European Politics Thread.

[EiZei 0]

Too bad Soroses tactics did not work on a certain other regime..

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Well it strikes me that the EU should have such measures and techniques for intervention, or else prohibit and condemn them. Standing by, apparently letting (or allowing) the US do the work of waging the propaganda war against anti democratic forces in the far flung corners of europe smacks of lazy complacence. The EU is (or should be) responsible for cleaning up europe and ensuring the survival of democracy in potential future member states not the US.

[edit- i dont wish to become a total pimp for the guardian online but ive just read this article that pretty much supports what ive just written Freedom's front line

Quote[/b] ]Can Europe's velvet revolution claim another prize? When Ukrainian demonstrators on the frozen streets of Kiev place flowers in the perforated metal shields of their country's riot police, they are sending us two desperate yet dignified messages: "We want to join Europe" and "We want to do this in a European way". Peacefully, that is, supplanting the old Jacobin-Bolshevik model of violent regime change with Europe's new model of velvet revolution - as in Prague and Berlin in 1989, as in Serbia's toppling of Milosevic, as in Georgia, where exactly one year ago the people's president marched into parliament bearing a long-stemmed rose. If we, comfortably ensconced in the institutionalised Europe to which these peaceful demonstrators look with hope and yearning, do not immediately support them with every appropriate means at our disposal, we will betray the very ideals we claim to represent.

edit]

[xawery 0]

Well it strikes me that the EU should have such measures and techniques for intervention, or else prohibit and condemn them. Standing by, apparently letting (or allowing) the US do the work of waging the propaganda war against anti democratic forces in the far flung corners of europe smacks of lazy complacence. The EU is (or should be) responsible for cleaning up europe and ensuring the survival of democracy in potential future member states not the US.

You conveniently overlook the fact that it is the EU who is the diplomatic mediator in this conflict, so you can hardly call the Union lazy. They've been on top of this from the beginning. What the US does actually smacks of breach of sovereignity, but hey, that hasn't exactly stopped the US in the past... I agree with you that the EU should condemn such techniques, but doing this now would draw attention away from the real matter at hand, i.e. the Ukrainian elections.

Besides, from the point of view of game theory this is the optimal solution for the EU - the US does the dirty job which, if succesful, will result in a pro-EU government. Opportunism at its best.

(Incidentally, I feel that the pejorative meaning of opportunism is unjustified. It simply means utilising an opportunity when it occurs;))

[der bastler 0]

Quote[/b] ]Okay, first thing first, US should be quiet, their voting has been fradulent before, recently,

No official proof...

Why should the re-elected officials proof that the election was not correct?

But the American election system suffered damage in 2000:

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=27&row=2

And now there are new doubts:

http://truthout.org/unexplainedexitpoll.pdf

Therefore the US should be quiet until they manage to use pen and paper for elections (SCNR). And regarding this poster there should be utter silence:

[xawery 0]

Holy crap. I remember similar billboards from my history books... they were in a different language though, cough cough...

[der bastler 0]

Holy crap. I remember similar billboards from my history books... they were in a different language though, cough cough...

Me thinks I could read the language you have in mind...

*shudders*

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Now now, lets move with the times. The poster isnt so much WW2 as post partition Korea. Great Leader, Dear Leader

Incidentally ifound this quote from Kim Jong-il in his bbc profile

"I know I'm an object of criticism in the world, but if I am being talked about, I must be doing the right things" -Kim Jong-il

Somehow seems familiar.

BTW i disagree that letting the US exercise its regime change routines in the EUs backyard is a good idea in the long run. If our interests were identical (only differing in methods) it may well be for the best but its obvious that in certain areas our ideas diverge and US appear to be developing a clear advantage over the EU in election tipping techniques (one might imagine that next time if successful they will call on Ukrainians to assist them).

[denoir 0]

Well it strikes me that the EU should have such measures and techniques for intervention, or else prohibit and condemn them. Standing by, apparently letting (or allowing) the US do the work of waging the propaganda war against anti democratic forces in the far flung corners of europe smacks of lazy complacence. The EU is (or should be) responsible for cleaning up europe and ensuring the survival of democracy in potential future member states not the US.

