Admiral Kuznetsov (russian naval fleet mod)

[Messiah 2]

Those small British carriers were pretty much useless – they couldn't even defend their own battle groups effectively.

fancy backing that claim up?

if they were so useless, how come the same carriers are in service today?

[Gedis 0]

I can argue about knowing everything, for every people it isn't possible, how much you try to know everything about that subject...

well... i have brother who is very huge(bigger than me) millitary fan sometimes i ask his opinion... so two heads can make more accurate decission...

all my family, father, grandfather and etc. were military.

Father was engineer, grand father was a major!!!(you kwon how difficult to get to the majors rank, especialy, when you are not russian, but Lithuanian?)

Oh, many storyes i have heard from them...

Grandfather, was a 13 years old boy when WWII begun. There were episodes when he ran from German Stuka dive-bomber making a bomb run on him; when he first fired a gun, when it's recoil was close to broke his shoulder(i think it was PPSH-41); just after the war, without completing graduation (only 10 class he completed then) he entered soviet union army, from private rank he made to major; he traveled around all soviet union...; second thing was were interesting, did you know that soviets were in conflict with china in 1969 don't remember exactly... ? some chineese people attacked russian soldiers guarding soviet border and few hours later russians were preparing to move 1 AIR FORCE ARMY(do you know how there were aircraft in it? to 1000 different aircraft) and maintaining the ground forces moving to russian border. When all forces were prepared, in possitions, russian generals decided to use wery new, deadly and effective weapon to show to chineese what they are against and they ordered some BM-21 Grad to fire theyr all ammo against one target.

About that Grad, it was just enterind the soviet ground forces, my grand father also were in it's secret testings fireing! The china got back to it's place and apologysed soviet official about "someones provocations".

Also my grand father was land based bomber crews training officer, he trained pilots about Tu-16,22 characteristics, equipment and etc...

He also were Mi-4 and Mi-8 "trainer" for the crews, i remember he told me the coolest part about that, when he trained to land mi-8 from 60 meters with turned of engines

so newies pilots did broke not only one Mi-8 tail... ;)

I remember when he told about a catastrofy, his trained pilot, during night flight at low altitude with mi-4 hit electricity wires and died in crash, grandfather said, that mi-4 main rotor blaide cut the 30 cm wide electricity pole.

He fels bad about that tragedy, because he trained that pilot... :/

Oh i remember talking about Jak-28, Jak-24 chopper (like Chinook) when there were pilots, moths training to fly it and soviet officials didn't agreed to take that chopper to service, pilots were very unhappy training for nothing... about Tu-4(like b-29) when 4 of then got back from Korean conflict...

also about Tu-16 and especialy Tu-22, from his words: "the best bomber from that time" about MIG-25 when he was assigned to chemically clean it from radiation and etc... it was very very secret plane, that even he wasn't allowed to do cleaning and he said more, that mig-25 some time after escaped from soviet union to JAPAN...

well there are plenty historys from him...

he was an officer, an pilot trainer and even biological, chemical and nuclear weapons expert.

about father, he said that his friend from the russian navy said that russian special forces are the best...

that friend said, that there were navys practice and they were prepared to engage "enemys" ships, but, suddenly, from nowhere specnaz sabotaged theyr ship, practice were over for them and that friend was astonished by russian specnaz...

i think for this time it's enough about storys

Messiah,

and i dont think that they were useless, harries from those carriers did great job bombing the targets and fighting off the fighters

[cbfasi 4]

CBFASI,

sorry, my mistake, i meant to say HMS Invincible.

and only by argentinian sources, U.K. government denies that, but still... After Flakland conflict almost all british fleet returned back to the U.K., but what HMS Invincible was doing in sea, far from people eyes for at least 1 month?

It couldn't patrol Falkland islands because RAF drowe there air force planes...

I thing HMS Invincible was reparing at the sea secretly, because just few months before built carrier cant take damage and quite serious... ;)

HMS Invincible didnt return from the Falklands along with the rest of the UK Main fleet as she was waiting HMS Illustrious to take over as the facilities on the Falklands were not suitable for aircraft operations, and thus for a short period she was the only fully equipped airbase for flight operations.  

