THE UNSUNG MOD - communist campaign?

[philcommando 0]

By all means, use derogatory terms - gooks,chinks,slanty eyes, yellow niggers, etc. Show smiley US faces as they gun down or torture the NVA (George Washington would have been proud to have soldies such as the NVA) with joy and orgasmic pleasure.This is only a reflection of the truth of the war, fought by boys who thought they were stopping the red tide of communism on the shores of others. They know not better nor the full truth of the tragic tale of Vietnam history.

Ignorance is bliss. Its better for the Nam vets to hate and continue hating people from far away lands than his own country. For those who bravely serve the nation and returned to less than welcomming home reception, perhaps they know now why it was so - it was never meant a snub to these brave soldiers, but a sign of defiance and protest to the administrators who kept the truth and callously send soldiers to support a police state. For those who died, they died with honour knowing that they answered to the call of the nation, whose ,unfortunately, administrators were not wise enough to command such authority over public spirited and brave americans.

My postings were not meant to spoil gamming fun, but a hope that this engine, which has the greatest potential of all games, to reach out to a mass audience, letting the newer generation know the truth as they play the game. Shoot and kill by all means, but someway at the end of the campaign, perhaps a slice of the tragic tale of Vietnam be told?....In the words of king Leonadas of sparta.." Go tell Greece how spartans( US soldiers and Vietnamese soldiers) died.."

PS:- Total War: Rome was used as the engine for a BBC documentary and is also used as a way to teach kids in school ancient history. Would OFP be able to reach such heights?

[drow 0]

http://www.boycottusa.org/gallery/nam_2.htm  

(more pages)

Read some of those things those kids are messed up with, theres so many different problems you couldnt imagine what the cause could be... but its agent orange, and it does countless horible things to people, especially unborn babies.

for anyone who thinks nam was just some fairytale long long ago, or some place in video games we kill skinny asian guys...

Not only is it history, but its a present day nightmare for alot of people. Show some respect.

[miles teg 1]

The problem with that strategy Philcommando is that you always get a few young kids who just want to shoot stuff up and when they hear "gook" they'll be thinking "Hell Yeah! KILL THE GOOK! KILL THOSe GODDAMN YELLOW SONSOFBIATCHES!"   It would take a damn good mission maker to actually create a story that's interesting enough to educate gamers.   Furthermore it would be even more difficult to make mission showing the long term consequences of such a brutal war on the veterans.  I've known many Vietnam Veterans and most were scarred terribly mentally by what they experienced there.  Many of them even today have nightmares and flashbacks and often think about the people they killed.  Simulating that with cutscene movies would take alot of mission making skills and I get the feeling that this mod is more about flag waving then attempting to educate.  

To Drow:  DUDE... if you want to show some respect try NOT CALLING THEM GOOKS!   As far as that site goes...yeah horrible pictures...but I don't see how boycotting those corporations listed (that as far as I know have nothing to do with Agent Orange and little to do with the defense industry) is going to help anyone.   I'm a liberal but that site is like waaay extreme liberal and has some flat out lies in it (like that Iranian victims of the USS Vincennes airline shootdown were never compensated and that only non-Iranian victims were compensated).  Extreme leftists piss me off.

Why you threw that into this thread leaves me confused cuz your past posts seemed like "kill the commies/better dead then red" type stuff.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[drow 0]

i guarantee youll hear "gook" said if you play our campaign,

so dont come if you cant take it...

no sissies allowed  

(edit - i just read back thru the thread now, please dont ban me for saying that Placebo it has context to what im saying)

That's fu**ed up.  I'll steer clear of your mod in that case and stick with the SEB and independent Vietnam stuff.    I honestly don't think your mod team is capable of accurately portraying reality for the North Vietnamese/VietCong soldier with that kind of mentality.  

If I used that kind of rationale in my Middle East missions then I would call the Arab forces in my mod "sand niggers", "sand coons", "Towel Heads", "rag heads", "goat f**kers" and every other racist term that IN REALITY are used all the time by American forces in the Middle East.   But I won't do that cuz its just plain racist and its insulting to people of Middle Eastern descent just as the word "gook" is insulting to most people of Asian descent.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Stear clear then, we're not making a saturday morning cartoon, its a fuckin Vietnam war mod!

