European Politics Thread.

[dontknowhow 33]

And what is the direction in your opinion? Because in a country like Poland where media is owned by liberals, it's a good direction when right-wing party start organize competition to the liberal media golem.

I decided to follow up on that suggestion of mine to read more international press.

I have been looking a bit of news about Orban, and maybe I'm starting to understand better what you mean by liberal. I'm afraid it's not related to right or left. I have a couple of interesting articles from not exactly communist sources.

 

I am subscribed to the Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal is a major newspaper, and a heavy supporter of the Republican party. For them Reagan is the model, and Karl Rove is a regular contributor. I found this article from 2014:

 

One consequence of America's retreat from global leadership has been damage to the idea of political and economic liberty world-wide. Political scientists call this "democratic backsliding"—the erosion of liberal institutions in states that had recently transitioned to democracy, though a better term might be authoritarian recidivism.

Consider the striking comments by Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban. "I don't think that our European Union membership precludes us from building an illiberal new state based on national foundations," Mr. Orban said in a speech earlier this week. He went on to cite Russia, Turkey and China as successful models to emulate, "none of which is liberal and some of which aren't even democracies."

Mr. Orban entered politics as an anti-Communist in the 1980s and once identified as a liberal in the 19th-century sense of the word. Yet since returning to power in 2010—he first served as premier from 1998 to 2002—he has chipped away at the country's constitutional checks and balances. He has packed courts and other independent institutions with loyalists from his ruling Fidesz party, politicized the central bank, nationalized private pensions, and barred the media from delivering "unbalanced news coverage."

The same period has witnessed the rise in Hungary of Jobbik, an explicitly neo-Nazi party. Jobbik's leaders have called on the government to count the Jews in parliament, proposed to set up "criminal zones" outside cities to segregate and surveil Roma residents, and erected a statue in Budapest honoring Miklos Horthy (1868-1957), the military leader who allied Hungary with Nazi Germany. Fidesz has often abetted and amplified, rather than confronted, Jobbik's ugly politics.

Many of these developments are attributable to Hungary's painful post-Communist transition. As elsewhere in Europe, slow growth, joblessness and economic mismanagement by parties of the center-left and center-right have been a boon to extremists and would-be authoritarians. "Liberal democracy can't remain globally competitive," Mr. Orban said.

Hungary's slow-motion transformation into a soft-authoritarian state may appear to Washington and Brussels as a provincial concern on Europe's periphery. Yet Mr. Orban looks with admiration to Vladimir Putin—and harbors Putin-like aspirations. Hungary has in recent years granted citizenship to ethnic Hungarians in neighboring states, and the goal of resurrecting a Greater Hungary stretching beyond the country's post-World War I borders is no fantasy for many nationalist elites.

More broadly, Mr. Orban's illiberal candor is a warning that free markets and free societies need more forceful defending. The West's victory in the Cold War led to a complacency that the liberal idea was triumphant—that it was "the end of history," in the fashionable phrase of the day. But authoritarians are always lurking to seize on democratic weakness.

Western Europe needs to set a better example of what freedom can achieve by reviving economic growth, and the American President who ostensibly still leads the free world ought to break his pattern and speak up on behalf of the liberal idea as if he believes it. If President Obama won't do it, then those who want to be his successor should.

 

For the record, the article is here:

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hungarys-illiberal-turn-1406829873

 

 

This is what the American Enterprise Institute, defined by Wikipedia as "the most prominent think tank associated with American neoconservatism", says about the situation in Poland:

 

https://www.aei.org/publication/illiberal-democracy-the-orban-ization-of-poland-explained/

 

The article talks about the media law, the issue with the constitutional court, and a couple of other issues. Interesting is this part:

 

We might or we might not like the idea of public broadcasting, but to the extent to which it does exist, there is a case for insulating it from political pressures, instead of turning it into an arm of government. The new media law will do the opposite, making Polish public broadcasting look less like NPR or BBC and more like government media in countries to the east of Poland

 

Also, about the constitutional court:

 

As a result, the amendment restrains the ability of the Court to effectively challenge the decisions taken by the government. That might appear to be a good thing for PiS supporters; for those who care about limited government, not so much.

[Tonci87 163]

 

 

 

As a result, the amendment restrains the ability of the Court to effectively challenge the decisions taken by the government. That might appear to be a good thing for PiS supporters; for those who care about limited government, not so much.

And that is the problem and I´m astonished that our polish forum members fail to see that. The only ones profiting from these dubious changes are the ones ruling the country. What happens if they should abuse their power, or loose the next elections? You think the next government will revert these decisions? Fuck no, they will exploit it just as much, if not more. The citizen doesn´t profit in any way from this.

