The Middle East part 2

[theavonlady 2]

I don't know what you have to say on this Avon Lady

First of all, it was Barak who unilaterally retreated from Lebanon - not Sharon.

First of all, it was Acecombat's post that mentioned Sharon in Lebanon, not bmgarcangel's.

I know that. BMG's seemed to follow through on Ace's, hence the response to BMG in general.

Quote[/b] ]

Second, Sharon is suggesting that Israel unilaterally retreat from areas of Judea and Samaria. Just the opposite of your "push out" accusations.

I wouldn't be too impressed considering the Oslo agreement required Israel to retreat from areas of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) 11 years ago.

The Oslo Agreements are long dead but if you insist, I suggest you read the Declaration of Principles in total and then you might understand why what you just said isn't true.

Quote[/b] ] But where does Oslo call for the "voluntary transfer" of Palestinians to Jordan, as is being proposed by Israeli MP Uzi Cohen?

It doesn't. One of many ideas. Better than Oslo - that's for sure.

Quote[/b] ]

Third, no one would be pushing no one had the Palestinians not started the war over 3 years ago. So direct your questions to the other side, please.

Do you still honestly believe that 3/4 million Palestinians fled their homes, farms and property back in 1948,

I'm not talking about 1948. Neither were you when referring to the Oslo accords.

To answer your question:

Quote[/b] ]Do you still honestly believe that 3/4 million Palestinians fled their homes, farms and property back in 1948,

of their own free will to live the rest of their lives in refugee camps?

"Still"? I never said this in the past. You are confused as always.

Quote[/b] ]According to the other side (and the UN) they were pushed.

Read what the "other side" said back then, not what they've revised history into today:

"“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.â€

- Haled al Azm, Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387.

Sorry. I can foretell that this has the potential to take up too much of my day and I've said most of the above a million posts ago.

Carry on.

[Bernadotte 0]

Second, Sharon is suggesting that Israel unilaterally retreat from areas of Judea and Samaria. Just the opposite of your "push out" accusations.

I wouldn't be too impressed considering the Oslo agreement required Israel to retreat from areas of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) 11 years ago.

The Oslo Agreements are long dead but if you insist, I suggest you read the Declaration of Principles in total and then you might understand why what you just said isn't true.

Using your reference, according to ARTICLE XIII on REDEPLOYMENT OF ISRAELI FORCES:

Quote[/b] ]1. After the entry into force of this Declaration of Principles, and not later than the eve of elections for the Council, a redeployment of Israeli military forces in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip will take place, in addition to withdrawal of Israeli forces carried out in accordance with Article XIV.

2.  In redeploying its military forces, Israel will be guided by the principle that its military forces should be redeployed outside populated areas.

So then please explain how you can possibly say that the Oslo agreement did not require Israel to retreat from areas of the West Bank.

Quote[/b] ]But where does Oslo call for the "voluntary transfer" of Palestinians to Jordan, as is being proposed by Israeli MP Uzi Cohen?

It doesn't. One of many ideas. Better than Oslo - that's for sure.

Do you honestly consider that idea to be sane?  LOL...  I mean, what if Arafat proposed the "voluntary transfer" of Israelis to Brooklyn.  

Quote[/b] ]Do you still honestly believe that 3/4 million Palestinians fled their homes, farms and property back in 1948,

of their own free will to live the rest of their lives in refugee camps?

"Still"? I never said this in the past. You are confused as always.

But there's not much point in proving you said it as long as you are so willing to defend it.

Quote[/b] ]According to the other side (and the UN) they were pushed.

Read what the "other side" said back then, not what they've revised history into today:

"“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.â€

- Haled al Azm, Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387.

So now you are saying that 3/4 million Palestinians left their homes, farms and property to live in refugee camps because the Syrian PM told them to.

And how does your version of history explain not allowing those people back to their homes?

What was Israel's official excuse for demolishing over 400 Palestinian towns and villages?

In other words, your claim that the pushing started with the Palestinians 3 years ago is utter nonesense.  

[Oligo 1]

You know, both sides in this little conflict fought over the patches of land both sides claim their own are fundamentalists. Thus it is impossible ever to discuss anything rationally with either party, since neither side uses reason, they use only emotion. What's even more impossible is for the parties to discuss anything with each other.

It all comes down to media coverage. And most of all, to media coverage in the western countries, which are mostly christian (especially U.S.). The jews have the advantage of being "the chosen people of god" as said in the bible, the holy book of christians. Also, jews have the "ultimate victim" perk of the holocaust, which increases their lovability even more. Finally, jews are a very very sophisticated people, which gets them many points in the west. The only disadvantage the jews have is that they speak that special language of theirs, which to an untrained ear sounds a lot like the gibberish the arabs speak. Luckily, to offset this, jews usually speak very good english.