Its supposed to be realistic, no holds barred, unlike games that have to follow rules to get proper ratings to make money we dont have to...

I have the upmost respect for Vietnamese people, and the soldiers who fought and died in the war, but im not going to make up some fakeass dialog when i could stick with the real... why do movies and books and such have the words "fuck" and "gook" it them? because people said that stuff alot. I dont mean any disrespect from it, im not taking pleasure in the word, or calling anyone that, no, its simply a detail of the time and place. If this were a mod about any other war, we would research and add in the same amount of detail, no matter how controversial, if you dont want to, dont, people will surely hastle you for it, why not just make a PG13 mod with Pink NERF canons that fire stick on arrows...

...Now youre mod is focusing on a modern day desert war i understand (still fresh in everyones memories) , and i do think it would be inapporpriet to be calling the enemies sand niggers, but dude, do u think modern day US officers are referring to the enemy as sand niggers? no i doubt it, probably Jim-Bob and Dale from the State under the monkeys ass regular foot soldiers would be.

The officers in vietnam however did refer to the enemy as gooks unfortunately, and so you could imagine that nearly every other soldier would have followed in suit.

Immersion in the reality of the time and place is the goal, I really dont care about politically correctness and global unity among ofp players...  

and lastly, im sure you and most people who know of it will still download our mod no matter what is in it, controversy is good for publicity. I already know what to expect from your mod. I see it on TV every week, and if youre too afraid to show how soldiers really talk then i might as well "stear clear" of such a wimpy reinactment of a war.

[drow 0]

The problem with that strategy Philcommando is that you always get a few young kids who just want to shoot stuff up and when they hear "gook" they'll be thinking "Hell Yeah! KILL THE GOOK! KILL THOSe GODDAMN YELLOW SONSOFBIATCHES!"   It would take a damn good mission maker to actually create a story that's interesting enough to educate gamers.   Furthermore it would be even more difficult to make mission showing the long term consequences of such a brutal war on the veterans.  I've known many Vietnam Veterans and most were scarred terribly mentally by what they experienced there.  Many of them even today have nightmares and flashbacks and often think about the people they killed.  Simulating that with cutscene movies would take alot of mission making skills and I get the feeling that this mod is more about flag waving then attempting to educate.  

To Drow:  DUDE... if you want to show some respect try NOT CALLING THEM GOOKS!   As far as that site goes...yeah horrible pictures...but I don't see how boycotting those corporations listed (that as far as I know have nothing to do with Agent Orange and little to do with the defense industry) is going to help anyone.   I'm a liberal but that site is like waaay extreme liberal and has some flat out lies in it (like that Iranian victims of the USS Vincennes airline shootdown were never compensated and that only non-Iranian victims were compensated).  Extreme leftists piss me off.

Why you threw that into this thread leaves me confused cuz your past posts seemed like "kill the commies/better dead then red" type stuff.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

i posted that site before i realized what had been posted in this thread by u... it was just some stuff i thought "people" should know about vietnam, not liberal bullshit or whatever else is on that site, i just found that thru looking for nam pics on google. It wasnt a reply to anything you had said.

Anyways, flag waving? jeez... just shut up till u play our mod... im not even American, in fact i was told that the campaign i had written was totally anti-American so you have no idea what youre talking about.

This is a touchy war,,, and yes there are somethings we keep in mind for careful decisions, whether or not we should use the word gook in the campaign is like whether or not youll see a jungle or huts in the mod tho... its a no brainer.

I respect asian people and hope they will play our mod and not be offended. If they do not respect me for my decisions on what content will and wont be in the mod campaign then I will have to live with that.

[miles teg 1]

Apparently you don't know my mod because we're not doing any kind of historical campaign.  Its also an Israeli/Arab conflict mod.  The Middle East missions I was refering to were stuff I do on the side using BAS and other desert/middle east addons.  

Our mod is based on a fictional future war although we will be doing some historical addons for those who want to make historically based missions.

