THE UNSUNG MOD - communist campaign?

[Winters 1]

Originally the Viet Mihn was the communist army of vietnam that was formed to get independence for vietnam from the french. In 1941 when Japan occupied parts of the country they fought against them and received funding from both the americans and chinese. After the war the viet mihn attempted to take control of the country and thus the war against the french was sent into full gear with the french receiving a large amount of funding from the US.

In 1954 after the french were defeated in the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, the country was divided along the 17th parallel, it was only meant to be temporary until unifying elections could be held in 1956, the Viet Mihn (in 1954) took control of the communist north with Ho Chi Mihn appointed "Prime Minister".

South Vietnam then reneged on the 1954 agreement (with US approval) because they saw Ho Chi Mihn as a threat to democracy and feared because he was a "war hero" he would win any election held.

The result of this was guerillas forming in the south who were made up mostly of ex-viet mihn and also by others who opposed the anti-communist regime in the south and formed the National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam or Viet Cong as the US and South Vietnamese would call them.

We all know what happened next. . . .

[philcommando 0]

Communisim is a great sharing concept, however for it to be successful:-

1. it must be run by angels for humans are not divine mortals

2. it must be rich in resources and not dependent on imports

3. it must not be embroil in a financially ruining arms race, which broke russia's back and something osama is trying to do to to US and the world.

As mentioned before, whatever the politics, the party that cannot give food and a better life to its people will be given the boot, one way or another.

After WW2, Ho chi min's party was commonly known as the VietMinh, which  means freedom to Vietnam in vietnamese lingo. Communism or socialism is but a means to unite the uneducated peasants for freedom. France certainly did not wish to educate the peasants for they were needed to work the fields to keep France rich. Only selected sons from the ruling administrators were sent to France to be educated, and must be Catholics, comming home to be second fiddle to the french.

By 1954, they managed to kicked the french out and the ruling decadent monarchy led by playboy Bao Dai handed over the reins of government to Ho's sandal clad  followers, power over the entire nation. However, US, the then supporter of french interest and rabidly anti-communism, shortlived the united country and re-proped up the government by making use of Diem, a catholic, and thru international pressure to separate the country into half- north and south.

Most of the landed gentry and mainly catholics, who were in cahoots with the rapacious french  fled the north and settled in the south. Initailly the vietminh was a rally call to all vietnamese who wish to be free, but US realised the propoganda value of it and thru the use of the ruling southern government controlled media, change it to vietcong so that the southern peasants would not rally to 'freedom'and increasing feed with trump up tales of communism to frighten them.

There was no north and south in the hearts and mind of the Vietnamese, they were only separated as folks in different regions, just like a texan and a californian. However, due to allegiance and control by the police state of Diem, loyalties have to be declared and freedom of movement was severely curtailed. In the south, the mainly uneducated 'vietcong' were made up of more North vietnamese than southern peasants, supplied thru the Ho Chi Min trail. Most of the time, in battles, the 'vietcong' armies(?) were made of soldiers in black clad cothings of the North Vietnamese boys who patriotically answered the call of the nation to free their brothers in the south. In truth, there never was a 'vietcong'...they were all vietnamese - the Vietminh.

PS: If the NVA were an american type army, its general would have been cashiered in disgrace at the loses sustained in the major battles of Khe San and Tet Offensive. However, the organisation understood what odds they faced with the mighty US military might.

Its important to know and follow who your leaders are and may they be wise, cos your fathers, brothers, sons, relatives and friends are not cannon fodders. In war people do die, but make sure their deaths are worthy of their sacrifice. And those 2 offensives were tremendous sacrifices, for they no doubt lost the battles espacially in the Tet offensive for the cities were mainly uneducated fear ridden and regime sympathisers but they won the war as an educated american public opinion then started to turn from there.

However, do bear in mind that not ALL conflicts are the same.

Its one thing to fight for your country but its another thing to spread terror in ALL countries. May Osama and his band be brought to justice soon. Best regards to soldiers from the nations fighting the cause of freedom from fear and may God protect them all.

[Winters 1]

Thats not entirely true Phil as i pointed out in my previous post. The Viet Mihn and the Viet Cong were actually 2 seperate entities that existed at 2 seperate times.

The Vietcong was made up of former viet mihn and people from the south who was against the anti-communist south vietnam government.