The palestinians or whatever you call them don't score so well in the media chart. They have a religion, which has traditionally been the enemy of christianity throughout history. They have no special victimhood perks. They come across as savages, who do not articulate their plight with finely tuned Oxford english. Instead, when you're filming them, you have to use subtitles (it's very bad to force people to read) and then all they have to say is "With gods help we will destroy the infidels." Their politicians sound pretty much the same as the mobs, when they should be saying sophisticated things like: "We won't be the next checoslovakia".

That's how it goes, people. We only want to save fluffy, lovable things. So those pals better start coming up with some media lovability or they're going to have to voluntarily relocate to Jordan.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]That's how it goes, people. We only want to save fluffy, lovable things. So those pals better start coming up with some media lovability or they're going to have to voluntarily relocate to Jordan.

So when Hamas or other groups are beginning to clothe themselfs as Teletubies or mupets we gonna start to like them?

Elmo likes explosions...

[m21man 0]

I wonder much explosives Tinky-Winky can carry in his purse .

[miles teg 1]

Actually he has a strong point about the media. If Hamas and Islamic Jihad began to loudly support those soldiers who have defected as good compassionate people and if they pledged to stop attacks if the IDF/IAF do the same (unlike the last cease fire where they were still arresting and assassinating Hamas leaders), then I think we'd have a real chance for peace, especially if the Palistinian extremists began to show a little more compassion. But if they stick to their "DEATH TO ALL JEWS" mantra then they wil have lost a golden opportunity for peace and for their own homeland. The main hinderance is the settlement issue, and Jerusalem. But I truly believe that these are hurdles that can be overcome.

Right now I think Sharon is actually really trying hard to find peace. But he's also very conservative and often very stubborn. He is capable of changing his mind and I don't think he's an evil person. But right now he's suffering from a lack of support from all sides because his policies piss off all Israeli political parties.

One of the things that needs to happen is stronger efforts at dialog with Islamic extremists. Peace treaties with moderate Palistinians does nothing when the extremists ignore such treaties. It is incredibly difficult to establish such dialog, but it can be done. Even extremists are human beings and have hearts. You just have to find the key to their hearts whether it be ideological, religious, or something else (like $$$ money) to get them talking and listening to the other side.

Right now is truly a historic opportunity for that kind of very bold dialog. But it needs strong political leadership backing it up. If Sharon were to do that, he would be throwing his political career down the drain (and risk assassination). But if he truly reached out and made a strong showing of compassion towards the Palistinians I think it would soften many hard hearts amongst the Palistinian extremists. If he succeeded and used that to bring a final peace plan to the region he would be one of the greatest heroes in world history. If he failed, one of the greatest idiots in world history. Such bravery would have to be met with equal bravery on the part of the Palistinians, otherwise it would turn to treachery and even greater violence.

But my feeling is that it would create a very powerful feeling of hope and of reconciliation. It has been done in other conflicts even worse then this one so it is not a fool's errand by any means. It just needs a very solid understanding of the mindsets of extremists on both sides of the conflict.

But is anyone there trying to foster this kind of event to happen? No. America is supposed to fullfill that role but so far have not. The EU? The Israelies don't trust them. The UN? Same deal, no trust. That just leaves America and right now the Bush administration is dropping the ball.

So unless we work or live in the region, all we can do is pray for peace there. Peace between the Israelies and Palistinians would be a more powerful blow to terrorism then any invasion, assassination, or weapon could ever deliver.

But if we continue the doctrine of violence against violence, then the only solution is genocide of all Arabs (and all Muslims) because that is the logical conclusion of the war on terror.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

...I think we'd have a real chance for peace, especially if the Palistinian extremists began to show a little more compassion.  But if they stick to their "DEATH TO ALL JEWS" mantra then they wil have lost a golden opportunity for peace and for their own homeland.

Perhaps you missed this:

Quote of the month:

Quote[/b] ]Israel is too strong to defeat and the Palestinians have no choice but to live with the Jewish state in peace.  Let us be frank. We cannot destroy Israel. The practical solution is for us to have a state alongside Israel.

-- Senior Hamas leader Abu Shanab

Abu Shanab was the third most powerful Hamas leader, fluent in English, American educated and articulate.  He was one of the architects of the summer cease fire and at the end of August Israel killed him and a number of bystanders with hellfire rockets.