As far as realism goes, you can make a fairly realistic OFP mission without adding all the racist comments.  I do include civilians in my missions in order to teach how easy it is to accidentally kill civilians using heavy weapons.  We also will have suicide bomber attacks on both military and civilian targets.  Speaking of realism, I was one of the first OFP mission makers (if not the first) to incorporate actual artillery commands into a OFP forward observer mission (coupled with Arty simulation scripts) long before CoC started work on their artillery simulation.

The mission was called "Gods of War" and used actual commands used by USAF ROMADs to call in air strikes and artillery.  My mission "Operation Condor" also recieved alot of praise for realism as have many of my other missions.

I also have a military background in the US Army Reserve, in the Corp of Engineers.  That's one of the reasons my mod has the first working anti-mine roller ever made for OFP.  

But its cool if you want to steer clear of our mod.  

Please prove me wrong and write gut wrenching storylines for your missions that'll get me hooked.  If you can do that and also show a VC perspective that shows them as being human beings as well, then I might play the mod, but if its just silly kill'em all missions with random "KILL THEM GOOKS!" samples thrown around in triggers, and little story line then I'll pass.  

But hopefully you guys will produce something that'll make me want to eat my words and that will really blow us away. From the screenshots, the quality looks good. Hopefully the missions will also reflect the same quality.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[philcommando 0]

I believe there is good in humanity, and many started out with the idea of doing things right. Its not every day we have the opportunity to make things right, but shouldn't we use every day as opportunity to make things right?

No worries, drow, cool down...its only one personal view on your mod. If we dont allow disention, why bother putting up this thread at all?...lets keep our heads and listen for everyone has a right to speak their mind, but never the right to force u to do what u dont wish to do, miles and u are both nice guys, take it easy for both offers credible and heartfelt words.

Miles...no worries, we cant change the world alone but lets not let the world change us. Evolution takes time and in time, with more understanding, this world will be a better place for us, if not us, at least our kids or their kids..things is, never stop trying but also, never bang your head against the wall. ..the world needs need u level headed and alive. The youth of today will be leaders of tomorrow.

[drow 0]

sorry for being rude.

Much respect Miles.

[miles teg 1]

No problem.    Anyhoo...  I'll give your mod a try when it comes out.   I apologize also for jumping to conclusions before your mod is even finished.  But I do hope that you get a skilled team of mission makers working on it especially if you're going to do the VC perspective.  It is VERY challenging to put yourself into the mindset of an enemy and to understand his motivations and then too try and depict this in a OFP mission.  But I hope your team will do a good job.  

Chris G.  

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[offtime 0]

your at war you MUST treat enemy like some kind of animal, its easier to kill them this way.

if you ever talk with training sergant he will tell you that you need to hate your enemy.

most of ppl are good ppl, how you expect them to kill another ppl at war if they will feel that enemies ar as same good as they are ?

for american soldiers "gook" means enemy, disrespectfull, hated enemy.

for vietnamiese "gj joe" means same shit.

it always was this way and it always will be.

and things like in this topic are sayng only ppl that never hated enemy becouse of fear that theyr capable to kill us.

war is bad and ugly

dont expect to learn something good by playng games where you must kill other ppl.

go and play Pixie Daysies !

[Placebo 28]

For the sake of this discussion and threads of this campaign on the forums, let's end the discussion of what is or isn't proper and concentrate on discussing the campaign, should it be necessary to discuss issues related to political correctness when the campaign comes out then we'll cross that bridge etc. etc.

Drow I respect you were trying to use it in context.

Offtime you're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to go against the wishes of a moderator, on this occasion I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your intention was solely innocent humour.

Now the discussion in this forum must go back to the campaign itself and not the issue of the last few posts, a refusal to do that will lead to the posts being deleted and WL+ & PR handed out to the perpetrators.

[philcommando 0]

Hahaha, offtime...if u want a game to just shoot and shoot nothing but shooting, ofp can satisfy that craving and not only ofp, plenty more too, like counter strike, etc...

When ofp hit the stores the first time, it was vastly different, in that besides the fun factor, it gave u a reason to fight, pretty realistically...in its campaigns. From there we learn how to command ourselves first to survive then lead others to survive in order to win the campaign.