It wasnt till late July before HMS Invincible was replaced by HMS Illustrious.  HMS Invincible was suffering major problems with her gas turbines due to the length of time in constant use and the battering the ship wwas receiving from the south atlantic seas, neither of which she was designed to cope with.  Her designed role would of had her within days of a naval base and not active for months at a time with no rest..

The argentine reports of damage to Invincible are sheer falicy, no aircraft got close enough to do any damage with bombs or guns and damage from an exocet cannot be hidden and a ship as large as Invincible although could likely survive a hit would have been severaly damaged, beyond the ability to repair at sea, just see the damage to HMS Glamorgan, and the Royal Navy didn't hide it, also note we didnt even hide the extremely severe damage to other vessels such as RAF Tristram.  We had western press on biard which at the time where not as controlled as they shoud have been and it would have been reported in UK papers within days of it happening.  (UK press did after all report on other major losses the UK had)

A hit from an exocet would certainly have caused casualties if it had hit and I think you will find that after 20 years no-one is asking about missing relatives from the Falklands war, at least from the UK perspective (I cannot say what the Argentine perspective is)

[MontyVCB 0]

Kuznetsov is like a symbol, that russians can have aircraft carriers, but financial problems wont let to built new one, at least till 2010.

BTW - Thank you very much for the info

Now back to our discussion.

You are right - it is a symbol… a symbol of Russian incompetence. A long time ago, when the Soviets could actually build whatever they wanted, someone in the Navy General Staff had decided that Super Carriers were too expensive and vulnerable, and so Rushkies started building smaller "mini-carriers", like the ones the UK forces had during the Falklands war. That was a grave mistake. Those small British carriers were pretty much useless – they couldn't even defend their own battle groups effectively.

Obviously, if the USSR would ever challenge the US dominance of the high seas, the Soviet Navy would be obliterated – American super carriers would be able to provide adequate protection of their battle groups, wipe out those not numerous Russian air superiority navy fighters, and then… the battle would be over 'cause both sides of the conflict would use nukes.

But the point is – when Russians had a chance to build their own fleet of real super carriers, like Nimitz, they wasted it and instead made a bunch of less expensive, but also a whole lot less combat effective "mini-carriers". And this BIG Russian super carrier is like that silly "Buran" space shuttle – it does look pretty, but basically it's a waste of your taxpayers' money. As to those huge and "well-armed" Soviet ships... well, you know, "bigger" does not always means "better".  

In the XXI century bro - air superiority is the key and Russains don't stand a chance.

you don't half talk crap, the british carriers maybe be small  but they are very effective, and pickets are the main line of defense from enemy vessels and aircraft, not a carrier.....

[Gedis 0]

well, i see that you are experts about falklands war...

but if the exocet fired at HMS Invincible didn't reached it's target, there were 4 skyhawks, flying just on the exocet smoke tail (that they wouldn't be locked by the radars, exocets altitude reaching ship is 5-15m. so skyhawks used also low altitude from radar detection) carrying bomb load, one or to skyhawks dropped their bombs unprecisely and only one skyhawk returned from the very brave mission, sad that you don't want to listen to that pilots words, he saw smoke from HMS Invincibles aircraft hanger... :/

so there was at least comfermed bomb attack on invincible

besides I saw all that pictures about returning "wounded" ships... and i could say, argentineans did their best to achieve ship damages... ;)

besides, what you will say that there were one launched exocet missiles on HMS Hermes and one on the Atlatic Conveyor? you will also claim that that didn't happed? you see, exocet launched on the HMS Hermes was droved from it by HMS Hermes decoys and it striked Atlantic Conveyor and second did striken it, and all the Atlantic Conveyor burned out with almost all aircraft on board, only one Chinook saved himself ;)

besides, in falkland conflict argentineans hand only 5 exocet missiles for the Super Etendards. So one sinked HMS Shefield, Atlantic Conveyor burned out with two exocets, HMS Invincible was probably was hit by one exocet and i don't remember what HMS frigate exocet sanked...