[Rydygier 1309]

Although actions around constitutional court in their... intensity was surprising and certainly whole pretty complicated mess around it hurts authority of the law (by the way showing a weak spot of the system and a need for changes), problem was, the court itself was already abused by previous gov. According to PiS, due to majority of judges nominated by previous gov against the rules, there was serious risk of blocking gov's laws by this "third and the highest house of parliament". An excuse in opinion of some, a good reason for the others (can't recall it, but was said, last time, when PiS was part of ruling coalition exactly that happened - some PiS' reformes was blocked just like that by cc) - choose for yourself, what you prefer to believe. So, first thing, they tried was nominating "own" cc judges to get effective majority in cc, the second, apparently, is to change the way, cc adjudicates to remove this supposed "hostile majority" obstacle and "unchoke" the cc this way. 

 

Anyway, as you can see, constitional court wasn't/isn't a warranty of anything (nothing is). It's just a group of persons, nominated by other persons, with the arbitrary "last word", around control of which parties fight and that's all about this glorified "guardian of democracy", with all respect to those memebers of cc, who truly are honest and competent.

 

So while even lawyers and constitutionalists was/are confused and divided, because the law can be interpreted here to support mutually exclusive stances and there was many controversial movements on all sides (including announced "rebellion" of cc chairman, who said, he will ignore newest regulations of cc work and will use past rules), the more common folks simply can't have any idea, what exactly to think about all this. Some decided to trust media winding up whole this "end of democracy" hysteria, while other decided to trust the gov and just let it work.

 

IMO the best outcome possible here would be as an effect of all this some constitutional changes making this court more thrustworthy, serving better according to its theoretical purpose and more immune to political influences. There are some plans, but gathering a majority required to change the constitution itself require a cooperation and good will from at least part of opposition deputies, which isn't likely in big enough number, as too much of them use chaos to scaring people against the gov. 

[bardosy 158]

You can have 50-50, but if that means the Bild on one side and the Sun on the other side I think I'd rather have 99-1

I didn1t understand your questions about "trustwothy" media, because I never ever touch Bild-like newspapaer. So I'm always telling your kind of 'trustworthy' media. But in my opinion trustworthy mean very other value: the connection to the truth. And in that way there is no medium what publish the whole body of truth. Maybe it was true for BBC in the last century, but it's glory faded away unfortunately.

 

The direction is definitely of less respect for democracy.

In my point of view it's much closer to democracy. Why is so democratic, when liberal goivernment own the 100% of the media and only his friends are in the constitutional court? Please explain it how could this more democratic?

This government at least try to shift the power to the 50-50 balance, what is - in my opinion - more democratic.

 

I can't believe all the press in Hungary is like the links vilas continuously posts.

I can't comment about the Hungarian press, but I'm sure some must be at least readable.

Of course. As I said, I never read such news as Bild or Sun or muslimwatchers... etc. And of course there mainstream media in Hungary. But before Orban, it was balanced 99-1 favor to liberals, what was a very unfair situation. And you called it more democratic. Now the balance is 50-50 in the media and you call it worst.

 

Try also to read international press.

I did, I do and I will do.

And this is why I know how this media lie about Hungary.

It's so funny, because in 2008 Orban dream about to create a new election system similar to USA, where the voters have to pre-register themself before the election. The liberals bell the alarm (why? if it's not democratic, that means the USA is a dictatorship?) and Orban retreat and canceled his idea. But most international media in 2015 accuse Orban, he is a nazi dictator, because there is a pre-register system in hungarian elecetion. :) They are so stupid, they pull out the accusations from a very old hat (what was filled by hungarian liberals first time). And they cannot update or at least check their information. I guess this is what you call "trustworthy". ;)

 

 

that the previous government was doing bad things is not a good reason to make even worse things;

As I told you, I understand this. But you didn't answer to my question: Why the heck EU didn't ring the alarm, when liberal government do bad, anti-democratic act?

 

because making that crap official with a law does make thing worse. They are not just continuing the same loop.

No, it's not worst. It's the same. And yes, it's the very same loop.

 

EDIT: why don't we instead ask the opposite question? What is the reason for this government to make this law?

If you can answer the original question, I will easly answer the reversed question.

But I understand it's not so easy to you or Tonci, because you didn1y answer yet, just repetaing false accusationas ablot how it's worset... It's not true and you still not answer why the EU didn1t stop the liberal government to do worst things than this gov do.

Is it to improve democracy? The economy? Or maybe their own interest?