For any missions the mission maker wishes to make on his free will and time must be respected for his effort. He is like a story teller and he has a choice to make a compelling and dramatic mission, based on his perception of truth of realistic events or pure human social behaviour.

However, if there is no compelling storyline...tallyhooo!!!!!!!! lets just wham bang thank you sir and whoever wanna downloads it, its your respected own decision.

One more thing and i plead indulgence from placebo, ...son, in war when u pull the trigger on the command of the officer, no one can or should blame you. The responsibility of that command comes from people who are placed with authority linking up to the supreme commander. Thats why its important to select or vote your leaders wisely. May those more perceptive youth who may become the next general or top administrator playing today's virtual realistic games realise the importance and responsibility of being a leader of lives.

[offtime 0]

blah, blah, blah, we can talk about that and never find solution akceptable for both sides. so lets skip it.

25 ppl wants to play one of sides and 92 wants to play both sides.

that means looooots of work for our missionmakers......

@Placebo, thanks, for benefit of the doubt .

[miles teg 1]

your at war you MUST treat enemy like some kind of animal, its easier to kill them this way.

if you ever talk with training sergant he will tell you that you need to hate your enemy.

most of ppl are good ppl, how you expect them to kill another ppl at war if they will feel that enemies ar as same good as they are ?

for american soldiers "gook" means enemy, disrespectfull, hated enemy.

for vietnamiese "gj joe" means same shit.

it always was this way and it always will be.

and things like in this topic are sayng only ppl that never hated enemy becouse of fear that theyr capable to kill us.

war is bad and ugly

dont expect to learn something good by playng games where you must kill other ppl.

go and play Pixie Daysies !

Offtime, I NEVER had a drill Sgt. tell me to hate an enemy.

Today at least the US military trains young men (and women) to be professional soldiers and not psychotic killing machines.

However you think I don't realize that *some* soldiers hate the enemy?  Of coarse I do.  I can't even say for certain that I wouldn't hate my enemy if I was in Iraq right now with my former unit where they are being shot at every day including many of my close friends who's lives are on the line.  They tell me of the horrific things they have seen which I will not repeat to anyone else.  

I'm also fully aware of the psychological need for many soldiers to hate and de-humanize an enemy in order to cope with having to take the lives of that enemy and often enemy civilians whether intentionally or accidentally.  I have a degree in psychology and I'm well aware of this and the reasons behind it.  So please don't lecture me about the ugliness of war.    

But to teach this hatred in video games is irresponsible.  In addition not all soldiers hate their enemy.  Many soldiers serve with honor, compassion, and decency.  Those are the virtues I was taught in the United States Army and are some of the reasons why I was proud to put on that uniform.  

I will try this mod out, but if the mod is spewing grossly exaggerated hatred and racism towards Vietnamese I will not support it.

Now please put the thread back on topic and lets discuss VC/NVA mission ideas that you guys might have if your're truly interested in making missions from their perspective.  If not then the moderators will probably kill the thread.   I talked about some mission ideas earlier but nobody responded to them.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[offtime 0]

Offtime, I NEVER had a drill Sgt. tell me to hate an enemy.

Today at least the US military trains young men (and women) to be professional soldiers and not psychotic killing machines.

However you think I don't realize that *some* soldiers hate the enemy?  Of coarse I do.  I can't even say for certain that I wouldn't hate my enemy if I was in Iraq right now with my former unit where they are being shot at every day including many of my close friends who's lives are on the line.  They tell me of the horrific things they have seen which I will not repeat to anyone else.  

I'm also fully aware of the psychological need for many soldiers to hate and de-humanize an enemy in order to cope with having to take the lives of that enemy and often enemy civilians whether intentionally or accidentally.  I have a degree in psychology and I'm well aware of this and the reasons behind it.  So please don't lecture me about the ugliness of war.    

But to teach this hatred in video games is irresponsible.  In addition not all soldiers hate their enemy.  Many soldiers serve with honor, compassion, and decency.  Those are the virtues I was taught in the United States Army and are some of the reasons why I was proud to put on that uniform.  