but there are huge arguing about HMS Invicible

[cbfasi 4]

well, i see that you are experts about falklands war...

but if the exocet fired at HMS Invincible didn't reached it's target, there were 4 skyhawks, flying just on the exocet smoke tail (that they wouldn't be locked by the radars, exocets altitude reaching ship is 5-15m. so skyhawks used also low altitude from radar detection) carrying bomb load, one or to skyhawks dropped their bombs unprecisely and only one skyhawk returned from the very brave mission, sad that you don't want to listen to that pilots words, he saw smoke from HMS Invincibles aircraft hanger... :/

so there was at least comfermed bomb attack on invincible

besides I saw all that pictures about returning "wounded" ships... and i could say, argentineans did their best to achieve ship damages... ;)

besides, what you will say that there were one launched exocet missiles on HMS Hermes and one on the Atlatic Conveyor? you will also claim that that didn't happed? you see, exocet launched on the HMS Hermes was droved from it by HMS Hermes decoys and it striked Atlantic Conveyor and second did striken it, and all the Atlantic Conveyor burned out with almost all aircraft on board, only one Chinook saved himself ;)

besides, in falkland conflict argentineans hand only 5 exocet missiles for the Super Etendards. So one sinked HMS Shefield, Atlantic Conveyor burned out with two exocets, HMS Invincible was probably was hit by one exocet and i don't remember what HMS frigate exocet sanked...

but there are huge arguing about HMS Invicible

Skyhawks never got near Invincible thats fact and actaully not possible unless Argentine pilots are suicidal.  Suicidal because they did not have the range to go the distance to the target area and home.  Argentine pilots where incredibly brave but not stupid they wanted to live.

The exocets launched at Hermes did indeed get spoofed by chaff from Hermes which unfortunately hit the Merchant Vessel Atlantic Conveyor, this is a well known fact and why would we deny something that the UK press had full knowledge about, this country does have a free and uncontrolled press (I know we would like some decent control but its the price of free will)

The Chinook as such did not save itself, it was on board HMS Hermes at the time having just offloaded soem stores, and the Navy actaully wanted to push it over the side as it took up valuable deck space.  A quick decision by senior staff suggested the Chinook be deployed to another vessel rather than loose its ability.

As for the large amount of discussion about HMS Invincible, it doesn't appear to be the case in the Western world.......

Anyway....

I hope your model of the Admiral Kuznetsov is made using far better research material than those you are aware of relating to the Falklands War.

I look forward to after 2012 when I believe a large number of documents will be de-classified.  The full records of the Falklands War from the British perspective including full damage reports which have to be acurate to ensure that earlier problems and damage do not affect a ship later in its career.

[Gedis 0]

so and i think that it's too much to argue about...

i just say not only U.K. arguments, but also argentinean... about the thruth, we will all know exactly what happened in the future;)

Falklands war was a huge lesson for the both sides and it costs is people lives, nevertheless those mistakes were corrected... and i think those people should always be remembered as they proved that technology should be updated everytime...

well about kuznetsov... i have two more sources about kuznetsovs superiority, it's a magazines, based on pilot Viktor Pugachiov words. The first pilot, who had succesfuly landed on Kuznetsov with Su-27K(Su-33 first prototypes).

There are writen about 1996 kuznetsovs sea run, where NATOs navy and air forces were "spying" kuznetsov from every side and this run proved for Nato that A.K. is not a single ship what NATO could do spying on it...

[cbfasi 4]

I certainly look forward to seeing and using your carrier, the East do need a carrier for flight ops and the AK is certainly a good choice.

Will be watching this topic with interest.