I'd like to see the exact opposite happening. I think that the EU pushed to far by rejecting the election results. It's none of our business how they manage their internal affairs.

What I would have liked to have seen would have been some  friendly advice to Russia that we do not look kindly on their interference in the private politcs of Ukraine.

In my opinion the only time when we should interfere politically is when human rights violations are taking place. Otherwise it's none of our business how other countries run their workshop.

I don't want us to go back to the imperial or colonial era. Been there. Done that. Did not work out very well. I don't want Europe to do the same mistakes that America is doing today.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Mystery surrounds Yushchenko ailment

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- What ails Viktor Yushchenko?

As Ukraine's popular pro-Western opposition leader claimed victory Tuesday in hotly contested presidential elections, the mystery surrounding an appearance-altering illness that twice prompted him to check into a Vienna hospital persisted.

Yushchenko accused the Ukrainian authorities of poisoning him. His detractors suggested he'd eaten some bad sushi.

Adding to the intrigue, the Austrian doctors who treated him have asked foreign experts to help determine if his symptoms may have been caused by toxins found in biological weapons.

Medical experts said they may never know for sure what befell Yushchenko.

But the illness, whatever it was, has dramatically changed his appearance since he first sought treatment at Vienna's private Rudolfinerhaus clinic on September 10.

Known for his ruggedly handsome, almost movie star looks, Yushchenko's complexion is now pockmarked. His face is haggard, swollen and partially paralyzed. One eye often tears up.

Doctors at Rudolfinerhaus declined to comment Tuesday. By the time Yushchenko checked out of the clinic last month after returning for follow-up treatment, physicians said they could neither prove nor rule out that he had been poisoned.

Dr. Nikolai Korpan, who oversaw Yushchenko's treatment in Vienna, said the cause of his illness remained "totally open.''

Doctors were unable to confirm suspicions of poisoning because Yushchenko first checked into the clinic four days after the symptoms appeared -- too late for tests to show if poisoning had occurred, Korpan said.

At Rudolfinerhaus, Yushchenko underwent a week of intensive treatment for several illnesses, including acute pancreatitis, a viral skin disease and nerve paralysis on the left side of his face, Korpan said.

Clinic director Michael Zimpfer said doctors were unable to explain some of Yushchenko's symptoms, particularly his strong backaches.

He said they could not rule out stress or a viral infection.

Yushchenko's doctors in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, said they had determined that "chemicals not of a food origin'' had triggered the illness.

Zimpfer and the clinic's chief physician, Dr. Lothar Wicke -- who requested police protection after receiving an anonymous threat while treating Yushchenko -- later asked for outside help from "a specialist in military operations and biological weapons,'' the Austria Press Agency reported.

Yushchenko's medical files since have been sealed and turned over to Austrian prosecutors, local media reported.

Authorities have not said whether they planned to investigate further or merely turn over their findings to Ukraine.

Earlier this month, Volodymyr Syvkovych, the head of a 15-member Ukrainian parliamentary commission that investigated the mysterious illness, said a forensic medical examination found no traces of "any biological weapons'' in Yushchenko's blood, nails, hair or urine.

Something does not look right...

[denoir 0]

Holy crap, he looks like he has aged 20 years in a few months:

Quote[/b] ]Viktor Yushchenko (left) as he appeared in July 2004 and (right) as he appeared in November after the alleged poisoning

[billybob2002 0]

That must of been horrible fish.

[DarkLight 0]

Holy crap, he looks like he has aged 20 years in a few months:

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif' alt='smile_o.gif'>

[bn880 5]

Remember that face, it is a face that stands for freedom Apparently according to politicians even in Canada, the current Ukranian leadership is a human rights abusing regimental dictatorship. Since apparently that face above is fighting for freedom and human rights. Well, what I am curious to know is who the heck is the occupation in Ukraine, and how many executions there are per month of polictical activists etc.