[miles teg 1]

Offtime, I NEVER had a drill Sgt. tell me to hate an enemy.

Today at least the US military trains young men (and women) to be professional soldiers and not psychotic killing machines.

However you think I don't realize that *some* soldiers hate the enemy?  Of coarse I do.  I can't even say for certain that I wouldn't hate my enemy if I was in Iraq right now with my former unit where they are being shot at every day including many of my close friends who's lives are on the line.  They tell me of the horrific things they have seen which I will not repeat to anyone else.  

I'm also fully aware of the psychological need for many soldiers to hate and de-humanize an enemy in order to cope with having to take the lives of that enemy and often enemy civilians whether intentionally or accidentally.  I have a degree in psychology and I'm well aware of this and the reasons behind it.  So please don't lecture me about the ugliness of war.    

But to teach this hatred in video games is irresponsible.  In addition not all soldiers hate their enemy.  Many soldiers serve with honor, compassion, and decency.  Those are the virtues I was taught in the United States Army and are some of the reasons why I was proud to put on that uniform.  

I will try this mod out, but if the mod is spewing grossly exaggerated hatred and racism towards Vietnamese I will not support it.

Now please put the thread back on topic and lets discuss VC/NVA mission ideas that you guys might have if your're truly interested in making missions from their perspective.  If not then the moderators will probably kill the thread.   I talked about some mission ideas earlier but nobody responded to them.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

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i lecture you ?

and how you call this bullshit you just wrote ?

dont answer, keep your briliant thoughts for yourself  

Well since you already seem to know it all please tell me what your background is? How old are you? Do you have military experience? If not while you certainly don't have to listen to anything I say, it would be wise not to lecture me about things you don't have experience with...unless in fact you do.

If what I said is bullshit then please tell me why it is bullshit.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[philcommando 0]

Winters:.... there will be many interpretations of the war. There will be many disagreements, but ultimately the truth will prevail.

For an independent assesment, my personal recommendation would be the secret Pentagon Papers. It was a no holds barred thorough top secret proffesionally qualified research study ordered by McNamara to find out the truth of the historical conflict of vietnam stretching back centuries without fear or favour when the wool started to drop from his eyes in the late 60s, fortunately or unfortunately, leaked to the press in the early 70s, with further evidences agumented by other scholars as the later years lent a more clearer insight(or better hindsight) to the war. Cheers!

[philcommando 0]

Graft and Opposition political parties

-----------------------------------

Graft permeates thru the entire society of South Vietnam, from the humble street peddlar selling fried sugared ants to the major domo of public administration. It was so well entrenched that any south vietnamese who is not on the 'take' would be silenced - permenantly so that no one can rat on each other.

With the advent of US forces and its inevitable dollars into this agarian society, the poor became opportunists to enrich themselves to strive for the level of consumerism matching the US, where the american supermarket with its endless rows of goods and parking lots were the glimpses of heaven to simple folks like them, dont even need to tell them about disneyland.

Almost overnight, the cities where once were simple landmarks beckoning an ancient glorious past were pockmarked and garishly enhanced with the trappings of Las Vegas to tempt the american dollars into their lairs.

Therefore it is with no wonder that any ordinary Ngo or Xue would seek elective assembly, for all only vie to be the top dog of kickbats with a secret swiss bank account, as with most of the public administors of South Vietnam. There was huge contracts to be awarded, for Westmoreland alone created an almost first world infrastructure in South Vietnam - airports, harbours, military establishment, etc to support the protracted war.

Those who are not opportunistic enough or lost the opportunities were relegated to the countryside where one way or another, money could be made outta the kindness and naivette of the americans, espacially the aid agencies. Utimately it was the simple peasants who had no education and no oppportunity who bore the brunt of graft, for unlike in the west where graft money passes thru all hands with schools being built, hotels being built, science and research funded, employment created, grafts in Vietnam only ended up in the personal accounts of graftees and spent on overseas shopping binges. Only those who have the dollares get access to goods and the goodlife, but peasants will have to wait for their crops to grow and they too, have to pay tax for even the crops they grow to eat.

The other credible opposition were the Buddhist. For centuries, Vietnam had been a Buddhist society, but when France came along, along came the jesuit priests. Not that many were converted to catholicism, but enough to be in positions of power to humble the placcid Buddhists whom many were of that religion. Things came to a head in the early 60s as the Diems discriminated and crushed them mercilessly - defenseless monks at that. Monks were then overtly and covertly helping anyone who would kick out the despots.