The main hinderance is the settlement issue, and Jerusalem.

What about security for Israel?  What about Palestinian borders?  What about Palestinian refugees.  And what about the property that Israel took from 3/4 million Palestinians in the late 40s and early 50s?

Right now I think Sharon is actually really trying hard to find peace.

How do you figure?

One of the things that needs to happen is stronger efforts at dialog with Islamic extremists.

I agree.  Sharon clearly doesn't agree.

Peace treaties with moderate Palistinians does nothing when the extremists ignore such treaties.

...Same for moderate and extremist Israelis.

It is incredibly difficult to establish such dialog, but it can be done.  Even extremists are human beings and have hearts.  You just have to find the key to their hearts whether it be ideological, religious, or something else (like $$$ money) to get them talking and listening to the other side.

And what would you say to the Israeli settlers' parties that represent ~30% of Sharon's government and are right now threatening to walk out of the coalition if Sharon dismantles even a few of the 100s of settlements?

But if he truly reached out and made a strong showing of compassion towards the Palistinians I think it would soften many hard hearts amongst the Palistinian extremists.  If he succeeded and used that to bring a final peace plan to the region he would be one of the greatest heroes in world history.

At age 26, Colonel Ariel Sharon lead a commando raid to demolish homes in the Palestinian village of Qibiya, killing around 69 civilians.  He claimed that he thought the homes were empty.

In the early 80s, an Israeli investigating committee found Sharon indirectly responsible for the massacre of over 800 Palestinian women, children and elderly in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps near Beirut.  That same Israeli committee recommended that Sharon never again be allowed to hold a governmental position as high as Defence Minister. LOL...

Hitler probably stands a better chance of finding a soft spot in Israeli hearts than Sharon does with Palestinians.

But is anyone there trying to foster this kind of event to happen?  No.

Yes.

America is supposed to fullfill that role but so far have not.

Why America?  They've been sending billions in military aid to one side for decades.  America needs to stop brokering the conflict before it can start to broker any peace.

Peace between the Israelies and Palistinians would be a more powerful blow to terrorism then any invasion, assassination,  or weapon could ever deliver.

Couldn't agree more.

[aj_addons 0]

ive got say that i never find the Israelies choice of assaination ordance very apropriate a hellfire for just one man, come off it think youre going to miss so youll just send nuke over just to make sure  a sniper rifle is an assaination weapon a bloody rockets, tankshells and apcache 30mm arent  

[theavonlady 2]

At age 26, Colonel Ariel Sharon lead a commando raid to demolish homes in the Palestinian village of Qibiya, killing around 69 civilians.  He claimed that he thought the homes were empty.

Background on Qibiya.

It is false to state that the raid's purpose was to demolish houses. It was to kill Jordanian Fedayen in reprisal for the constant cross border Jordanian attacks on Israel.

Quote[/b] ]In the early 80s, an Israeli investigating committee found Sharon indirectly responsible for the massacre of over 800 Palestinian women, children and elderly in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps near Beirut. That same Israeli committee recommended that Sharon never again be allowed to hold a governmental position as high as Defence Minister. LOL...

LOL indeed. get your facts straight again. The Kahan Commissions concluding words on Sharon are:

"We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which "the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office."

The full Kahan Commission Report can be read here, should you ever bother.

Quote[/b] ]Hitler probably stands a better chance of finding a soft spot in Israeli hearts than Sharon does with Palestinians.

That would explain why Palestinians admire Hiltler. Always have. Always will.

But once again, you've got it wrong on the Israeli side.

[theavonlady 2]

ive got say that i never find the Israelies choice of assaination ordance very apropriate a hellfire for just one man, come off it think youre going to miss so youll just send nuke over just to make sure  a sniper rifle is an assaination weapon a bloody rockets, tankshells and apcache 30mm arent  

Why don't you come here and show us how, with your great experience and military expertise?

[Acecombat 0]

ive got say that i never find the Israelies choice of assaination ordance very apropriate a hellfire for just one man, come off it think youre going to miss so youll just send nuke over just to make sure  a sniper rifle is an assaination weapon a bloody rockets, tankshells and apcache 30mm arent  

Why don't you come here and show us how, with your great experience and military expertise?

Its a simple tactic avon cant you see it ?

You use a gun/sniper rifle for a assasination not a HELLFIRE ....

OR use operatives on ground to sabotage the car with a c-4 or something , thats the limit for an assisanation i'd say if you go beyond it that stupid and unethical , IDF isnt a terrorist force or is it? (that before you start showing me examples of how hamas blows up a civilian bus ).