You know, we went from Solidarnosc to Sralamalnosc.

This is totally an internal matter to Ukraine, and Canada, US, EU, and on the other side Russia should shut the hell up. People are so god damn pushy these days, and closed minded just like in the middle ages.

[Grizzlie 0]

I always thought that right to free speach and right to vote r human rights too...

U do not need to kill oposition.

And when somebody is cheating with results of votes, he is violating rights of each and every citisen.

Or i am wrong?

[bn880 5]

Absolutely not, if anything the rights of 1 million are being violated(we are not talking about bodily injury, starvation etc ;) ), since it apparently took a million votes to swing the results the other way. Hell, almost a majority of voters are happy with the outcome if there was cheating, and a small majority of voters is happy if there was no cheating...

You know exit polls are like other polls, worth shit all, the only poll that is sometimes reliable is the one that is organized by the electorial comittee. If there were flaws or cheating, and no investigation or recount will be made, then yes, that is a problem.

Edit: It is that kind of system, when the outcome is very close, you make a tiny mistake or some minute cheating sways the entire outcome. And from what i hear it changes the government from evil to good and vice-versa. That is the beauty of a democratic election system, you get pissed off and agitated when things are close. At least with dictatorships you don't have that problem.

Edit2: I would not be surprised with this kind of whining and crummy rhetoric if clearly 90% of Ukranians supported Mr. Freedom Face, but they do not do they? It is not that decisive. Just like it was mostly funny how Bush won his election the first time, cheating or not it was already too close to really infringe on civil rights...

[bn880 5]

You know what happens when you force these revolts in a split political support environment? I'll tell you what;

worst case, civil war

bad case, a split of the nation, like West/East

good case, one side wins and other side doesn't revolt seriously

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Me-

Quote[/b] ]The EU is (or should be) responsible for cleaning up europe and ensuring the survival of democracy in potential future member states not the US.

denoir-

Quote[/b] ]I'd like to see the exact opposite happening.

Well i think we'll have to disagree on that.

Quote[/b] ]I think that the EU pushed to far by rejecting the election results. It's none of our business how they manage their internal affairs.

What I would have liked to have seen would have been some  friendly advice to Russia that we do not look kindly on their interference in the private politcs of Ukraine.

In my opinion the only time when we should interfere politically is when human rights violations are taking place. Otherwise it's none of our business how other countries run their workshop.

I don't want us to go back to the imperial or colonial era. Been there. Done that. Did not work out very well. I don't want Europe to do the same mistakes that America is doing today.

The EU has every right to reject the election results if they think there is sufficient evidence of cheating. Rejecting election results itself is certainly not a return to colonialism. the Ukrainians dont have to take notice of the EUs rejection but if they want any chance of future EU accession talks (as some do) then they should. Its probably more the business of the EU than the US elections, either this years or the previous dodgy  one.

If we (in the EU) believe that governments deliberately falsifying results in an election and cheating is wrong then we should say so and speak out. But maybe you think governments cheating their citizens of the right to vote (which is essentially what electoral fraud amounts to in nullifying legitimate votes) is ok? From where im sitting that does appear a human rights abuse in an allegedly democratic country.

E.g. From the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which as you have previously stated, no state originally had the guts not to sign.

Quote[/b] ]Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

...

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Looks like a violation to me. If it were the Israeli government depriving a certain ethnic/religious or political group of their votes i cant help thinking you would immediatly jump on the bandwagon of condemnation. But Ukraine is somehow different it would appear.

'Friendly words' to Russia in this case would achieve zilch except distance them. They see it as their right to interfere in Ukraine with its partially Russian speaking population and Moscow inclined post soviet legacy, plus Putin is becoming increasingly autocratic himself.

I think in such cases as this 'imperialism' would have to be defined. I will say though im not totally against the idea of non violent democratic imperialism but even if i was, letting democracy and the rule of law crumble or erode on the outskirts of the EU without protest or opposition is a bad way to proceed and would set a bad precedent.