[agent556 5]

the kuznetsov does have some very good points about it, such as the large ammount of weaponry and the fact that it uses a slant in front instead of catapults. with that, you dont get any catapult failures lose a plane due to it :P

[Gedis 0]

also no reloading time like catapults it just depends on how fast you will manage to take plane to the start position ;)

[ramboofp 0]

VSEM IZVENI

I am MIA

i change my pc but.....

i am realy unluky because the shop send me the wrong graphik card :/

so i send back the pc to the shop

if i am luky i will come back in one week

curently i havn t a pc :/

[Keller_777 0]

I can argue about knowing everything, for every people it isn't possible, how much you try to know everything about that subject...

well... i have brother who is very huge(bigger than me) millitary fan sometimes i ask his opinion... so two heads can make more accurate decission...

all my family, father, grandfather and etc. were military.

Father was engineer, grand father was a major!!!(you kwon how difficult to get to the majors rank, especialy, when you are not russian, but Lithuanian?)

Oh, many storyes i have heard from them...

Grandfather, was a 13 years old boy when WWII begun. There were episodes when he ran from German Stuka dive-bomber making a bomb run on him; when he first fired a gun, when it's recoil was close to broke his shoulder(i think it was PPSH-41); just after the war, without completing graduation (only 10 class he completed then) he entered soviet union army, from private rank he made to major; he traveled around all soviet union...; second thing was were interesting, did you know that soviets were in conflict with china in 1969 don't remember exactly... ? some chineese people attacked russian soldiers guarding soviet border and few hours later russians were preparing to move 1 AIR FORCE ARMY(do you know how there were aircraft in it? to 1000 different aircraft) and maintaining the ground forces moving to russian border. When all forces were prepared, in possitions, russian generals decided to use wery new, deadly and effective weapon to show to chineese what they are against and they ordered some BM-21 Grad to fire theyr all ammo against one target.

About that Grad, it was just enterind the soviet ground forces, my grand father also were in it's secret testings fireing! The china got back to it's place and apologysed soviet official about "someones provocations".

Also my grand father was land based bomber crews training officer, he trained pilots about Tu-16,22 characteristics, equipment and etc...

He also were Mi-4 and Mi-8 "trainer" for the crews, i remember he told me the coolest part about that, when he trained to land mi-8 from 60 meters with turned of engines

so newies pilots did broke not only one Mi-8 tail... ;)

I remember when he told about a catastrofy, his trained pilot, during night flight at low altitude with mi-4 hit electricity wires and died in crash, grandfather said, that mi-4 main rotor blaide cut the 30 cm wide electricity pole.

He fels bad about that tragedy, because he trained that pilot... :/

Oh i remember talking about Jak-28, Jak-24 chopper (like Chinook) when there were pilots, moths training to fly it and soviet officials didn't agreed to take that chopper to service, pilots were very unhappy training for nothing... about Tu-4(like b-29) when 4 of then got back from Korean conflict...

also about Tu-16 and especialy Tu-22, from his words: "the best bomber from that time" about MIG-25 when he was assigned to chemically clean it from radiation and etc... it was very very secret plane, that even he wasn't allowed to do cleaning and he said more, that mig-25 some time after escaped from soviet union to JAPAN...

well there are plenty historys from him...

he was an officer, an pilot trainer and even biological, chemical and nuclear weapons expert.

about father, he said that his friend from the russian navy said that russian special forces are the best...

that friend said, that there were navys practice and they were prepared to engage "enemys" ships, but, suddenly, from nowhere specnaz sabotaged theyr ship, practice were over for them and that friend was astonished by russian specnaz...

i think for this time it's enough about storys

Lithuanian??? Oh, I see what you mean by that. Well, no, not really, unfortunately, I'm not a Lithuanian. I wish I was.

They are a great nation!

My grandaddy was a major too.

It's good to see we have something in common.

I am not saying I know everything, as to those little UK carriers... well, this info is 100% correct. some UKF members will be pissed, but it's the truth.

Just some basic info for ya – about those "mighty" Migs and SUs in real life:> More than 50 Mig-21s were shot down in the 1972 Linebacker strikes during the Vietnam War. In July 1970 fearless Israeli fighters lured 16 Russian-flown Mig-21FMs into an ambush and shot down four of them without loss.