And they did it pretty quickly too. Fighting tax evasion? Reducing bureaucracy? Not important. First we have to put our guys in the important tv spots; that is what will change the country.

It's very easy to answer:

In Orban's first government section was 1998-2002. He do what you ecpect now from Poles. He didn't touch to media and constitutional court.

He fight against corraption, reduce bureaucracy... etc. And what happened? Every single action was failed, because const.court deny all of them. The courst was full with the friends of previous liberal government. And they sabotaged every good thing what Orban want to do. And then the media (100% liberal) tell the people: Orban is looser, he cannot do anything. They lie, because it was not Orban, who didn1t fight the corraption or who didn't reduce the buerocracy. It was the liberals.

So when he won again in 2010, it was his first action to send half of the court with his men and now the balance is 50-50 as in a normal country. And if he do a really anti-constitutional act, the court will stop. But if he do the right thing, the court will not sabotage it, just because he is a conservative and the judgeds in the court are liberals.

[Rydygier 1309]

BTW the more I learn about Hungary path, the more symmetry between Hungary and Poland situation seem distinctive. At least one major difference seem to stay relations with Russia. Besides that - our president said, he would like to continue diplomacy path started by Lech Kaczynski (RIP), which also mean to strenghten international bounds between Visegrad group countries and in general to form kind of alliance of middle-Europe countries from North to the South. Seems the wise path for countries with such permanently difficult location - between western interests and Russia's ambitions. 

 

After yesterday Kaczynski-Orban meeting

 

 

 

Waszczykowski when asked about the attacks, which a few days ago took place in Cologne stated that the situation has created confusion in all European countries. It certainly drew attention to cautiously approach the young men who fled Germany from the war in the Middle East and the Balkans. - Thinking that among such a large wave of refugees can not find the representatives of the group, it was unjustified. This situation testifies to the fact that the wave of refugees could serve the terrorist organizations who want to destabilize Europe, - he said.

 

 

 

The foreign minister also referring to Jaroslaw Kaczynski yesterday's meeting with the leader of the Hungarian party Fidesz - Victor Orban. In his opinion, both sides long time wanted a meeting of "two friendly leaders of two friendly parties, the two friendly countries." - We will want to learn from the experience of Hungary in international talks with Europe - said Waszczykowski. Also he found that although it is impossible to copy all Hungarian solutions, is deeply believe in their legitimacy. - It's a solution that brought success not only Orban, but throughout Hungary - emphasized Witold Waszczykowski.

[bardosy 158]

BTW the more I learn about Hungary path, the more symmetry between Hungary and Poland situation seem distinctive. At least one major difference seem to stay relations with Russia. Besides that - our president said, he would like to continue diplomacy path started by Lech Kaczynski (RIP), which also mean to strenghten international bounds between Visegrad group countries and in general to form kind of alliance of middle-Europe countries from North to the South. Seems the wise path for countries with such permanently difficult location - between western interests and Russia's ambitions.

There are a lot of differences:

1. Hungary is a small country, with few population, small market and weak army. Poland is a big country with huge population, huge market and strong army.

Western countries barks to Hungary but honestly they give a fuck about Hungary. But with Poland they will be very different. They cannot hurt Poland because they don1t want to lose a such a big market. But they cannot be too soft to, because they need Poland much more than Hungary.

2. Poland (and specially the new government) has an excelent relationship with USA.

It means Poland is much better defended in international diplomacy by US. But it means Poland (as the strongest US ally in the region) is much bigger treat to EU. And it will occure the same as above: they (EU) cannot let Poland to do anything, but they cannot do anything against Poland.

3. Poland is a historically catholic country - I know, I know, it's not mean they are really religious, but every polish, even the ateist are deeply involved in chatolic culture, because it was the only thing what keep you together during the occupation of other countries in centuries.

Hungarians are mostly ateist, individualist and we are very hard to unite. And not just because of communism.

(I'm a catholic, but not just culturally, but deeply religious.) In statistically 60% of Hungary is christian, but less than 10% go to church at sunday.

I mean, in Poland there are other level of society, not just the politics. Eg, if PiS do something wrong, the church can mobilise the population against the government without a media. But in Hungary, the politics level the only one who can mobilise the society. No other levels and it's not good. (and I know currently PiS has a very good relation with church - and it's tell me I'm right - but if PiS do bad things (eg. shoot jews or something) church can (because they have deep relation with huge society) do against the politics level.

You mentioned the Russians. Please understand me, Orban or Hungary is not Russia-oriented. Putin hate Orban, because his carrier started in a anti-soviet rally, when he did a speech and demand the russians leave Hungary. It was the start of his career. And Putin never forget it.