As for Yushchenko's face, even if he was poisoned by the government, im sure its nothing a friendly word from the EU wouldnt fix.

bn880-

Quote[/b] ]This is totally an internal matter to Ukraine, and Canada, US, EU, and on the other side Russia should shut the hell up.  People are so god damn pushy these days, and closed minded just like in the middle ages.

Yes youre right, just like the middle ages. How dare people protest at election fixing or human rights abuses.No more protests, there are authoritarian regimes to reinforce people!

Noone even mentioned the allegations surrounding the first Bush administration as i recall hint, hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. (was i too subtle?)

bn880-

Quote[/b] ]It is that kind of system, when the outcome is very close, you make a tiny mistake or some minute cheating sways the entire outcome.  And from what i hear it changes the government from evil to good and vice-versa.  

Yes precisely right. 'Minute cheating' to tip a close election does indeed turn a government from from good to bad, or 'evil', as far as im concerned. Intimidation of voters, government giving their supporters multiple voting slips and turning the dead into voters. Are these 'evil' (morally wrong) acts? Should they be opposed (at least verbally) even in other countries? Absolutely yes.

[Pathy 0]

He hasnt said "how dare they protest", what hes said is, what right do we, as outsiders, have to interfere....as long as it remains peaceful. Obviously if they started rolling in tanks, we are going to have the <s>right</s> responsibility to intervene, but while its peaceful?

While its peaceful, i agree, its an internal affair. The problem is, the Russians dont see it as that, and if the Russians intervene then by default we also have to intervene.....

[Grizzlie 0]

I think problem is in one thing. It is "all or nothing" game. If u decide to close ees in one case, u wouldn't have moral right to yell in the other...

And in definition of "peacefull". We know that in Ukraine independent media was closing with economical cheated cases, ect.

[bn880 5]

He hasnt said "how dare they protest", what hes said is, what right do we, as outsiders, have to interfere....as long as it remains peaceful. Obviously if they started rolling in tanks, we are going to have the <s>right</s> responsibility to intervene, but while its peaceful?

While its peaceful, i agree, its an internal affair. The problem is, the Russians dont see it as that, and if the Russians intervene then by default we also have to intervene.....

Yeah totally, I beleive the kind of pressure and rhetoric was un-necessary, from external forces... hell, if the government rigged the poles, something should be done to rectify that (hopefully internally and peacefully).

[brgnorway 0]

I don't know how far other nations should go or interviene in other nations electoral results. Let's just say I was pleased when EU gave Austria the cold shoulder during the Waldheim period!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I don't know how far other nations should go or interviene in other nations electoral results. Let's just say I was pleased when EU gave Austria the cold shoulder during the Waldheim period!

Yet they didn't do the same to Italy when Berlusconi came to power

[brgnorway 0]

I don't know how far other nations should go or interviene in other nations electoral results. Let's just say I was pleased when EU gave Austria the cold shoulder during the Waldheim period!

Yet they didn't do the same to Italy when Berlusconi came to power

That's a valid point allthough it has to be said that his presidency has been much debated in Europe - also by politicians.

He's a crook no doubt, but he was never depicted in an SS officer uniform, so there's a difference after all.

[denoir 0]

For all his flaws, I don't think Berlusconi can be compared to the Austrian case. Berlusconi is IMO an idiot, but still falls into the spectrum of normal political ideology.

[denoir 0]

E.g. From the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which as you have previously stated, no state originally had the guts not to sign.

Quote[/b] ]Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

...

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Looks like a violation to me. If it were the Israeli government depriving a certain ethnic/religious or political group of their votes i cant help thinking you would immediatly jump on the bandwagon of condemnation. But Ukraine is somehow different it would appear.

You make a valid argument, but the declaration of human rights is pretty vague on the definition of an acceptable form of government. Ukraine did have 'genuine elections', people really did go and vote.

How the votes were counted, if there was fraud, how the results are interpreted etc are a much vaguer issue, not really covered by the human rights declaration.