I will try this mod out, but if the mod is spewing grossly exaggerated hatred and racism towards Vietnamese I will not support it.

Now please put the thread back on topic and lets discuss VC/NVA mission ideas that you guys might have if your're truly interested in making missions from their perspective.  If not then the moderators will probably kill the thread.   I talked about some mission ideas earlier but nobody responded to them.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

blah, blah, blah.....

i lecture you ?

and how you call this bullshit you just wrote ?

dont answer, keep your briliant thoughts for yourself

[drow 0]

For the Vietcong campaign i want it to be similar to the BIS resistance campaign in that we need to scrounge for weapons and ammo, and it carries over from mission to mission, also how many men in your squad etc.

The VC didnt have massive ammo dumps to just stroll over to and pick up some ammo, they had to resourceful and crafty.

Anyone have any ideas for the Vietcong campaign? Feel free to post them, im still learning about them right now and havent written too much of the campaign yet.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

The north and the vietcong were fighing to unite their country not invading and killing millions of people for no reason

the viet commies were nothing like the nazis

They fought off the mongols even i think, but they fought off the chinese, the japanese, the french, and eventually, arguably, the Americans.

They deserve much respect, they didnt get to go home until they won the war, which they did.

(edit - sadly the countries involved did not communicate, and did not see the same conflict at hand,

the north and the vietcong saw it as a civil war, and a war against colonialism, where as the US saw it as a coldwar against communism. See that movie/documentary about Robert MacNamara - "The Fog of War" - he talks about meeting a vietnamese leader later in life and realizing they were soo wrong about what they thought of eachother. Vietnamese thougth of te US same and the french, colonialists, and US thought that Vietnam was going to join the Communist empire with russian and china, but Vietnam hated china, theyd been fighting them off longer than anyone else. Sure they got supplies from them, but from what I know China even tried to invade Vietnam again at the end of the "war" and got faught off by the Vietnamese.

anyways, it was a major miscommunication problem.

Well back to work (my real job), sorry if i typed strangly, i tried to get this schpeel out really fast!)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/prc-vietnam.htm

theres the thing about China invading Vietnam after the war with America.

"In February 1979 China attacked along virtually the entire Sino-Vietnamese border in a brief, limited campaign that involved ground forces only. The Chinese attack came at dawn on the morning of 17 February 1979, and employed infantry, armor, and artillery. Air power was not employed then or at any time during the war. Within a day, the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) had advanced some eight kilometers into Vietnam along a broad front. It then slowed and nearly stalled because of heavy Vietnamese resistance and difficulties within the Chinese supply system. On February 21, the advance resumed against Cao Bang in the far north and against the all-important regional hub of Lang Son. Chinese troops entered Cao Bang on February 27, but the city was not secured completely until March 2. Lang Son fell two days later. On March 5, the Chinese, saying Vietnam had been sufficiently chastised, announced that the campaign was over. Beijing declared its "lesson" finished and the PLA withdrawal was completed on March 16. "

hillarious...

"On March 5, the Chinese, saying Vietnam had been sufficiently chastised, announced that the campaign was over. Beijing declared its "lesson" finished and the PLA withdrawal was completed on March 16."

as if they didnt just realize that they shouldnt even bother getting in another war with the country thats been at war for 1000 years... no ones more patient and able to sacrifice than the Vietnamese. Their war never ends (like my rant ).

Actually the Vietminh saw it as a civil conflict whereas the Vitcong A.K.A the NLF where more anti Diem at start and then guilt by association where anti US later, while the Vietminh saw them as an ally and supplied them.

Sorry for the late reply.

[Winters 1]

Both, more campaigns = more fun

[Winters 1]

Anyone have any ideas for the Vietcong campaign? Feel free to post them, im still learning about them right now and havent written too much of the campaign yet.

I suggest reading up on the TET offensive, that would make an excellent campaign as it would give you fighting over firebases (Khe sahn) and cities (Hue)

Here is a useful link, i have others but after consulting the forum rules i dont want to post them and get banned.

Edit:

Dammit, no matter what site i try there is an image thats not suitable for this forum, Even Wikipedia showed some pretty gruesome stuff.