But Orban is much more independent (and he love to be independent) as Kaczynski. And to be independent you need to stand on more than one legs. Kaczynski stand only in one leg: USA. If you ask me, it should be good enough to us, to Orban too. But he thinks different as me. He like dancing ally to ally. Because he don't want to be a puppet of Obama for exchange to be independent of Merkel (or reverse). I understand it, but it's very dangerous, because we have no other option: USA or EU. But he thinks there are China and Russia. As his voter, I really disagree with it. But I know, he knows Moscow and Bejing and he don't trust in these powers. He just use these relations to gain independence and use it as political currency when he meets with US or EU.

So Orban or Hungary never was friend of Russia or never was in good relation with Putin. (Putin also use this "friendship" as diplomatic weapon, when he is separated. But now, when he gain back his freedom, he dumped Orban and Hungary)

I write it to you, because I know polish press suggested about Hungary and Orban, we are Putin-fans (one of your previous minister said it much vulgar ;) ) But you have to know, we aren't.

[Rydygier 1309]

I hear you, agree and understand. Well, in such situation Hungary likely may be even more interested in some middle-Europe alliance as local alternative for global powers to ally with. Better to be one of the partners, than servant. And, as an alliance, be more equal partner than servant for EU, USA, Russia, whatever. Question is, how strong such local alliance could be and how much would achieve. 

[bardosy 158]

Agreed. But V4 was only a light partnership in the last 20 years. This migration crisis made stronger V4. And it could be a great alliance as you suggested.

 

But honestly, over of this dream, I1m a little bit sceptical of it. Slovakia thinks we are their arch-enemy and when they are not in danger (like migrant crisis) they are very hostile against us.

My former boss told me when I happily voted to EU, it should be better to make an allince with the former eastern block. Even if Austria is the leader country of this alliance. Slovenia, Croatia, Austria, Slovakia, Czech Rep, Poland, Hungary and maybe Romania. I didn't understand him in that time, but I'm clearly now.


Oh, and I forgot a huge difference between Poland and Hungary. It seems irrelevant, but not.

4. Poland is a slavic nation with lot of potential natural allies. Hungary has no relatives in Europe (Finland is only language-relatives, but we don't understand each other). We are alone.

[dontknowhow 33]

I´m astonished that our polish forum members fail to see that.

And it's not only Poland.

I'm not sure what's wrong with them. I might be tempted to say that they are young democracies, but there are other democracies in Europe that are not much older (Spain, Portugal, Greece). I don't see these things happening, not even in Greece. It must be an Eastern European thing.

 

Note that that comment refers not only to the judges in the court, but also to the changes in voting requirements. A constitution is a set of basic concepts, and as such it is subject to different interpretations. That doesn't mean that the constitutional court is useless. Even with friendly judges (supposedly competent people), and consequent friendly interpretation of the constitution, the court is still the guardian of the constitution. It is explained very well here:

 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-31/poland-s-new-leaders-take-aim-at-democracy

 

In practice, everyone usually understands, in almost every country, that there are different possible interpretations of a constitution, and that these often correspond to different political views.

Given this reality, one of the main functions of a constitutional court is to keep new majority governments in check and protect the legacy and rights of the older government that’s now out of office. This checking function in turn is supposed to strengthen democracy itself.

 

The constitutional court’s role in this process is to act as a kind of drag on the ruling majority party, constraining its will to power. In this account, it doesn’t much matter if the court is especially objective or even trustworthy. What matters is that the court encourages the likelihood of future party-switching by pointing out the majority government’s overreach.

 

Note that the author of the article is a professor of constitutional and international law at Harvard University.

 

And in that way there is no medium what publish the whole body of truth.

That's the same as objectivity. No one does it 100%, but some do it better than others.

 

And this is why I know how this media lie about Hungary.

Yeah that's right. All major press organizations lie about Hungary. You are the only one knowing the truth. Absolutely.

You know, they say the same in Russia.

 

Of course. As I said, I never read such news as Bild or Sun or muslimwatchers... etc. And of course there mainstream media in Hungary. But before Orban, it was balanced 99-1 favor to liberals, what was a very unfair situation. And you called it more democratic. Now the balance is 50-50 in the media and you call it worst.

Again with this 50-50 thing. I give up.

I posted a link to a prominent conservative think tank, and a link to a major global right wing newspaper. See if you can talk to them.

Ah yes, I forgot: they lie about Hungary.

[Rydygier 1309]

 

 

they are very hostile against us.

 

 

Indeed, that's the big obstacle - mutual, historical resentments. One can't build durable alliance, if members hate each other. This could change in very long time a bit of course, if reason is not actual. 