Who were than capable of ruling Vietnam and stamping out corruption, improve the civilian life not by promises of a heavenly reward but a secular meritous opportunity for all and equal society, create at least a semblance of orders to the chaos inevitable in any revolution, furthermore enhanced by naive foreign interference in supporting a police state?

Wish u all the best in your campaigns.

[offtime 0]

Well since you already seem to know it all please tell me what your background is?   How old are you?  Do you have military experience?  If not while you certainly don't have to listen to anything I say, it would be wise not to lecture me about things you don't have experience with...unless in fact you do.

If what I said is bullshit then please tell me why it is bullshit.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

read my profile

all you say is bullshit, and i dont feel like explayning you anything dude, becouse your most priggish person i ever read on this forums.

simple ?

[Warrior Xâ„¢ 0]

Oh boy.....

This thread has become a 'I know more then you about the Vietnam war' thread. I'll just stick to the 'Yes please, i would like a Vietnam campaign made from the view of the NVA/VC and the US' type thread that it used to be.

*X shakes head up and down in rapid motion*

[Placebo 28]

Miles Teg & Offtime to see how two people with different opinions can discuss something look at Winters & PhilCommando's posts, you two were a whisker away from getting a 48hr PR and warning level increase. If you cannot participate in a constructive discussion under the theme of this thread then move on to another thread please.

[Winters 1]

Winters:.... there will be many interpretations of the war. There will be many disagreements, but ultimately the truth will prevail.

For an independent assesment, my personal recommendation would be the secret Pentagon Papers. It was a no holds barred thorough top secret proffesionally qualified research study ordered by McNamara to find out the truth of the historical conflict of vietnam stretching back centuries without fear or favour when the wool started to drop from his eyes in the late 60s, fortunately or unfortunately, leaked to the press in the early 70s, with further evidences agumented by other scholars as the later years lent a more clearer insight(or better hindsight) to the war. Cheers!

Im not disagreeing with your interpretations at all mate, i just wanted to clarify that the term "vietcong" although made up by the US and South Vietnamese was not meant to replace "Viet Mihn" as the former Viet Mihn themselves along with those from the south who opposed the anti-communist regime called themselves the "National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam" when they formed.

Vietcong was indeed a name given to them by the US and South Vietnamese. But although they were essentially the same they were also different (i know i am contradicting myself but 'Nam is full of contradictions) and existed in 2 seperate periods of time.

I think we are basically agreeing with each other but our symantics are a little different. Anyway, it's good to see young people on this forum discussing this as we are sort of repeating history but thats for another thread not this one.

[drow 0]

...cant, cant we all just get along?

[Pathy 0]

Winters is correct in his statements.

[PainDealer 0]

...cant, cant we all just get along?

apparently not

[drow 0]

Yea i was wrong,

Dictionary:

n. pl. Vietcong, also Viet Cong Abbr. VC

A Vietnamese belonging to or supporting the National Liberation Front of the nation formerly named South Vietnam.

adj.

Of or relating to the Vietcong.

(get this next part)

[Vietnamese, short for Cong San Viet Nam, Vietnamese Communist.]

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Yea i was wrong,

Dictionary:

n. pl. Vietcong, also Viet Cong Abbr. VC

A Vietnamese belonging to or supporting the National Liberation Front of the nation formerly named South Vietnam.

adj.

Of or relating to the Vietcong.

(get this next part)

[Vietnamese, short for Cong San Viet Nam, Vietnamese Communist.]

sorry i should have stated it was slang instead of a direct translation.

But winters is correct in his statements, again as you can see from this thread the US Gov't did not have a firm understanding of who they faced and why they faced them, they labelled the enemy as either VC or NVA and this mis-understanding was one reason why they lost vietnam.

[billybob2002 0]

Yea i was wrong,

Dictionary:

n. pl. Vietcong, also Viet Cong Abbr. VC

A Vietnamese belonging to or supporting the National Liberation Front of the nation formerly named South Vietnam.

adj.

Of or relating to the Vietcong.

(get this next part)

[Vietnamese, short for Cong San Viet Nam, Vietnamese Communist.]

sorry i should have stated it was slang instead of a direct translation.