The IDF should show professinalism in these cases not gung-ho'ism which in the eyes of palestinians looks more likely a racism issue since all it does is generate doubts in other peoples mind as to whether the IDF really cares about the palestinian civilians while performing such acts or are they just cannon fodder to them ....

[EiZei 0]

Or design a special low-powered missile, its a car, not a MBT ffs.

[theavonlady 2]

Its a simple tactic avon cant you see it ?  

You use a gun/sniper rifle for a assasination not a HELLFIRE ....

Another brilliant military tactician.

How far away from the border are the targets?

What if it's deep within an urban area?

What if your intel is by the second? For example, an informer calls to say the target has left his house now and is entering his car?

You're all so smart!

Quote[/b] ]OR use operatives on ground to sabotage the car with a c-4 or something,

That's been done, too, when possible.

Quote[/b] ]thats the limit for an assisanation i'd say if you go beyond it that stupid and unethical,

Why? The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab - you name it - Israelis and we target the terrorists before they can carry out their attacks.

They wanted war. They got it.

Quote[/b] ]IDF isnt a terrorist force or is it? (that before you start showing me examples of how hamas blows up a civilian bus ).

To answer your question, no. It's an army, and, like its name, it's defending us. Talk to your Pals.

Quote[/b] ]The IDF should show professinalism in these cases not gung-ho'ism

There isn't a more professional army that would handle the same situation any better than the IDF.

Quote[/b] ]which in the eyes of palestinians looks more likely a racism issue since all it does is generate doubts in other peoples mind as to whether the IDF really cares about the palestinian civilians while performing such acts or are they just cannon fodder to them ....

Palestinians are cannon fodder to their own terrorists, who work out from residential areas, cowering behind those very same civilians.

[theavonlady 2]

Or design a special low-powered missile, its a car, not a MBT ffs.

Maybe they're working on it. In the meantime, that's what there is for firing from an Apache or Cobra. The objective is to guarantee to destruction of the terrorists in the car. As it is, there have been too many elimination failures with Hellfires, or anything else that may have been used until now.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Palestinians are cannon fodder to their own terrorists, who work out from residential areas, cowering behind those very same civilians.

What, you expect them to build special houses away from the rest of civilisation, with signs on them indicating a palestinian militant lives there? Naturally they operate among civilians, as their targets usually are found in civilian areas. And they live themselves in civilian areas, posing as civilians, because otherwise they'd be whiped out in no time.

Clearly they stand no chance what so ever against the IDF in open conflict. So they use geurilla tactics. Not very strange.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Palestinians are cannon fodder to their own terrorists, who work out from residential areas, cowering behind those very same civilians.

What, you expect them to build special houses away from the rest of civilisation, with signs on them indicating a palestinian militant lives there? Naturally they operate among civilians, as their targets usually are found in civilian areas. And they live themselves in civilian areas, posing as civilians, because otherwise they'd be whiped out in no time.

Clearly they stand no chance what so ever against the IDF in open conflict. So they use geurilla tactics. Not very strange.

Then they can expect what they're getting.

Not very strange.

[WhoCares 0]

... and the neighbours and children on the street get their share as well, no matter whether they are in any way related to the deeds of the terrorist... It's okay to blame the terrorist to hide under civilians, but that does not neccessarily justify to endanger those civilians while you go for the terrorist.

[theavonlady 2]

... and the neighbours and children on the street get their share as well, no matter whether they are in any way related to the deeds of the terrorist... It's okay to blame the terrorist to hide under civilians, but that does not neccessarily justify to endanger those civilians while you go for the terrorist.

So our citizen's should be the cannon fodder so that they can dance in the streets and hand out candies when the next suicide bomber succeeds in his/her mission?

Sorry. Don't ask us to do what you yourself wouldn't do under the same circumstances.

[theavonlady 2]

It's okay to blame the terrorist to hide under civilians, but that does not neccessarily justify to endanger those civilians while you go for the terrorist.

The Geneva Convention justifies it.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Another brilliant military tactician.

How far away from the border are the targets?

What if it's deep within an urban area?

What if your intel is by the second? For example, an informer calls to say the target has left his house now and is entering his car?

Well i am not ion the army and certainly not a military advisor but i got one thing thats called "Common sense" ... yes read it carefully ...

Its common sense to use means that will result in less colateral damage , i dont give a damn how far away from israel the target is this isnt OFP this isnt a video game where go in to kill a terrorist to save lives and come out with more people dead , the army if its so sincere in wiping out terrorists should be careful in a civilian area.