In June 1982 two US Navy F-14s were challenged by a pair of Libyan Su-22s over the Gulf of Sidra. The Tomcats destroyed the Su-22s using aim-9 missiles in a very brief engagement.

The scenario was repeated in 1991 when a pair of F-14s shot down two Libyan mig-23s. As you may or may not know, during the First Gulf War my favorite combat jet F-15 was the Coalition's primary Air-to-Air fighter and scored 35 victories. No fighter in history has matched the F-15's  90 to Zero kill-to-loss ratio, achieved in numerous air battles over the Middle East. F-16s flown by courageous Israeli and American pilots have shot down over 80 enemy fighters, but no F-16s have been lost in air-to-air combat. F-18s destroyed at least two Iraqi Migs in the Gulf War with no air-to-air losses. On at least one occasion F-18s bombed ground targets and engaged enemy fighters in the course of a single sortie.

Sure, Mig-29 carries big missiles, however, it has very poor range – only 350 miles. Mig-29 was followed by the Mig-29S, but the range is still less than most operators want.

And it's not the only serious drawback of the Mig-29.

[Keller_777 0]

Something you said before - "About us carrier group.US ships are not so filled with weaponary like russian ships."

> First, I didn't say that a US carrier would be able to destroy an entire battle group. I said that an American super carrier would be able to destroy an entire Russian fleet. A battle group is a peace of cake. As to "so full-of-weapons" rushkie boats… well, let's talk about "Missouri" Battleship. I don't think the US Navy still has these juggernauts, but "modern" American battleships had more firepower than any Russian combat vessel, and they didn't cost as much.

- "Kirov class heavy cruiser: nuclear powered, the biggest and strongest ship in the world, it has armor, no other ship has it!!! His weaponary is so deadly, russians mounted on it even newest S-300 rockets"

> I'm surprised they didn't put a propeller on the damn thing so that it could fly too. Alright, one more time - "Missouri" has plenty of armor. And there are other "armored" combat ships in the US Navy, it ain't something exceptional, you know. By all means, "Kirov" ain't the strongest ship in the world, and I'm sure you remember what happened to one famous "biggest ship in the world" – Titanic.

You should not believe in everything Russian military officials say – they lie all the time. Oh, I just thought of something – remember that famous incident when one guy from Germany landed his Cessna at the Red Square in Moscow? That was one of the funniest things I've ever heard. I mean, c'mon, Rushkies used to brag about their super-duper SA aa missile systems, and how their airspace was safe from any WESTern attack, and then they had managed to let not some sneaky F-117 but a civilian airplane cross the borders of Mother Russia and land in the very heart of Moscow!! Those SA-300 didn't help much, did they? God bless America!

[ag_smith 0]

Hell, yeah, maybe you guys could go back to the topic *hint, hint* Kuznetsov OFP addon. :P

So.... is anybody going to finish it or not? EddyD made excellent textures, but it still needs the script to put all the pieces together. It needs some basic defensive weaponery, it needs the arrestor cables system just like on Hawk's Nimitz, that will not destroy the planes immediately after landing. Roadway holes and proper sharp&smooth lighting has to be sorted out. The ship icon should be rescalled and all the unneeded pieces hidden from mission editor. Do I need to say more?

[Gedis 0]

keller_777,

man, you are really sick!

Firstly, how old are you? because your comments are... i even don't know how to say... maybe you are just jocking?!

because, there are NO heavy cruiser in us navy and you even talk about battleship missouri

quite funny, there are no battleship in service even in entire world!!!

what super duper carriers US navy have? ha?

you see, us navy's best ship (exept carriers) are ticonderoga aegis cruisers and it's weaponary can't be compared even with Slava class russian cruiser. Ticonderoga's weaponary is so weak...

haha... i think you are too young to discuss, you are very badly informed... ;)

about your aircraft dreams...

you know, russians, i mean ONLY RUSSIAN airforce has fully done and well built aircraft, other countrys, like middle est and etc. are equiped with russian aircraft export versions, those versions were and are very badly equiped, has radars that didn't work correctly and etc.

but you know why russians sell EXPORT versions? because, when Mig-25 was stollen from russia, it showed, that all russian secret technologyes would be revealed to nato and russians decided that they need to built tanks, aircraft, ships and other weaponary export versions...

to trick nato that russian weaponary is far bad than nato has... and it was ideal decission for russians... when nato researched all mig-25, they dont understood how this peace of metal could fly...

but russians had and has all their weapons fully completed, with all it's planed purposes and etc.