But winters is correct in his statements, again as you can see from this thread the US Gov't did not have a firm understanding of who they faced and why they faced them, they labelled the enemy as either VC or NVA and this mis-understanding was one reason why they lost vietnam.

I would call the misnaming a little reason...hmm...something about Korea syndrome is a major reason why they lost and etc...

The american campaign should have a mission in which NVA kill a couple of your buddies and you chase them to the "border" but you cannot cross in to that area...or in the communist campaign, you are hunted by a patrol and must head for the "border"..

[philcommando 0]

The army of South Vietnam

---------------------------

During France's occupation of Vietnam, the only standing army were the french and local gendarmes armed with sticks. After they left Vietnam, US were the country to supply, armed and 'trained' the draftees of Diem's regime.

Training was a farce as draftees were just given weapons, most of the weapons were not even sighted, 2 weeks of tactics intro, and straight to the countryside to swagger with their uniforms at the peasants.

Not that the US advisors didnt do a good job, but they were hamstrung in every way by the Diem regime. Diem was more interested in US dollars linning his pockets than the american presence. Furthermore, most of the 'generals' he put in place were relatives with little or no military experience and of the same persuasion as him. Their sole purpose was to protect him against a coup and not the civilian population.

Some of the Vietminh who kicked out the french were nationalists and not communists. These soldiers, such as the famous ranger and para battalions, mostly catholics, formed the core of the elite units of the south vietnamese armies, controlled by Diem as his own personal bodyguards thru generals placed by him.

Very often in the early years, duplicity was practiced by the ARVN generals. Diem's mentality was to pocket the US dollars, let the US fight the communists for him and reserved the army as his personal fief to protect his rule. As such, despite the best military intelligence in the world thru US's help, the arvn generals used it to move into areas only when the vietcong left, so that there will be no casualties and would not be castigated or demoted by Diem, for Diem wanted his personal army intact for his own purpose, the country can go to hell for all he cared.

Many an advisor was chagrined with the hamstringing. Despite their plea to stand and fight and complains to the US commander, only cold reception was their reward as at that time, no one believe or wanted to believe the truth. Diem was a master and charming manipulator. The advisors had to resort to faking some intelligence just to get the arvn into the field to fight off the communists which was their job if they truly love their country.

Things got worse, with peasants and civilians fleeced dry, massive uprising against the Diem regime, vietcong gaining the countrysides, US sent its naive draftees,decendants of George Washington, in to stem the tide, fed with half truths and took control of the war, with the token arvn battalions to prop up the song and dance mickey mouse routines on US prime time television...till the horrors of war started massive stomach upheavels of the dinning homecrowd as the blinkers started dropping off the media's eyes.

As for the airforce, throughout the war they were american pilots, from the beginning of US involvement till the end of the war. The planes may have ARVN markings, but it was piloted by brave american pilots and with a token south vietnamese as crew member to fool the media. The hoax that the vietnamese were fighting was successfully carried out as the media, which had access to most places, were not allowed into airbase so that the truth would not be known. After the ground force left, the US pilots remained till the last days.

The local militia:-

----------------

Another farce created by good hearted naive americans. As the village heads were chose by Diem, loyalties were to him. These militia were armed with US supplied weapons, but more often than not ended up with the vietcong, for the militia were either force to fight and would run when his life is threatened as there was no training, or heck! make a fast buck selling off the rifle, keep quiet and the vietcong will let him live, afterall, war or no war, they still have to farm the land and feed the family. Majority of the US arms ended in the hands of the vietcong in this manner, much to the disgust and horror of US advisors at the administration.

The US army depended on intelligence to keep them informed on the whereabouts of the vietcong and these was the task of the militia. Once sighted, a call to the firebase and long range artillery or planes would be called in to fire at the area. More often than not, it was abused by the village head who controlls the militia, for anyone who crosses him or his family tend to get US shells on his hootch or his farmland....

Some say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions......

[billybob2002 0]

NM.... I will kill if you quote what I originally wrote..   ...seriously... Placebo I fear you..

[drow 0]

but remember everyone, just because its written on the internet doesnt mean its right.

as with all things about the Vietnam war you must get as many views on the subject at hand as u can and draw your own conclusions.

[philcommando 0]

The posts were only meant to give a background briefly to the mission makers who sought for information. As to the use of such information, it lies in the hand of the mission makers.