Ahh Hell, if you want some links just do a google search for "Tet Offensive" you will find plenty.

[billybob2002 0]

@Drow: which campaign is going to be "anti-american". Also, in what context "anti-american" used.. Are you going to make Billybob2002 cry...

[billybob2002 0]

Anyone have any ideas for the Vietcong campaign? Feel free to post them, im still learning about them right now and havent written too much of the campaign yet.

I suggest reading up on the TET offensive, that would make an excellent campaign as it would give you fighting over firebases (Khe sahn) and cities (Hue)

Here are some useful links, I want to caution all that some of these links contain explicit images of the horrors of war

Links removed at Winter's request

I hope you find them useful

A perfect ending for Tet mission(s) is to be the only surviving member of your squad to represent the fact that VC, in RL, were almost wiped out has a fighting unit.

[kerosene 0]

@ Mr. Reality.

My objection was to people using the term on the forum more than in the context of a game or film.  And it is a racist term, perhaps not where you live, but i've heard it used as a derogatory term for asian people.

Plenty of racist terms are derived from other words or the meaning is changed or becomes broader.

Anyway, moving on, I apologize for swearing at you.

Seriously though, ROK marines, Blue Dragons, even the VC were afraid of them, they'd make a cool addon.

[drow 0]

@Drow: which campaign is going to be "anti-american". Also, in what context "anti-american" used.. Are you going to make Billybob2002 cry...

the american campaign, its not meant to be anti-american, thats just what someone said

because it shows misguided patriotism, cowardess, an american kills another american, its some pretty touchy stuff.

Youll have to see when it comes out and see what you think of it, I think its fine, shows how people change in war, and how people change when their life is on the line, some for the better, some for the worse.

I try not to be partial to any one side, but the side you choose to play as for the campaign sets the perspective in which you get to play. You get what they got, not what we now know about it all these years later. You will be a naive soldier.

"A perfect ending for Tet mission(s) is to be the only surviving member of your squad to represent the fact that VC, in RL, were almost wiped out has a fighting unit. "

the north sent the Vietcong to their deaths in the TET, they were sent to their deaths so the north could take over the war and when they got rid of the US the Vietcong wouldnt be able to fight them for the good of the vietnamese people or whatver, the Vc an NVA had different agendas. the VC were like freedom fighters and more focused on the good of the villagers and such, the north were straight up communists from what i know and just wanted to control the whole country how they saw fit... i am still learning about this un-spoken of conflict between the VC and the north so i may have somethings wrong.

(my Vietnamese friend told me, ill need to get more details, but from what i understand the VC were their own force, political and military, they were people from south vietnam not the north, and they wanted to be self governed i believe, so it seems the north rid themselves of the VC during TET, so they wouldnt have another civil war for the south later, after the "colonialists" are removed.)

not 100% accurate or backed up with any proof

but still, some food for thought, and research.

(come to think of it, this is liek a Vietnam comspiracy theory, but im sure it has its truth, i recently watched a little known bad nam movie that shows a bit of the vietcong view, and they say that if they fail during TET the north will take over the war and they will be finished, thats when i first realized they were fighting for something seperate, and had a chance of losing it to the north... the VC werent simply NVA without uniforms)

...the name is something liek the Peoples Liberation Army, (or national peoples liberation front or something, communist sounding hehe), thats another name for the vietcong, sorry im at work right now and dont have access to information resources.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

National Liberation Front was the original Name of the VC, but the US labelled all opposition as VC (Vietnamese Communist which is what vietcong mean i think) the NLF was made of 12 different interest groups including Bhuddists, the imilations (sp?) that happened in 63? they were part of the NLF, the NLF or VC where mainly against Diem while the Vietminh (NVA) used the VC to fight the US and supplied them to do it.

[drow 0]

VC comes from vietcong which means something in Vietnamese, comes from VietMihn i think...

Victor Charley is what US forces would say, vietnamese communist is definitly wrong.

edit - o yea, and the viet minh are not the NVA, they were the guerilla forces who fought the french, alot more liek the Vietcong than the NVA

upon second thought, i suppose after the french were kicked out the viet minh may have become the NVA im not certain.