So TRICK THE NATO TACTICS comfermed :P

and i dont want to discuss with you, because you are saying shit, not reality

missouris are decomisioned ships, so the strongest ship in the world is Kirov class heavy cruiser, what do you think, who will fire first? Missoury with it's 406mm guns can hit ship till 40 km range, Kirov can fire his missiles at least from 150 km :P, armor... 10 missiles and missuory would be sinked and Kirov would continue striking other ship without any damage

ramboofp,

we are waiting your news...

[Jay L.Macrae 0]

Ramboofp & EddyD should get a new thread, this one is clogged...

[Keller_777 0]

when Mig-25 was stollen from russia, it showed, that all...

...that was going on in the USSR was one HUGE national tragedy. The truth is, that Mig-25 wasn't stolen - it was its pilot's only way to escape from Russian communists... it was his "Green Card", you know?

I think it was Reagan's administration that had decided to renovate three of those battleships… Each "renovated" vessel didn't cost as much as a single new US destroyer, and it definitely has a LOT more firepower than "Kirov".

Here's what was added:

- Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles (much better than those obsolete anti-ship missiles which "Kirov" has).

- various anti-missile systems (to destroy those ancient Russian anti-ship missiles )

- a few other things, like better electronics, new radars etc.

But you are right – these battleships have already retired from active duty. Unlike "Kirov".

As to those UK mini carriers… well, it's hard to tell – how many bombs did Argentinean pilots drop on the UK fleet? How many of those bombs successfully hit their targets but didn't detonate? Were Argentinean pilots able to sneak pass the UK air patrols and get close enough to fire or drop something nasty? Answer these questions and then tell me if a mini carrier is a good choice or not.

Best wishes!

[EricJ 763]

Ramboofp & EddyD should get a new thread, this one is clogged...

I agree, this is an addon topic, not Naval Warfare....

[Gedis 0]

heh, found a blueprint from Italeri models about Kuznetsov

Kuznetsovs blueprint by Italeri

ramboofp, how are you, any news about your projects?

[Gedis 0]

I have to keep this topic allive...

yesterday i downloaded Su-33 3D Studio Max model, it's beautiful! Tryed to import it into O2, but i'm not an expert of doing this... first tryed to import, but strange error occurs(maybe textures needs to be converted into tga, don't know exactly), tryed just to open 3ds file, but it took me 3hours of loading about 90% it into o2, i get bored to wait and decided to ask for your help...

that's how it looks...

so, maybe there are people who want to put their hands on russian navy fighter?

i could share this model...

P.S. in the readme it's not mentioned who's this model is, there's just writen cost: 10$...

[Hornet85 0]

maybe it got to high face cunt and dont whant to be loaded in O2?

[Gedis 0]

maybe, but this could be ether that my PC is too slow?

who want to test it loading on O2?

[eddyd 0]

where you DL the Su-33 from then ?

i can try upload in O2

[sanzinsky 0]

I wouldn't bother ig I were you, max stuff has always got too many polys. and if you try to reduce it, you'll end up doing the whole model from scratch eventually.

[Gedis 0]

don't know what to say

then Su-33 woun't be in ofp

but maybe Scar from RHS, would make it, because he is making Su-30 and Su-33 is only a bit shorter: folding wings/stabilyzers/tail/front antena, added small wings near cabin...

everything else i have, amazing quality drawings, paint schemes, videos, data, now downloading whole cockpit blueprints...

but it's only maybe

P.S. i forgot that RHS are making Su-25 as well, so Su-25UTG maybe will be born, just make a two seater and that's it...