But then according to avons famous military usa approved doctrine probably states otherwise i wonder when will you guys use a Tomahawk next time i mean the targets only gonna be there for 5 seconds no need for the chopper just Tomahawk the place .

Quote[/b] ]Why? The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab - you name it - Israelis and we target the terrorists before they can carry out their attacks.

So according to you Hamas and co are an army?

Then why call them a terrorist ?

First you need to clear out your confusion , whos made war on you and whos attacking you first find that out .... this sound smore like Bush attacking Iraq because WTC fell down

Quote[/b] ]Palestinians are cannon fodder to their own terrorists, who work out from residential areas, cowering behind those very same civilians.

You got a better plan on how to operate with only small arms against a full fledge then all us humble folks would be all ears.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]So our citizen's should be the cannon fodder so that they can dance in the streets and hand out candies when the next suicide bomber succeeds in his/her mission?

Quote[/b] ]The Geneva Convention justifies it.

This point has been covered though.Sure you can say that because the Terrorist group's target civilians directly theire moral justification is lost ,as this type of assymetric warfare isn't allowed by international law.However ,the figure's show that the IDF kill's aproximatly 3 times more innocent civilians indirectly than the Terrorist cell's kill directly.Now either you are of the oppinion that the value of a Jewish life is greater than that of a Palestinian ,or you are of the oppinion that for ex 1800 death innocent Palestinian civilians by "indirect" attacks is more justfied than 600 death Israeli civilians by direct attacks.

[theavonlady 2]

Well i am not ion the army and certainly not a military advisor but i got one thing thats called "Common sense" ... yes read it carefully ...

I even ran it through my spell checker.

Quote[/b] ]Its common sense to use means that will result in less colateral damage , i dont give a damn how far away from israel the target is this isnt OFP this isnt a video game where go in to kill a terrorist to save lives and come out with more people dead

It's also not a not-too-long-ago game named Lemmings, where you might as well jump off of a clif and kill yourself.

Quote[/b] ]the army if its so sincere in wiping out terrorists should be careful in a civilian area.

I'm again waiting for all that great military advice which, by your own admittance, you're not qualified to give.

Quote[/b] ]But then according to avons famous military usa approved doctrine probably states otherwise i wonder when will you guys use a Tomahawk next time i mean the targets only gonna be there for 5 seconds no need for the chopper just Tomahawk the place .

It's your wisecrack suggestion to use more potent weapons - not mine.

Thanks for the advice. I'll pass it to the higher-ups.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Why? The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab - you name it - Israelis and we target the terrorists before they can carry out their attacks.

So according to you Hamas and co are an army?

No.

Quote[/b] ]Then why call them a terrorist ?

Because that's what they are, based on their declarations, acts and deeds.

Quote[/b] ]First you need to clear out your confusion , whos made war on you and whos attacking you first find that out .... this sound smore like Bush attacking Iraq because WTC fell down

Why don't you clear it up for the folks out there in forum-land.

Quote[/b] ]

Palestinians are cannon fodder to their own terrorists, who work out from residential areas, cowering behind those very same civilians.

You got a better plan on how to operate with only small arms against a full fledge then all us humble folks would be all ears.

Put your weapons down and stop the war.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now either you are of the oppinion that the value of a Jewish life is greater than that of a Palestinian

Obviously avon said it even if covertly but this quote clears it up pretty much ..

Quote[/b] ]The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab

According to her every palestinian has got a plan worked out on how to take down Israel , it kinda puts the Mullah formula of jews taking over the world to shame

[theavonlady 2]

However ,the figure's show that the IDF kill's aproximatly 3 times more innocent civilians indirectly than the Terrorist cell's kill directly.Now either you are of the oppinion that the value of a Jewish life is greater than that of a Palestinian ,or you are of the oppinion that for ex 1800 death innocent Palestinian civilians by "indirect" attacks is more justfied than 600 death Israeli civilians by direct attacks.

Where have you been picking up your phoney figures?

Here are the figures, updated to May 21, 2003.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Now either you are of the oppinion that the value of a Jewish life is greater than that of a Palestinian

Obviously avon said it even if covertly but this quote clears it up pretty much ..

I never said it. Put your money where your mouth is.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The Palestinians declared war on Israel. They send terrorists over constantly to blow up, shoot, stab

According to her every palestinian has got a plan worked out on how to take down Israel , it kinda puts the Mullah formula of jews taking over the world to shame

Now your avoiding the issue and talking semantics and gibberish.