I may be wrong, i may be right, whatever it is, it happened and as the years rolled by, puzzle pieces come in place. Some will be in denial of the truth as the early 60s administrators were, some will fight tooth and nail for what they believed, as the defenseless kent state university students who were shot dead by the authorities, some will be filled with remorse over what they had done and rather let hate than forgiveness fill the emptiness, some will be too scarred by the experience, some will rather be silent and let things drop, and some will never allow the episode to be forgotten least we make the same mistake again.

If u truly seek the truth, u will know where to find it, for to ask me for the truth, u already are prepared NOT to believe my words, and all that i offer up will only serve as fodder for u to mangle and maul. Better u seek it for yourself for self enlightenment is better than the words of others, no matter how sweet or alluring they may be.

I hereby apologise humbly if i had offended anyone with these posts, for i seek nothing and no one owes me anything, only that the unvarnish truth( not the half truths that those who in power need to tell to keep them in power) be made known.

edit:- this was in reply to billyboob's earlier post, which he..er...edited...

[drow 0]

if that was because of what i said i didnt mean anything by it,

thanks for posting the info, its just that it seems that everything on the internet about vietnam was posted (on their site etc.) by a person who has a certain view and/or opinion of the war, so alot of the time its inaccurate and one sided info.

From what i see you post great posts and info, im just saying for everyone its not the word of god and to keep seeking more answers and info to check things against.

[Winters 1]

Hmmmm, i sense a group hug coming

While it's true that you shouldnt believe everything you read the history and events leading up to the war are pretty much black and white. It's what happened during the war and the reasons for it's end is whats open to interpretation.

[drow 0]

ok boys we better get back to the communist campaign subject,

did you guys think the resistance campaign was too hard? how u had to conserve your guns and ammo, and soldiers because they all carry over into the next mission.

I think that would be great for a VC campaign,

your thoughts?

[billybob2002 0]

The posts were only meant to give a background briefly to the mission makers who sought for information. As to the use of such information, it lies in the hand of the mission makers.

I may be wrong, i may be right, whatever it is, it happened and as the years rolled by, puzzle pieces come in place. Some will be in denial of the truth as the early 60s administrators were, some will fight tooth and nail for what they believed, as the defenseless kent state university students who were shot dead by the authorities, some will be filled with remorse over what they had done and rather let hate than forgiveness fill the emptiness, some will be too scarred by the experience, some will rather be silent and let things drop, and some will never allow the episode to be forgotten least we make the same mistake again.

If u truly seek the truth, u will know where to find it, for to ask me for the truth, u already are prepared NOT to believe my words, and all that i offer up will only serve as fodder for u to mangle and maul. Better u seek it for yourself for self enlightenment is better than the words of others, no matter how sweet or alluring they may be.

I hereby apologise humbly if i had offended anyone with these posts, for i seek nothing and no one owes me anything, only that the unvarnish truth( not the half truths that those who in power need to tell to keep them in power) be made known.

edit:- this was in reply to billyboob's earlier post, which he..er...edited...

Because I asked for sources (i.e. US pilots) and pointed to a myth (the draft myth) you used... Now I got to kill you...

Quote[/b] ]I hereby apologise humbly if i had offended anyone with these posts, for i seek nothing and no one owes me anything, only that the unvarnish truth( not the half truths that those who in power need to tell to keep them in power) be made known.

You know the truth but still talk about the draft myth has fact.. Furthermore, people who did serve in ARVN (not all) and etc. fought NVA/VC because they were anti-communist and wanted democracy for Vietnam. You are disrespecting them..

Quote[/b] ]did you guys think the resistance campaign was too hard? how u had to conserve your guns and ammo, and soldiers because they all carry over into the next mission.

I think that would be great for a VC campaign,

your thoughts?

If you are trying to make a realistic campaign then sure...

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

but remember everyone, just because its written on the internet doesnt mean its right.

Yea because it's not as though my entire second year history study is on the clusterfuck that was the Us foreign policy and containing communism in Asia, just because one posts on an internet forum with a little knowledge does not mean he has copied and pasted from a website.

ARVN in general gave up because many felt the US could do it better and where disillusioned with diems corrupt regime.

Vietnam was not about Good Vs Evil, it was a civil war which the US failed to understand and should never have got involved in.