 

I would expand the scope North and maybe South or South-East of Visegrad group, including eg Baltic States or even Finland. Lithuania, unlike Finland, for example has strong resentment against Poland, which isn't really symmetrical (many Poles just don't understand really, why Lituanian are so negaitve towards us, but one has to know a bit more latest history to learn the reasons), but this isn't inveterate through centuries aversion yet. 

 

BTW Poles may be mostly Slavic people by genes, and partially by mentality, but Poland isn't too much into this, rather a bit distanced to that part of heritage, more western as for culture (a mix in fact). Note, the biggest "fan" of pan-slavism etc. ideas is Russia. Yeah. Exactly. 

[x3kj 1247]

And now this is what happening in Poland too. The new government need media, because all mayor, mainstrem media is in the hands of liberals. So they try to create a few conservative ones to make the balance fair. And what western media do? The very same as they did with Hungary.

Does it surprise you that western media are biased? They want what is good for them / for western interests, and if they think that a "good" movement is "bad" for them they write bad about it...

I remember when "Spiegel" wrote how supreme court judges continuously blocked new laws designed to give the state more power over citizens and suggested that it was "borderline power abuse" from the supreme court. Spiegel, acting like the "serious media" is owned by same people as the toilett paper called Bild

[bardosy 158]

I hope Telegraph is trustworthy enough to dontknow how:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/12086883/Viktor-Orban-is-no-fascist-hes-David-Camerons-best-chance-at-EU-reform.html

[dontknowhow 33]

Does it surprise you that western media are biased? They want what is good for them / for western interests, and if they think that a "good" movement is "bad" for them they write bad about it...

I remember when "Spiegel" wrote how supreme court judges continuously blocked new laws designed to give the state more power over citizens and suggested that it was "borderline power abuse" from the supreme court. Spiegel, acting like the "serious media" is owned by same people as the toilett paper called Bild

I wonder why the terrible western media are not biased when they talk about Chile, but they are biased when they talk about Greece or Turkey, or even Italy.

 

I hope Telegraph is trustworthy enough to dontknow how:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/12086883/Viktor-Orban-is-no-fascist-hes-David-Camerons-best-chance-at-EU-reform.html

What, you suddenly like western media? Now they are not so biased anymore?

 

I don't see many facts stated there, by the way. It's an oped, which I find interesting, even if with a populist tone (against the "fat cats of banking and commerce", obviously). I don't follow the Telegraph, but I find this article surprising.

Aside from the usual stuff about refugees, which for a conservative British newspaper shouldn't be maybe so surprising, the real interesting part is probably this one:

 

 

Orbán has taken a lot of stick for his comments about an "illiberal democracy". Again this is because those unacquainted with Hungarian politics don’t understand that "liberal" has come to mean spineless Left-wing politics, the very welfare state bloating that the Conservatives oppose

 

It could be a fair comment, I don't know. But that doesn't change the rest, sorry. The fact that the other side sucks doesn't mean you should approve everything he's doing.

 

Another particularly interesting part is this one:

 

 

I’d argue Orbán has already won the next election in 2018, precisely because he took a tough stand on outsiders inviting themselves in, and because Hungary has qualified for the European football championships, the first major championships for its team in forty years

 

That says it all, I guess.

[bardosy 158]

Hahaha, it's funny. But don't worry, if Orban win the next election it will not because of football. But yes, I never mentioned it before, because in my opinion it is a bullshit (because I'm not a football-fan), but it's true: Orban is a football-fan who spent a lot of tax-payers' money to football. And in Hungary there are a lot of male, who always dream about the good old shine, when we beat UK, Argentine and Germany in football. And the liberals always said, no need money into football, because if its success is not depend on money. Now they are wrong, because quality of any sport is depend on the quantity of money what spent on it. But I really doubt it's relevant in the popularity of Orban. The current boost is Köln, because we could freely and fearless party at NYE in Budapest. And this is because he built that fence.

But no one can garantee what will happen until 2018 and what will help him to win or lose.

 

And you are right, this article contains the very same amount of facts as anti-Hungarian articles: none.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and all this article because of Cameron extends his UK election campaign to Budapest. So this is only UK interior politics. Nothing serious.

[dontknowhow 33]

But don't worry, if Orban win the next election it will not because of football.

The author of the article you like seems to have a different opinion

 

But yes, I never mentioned it before, because in my opinion it is a bullshit

Aaah.... see? You misreported information :)

 

The current boost is Köln, because we could freely and fearless party at NYE in Budapest. And this is because he built that fence.

I can imagine. Which doesn't make him less of a racist.

But again, your article seems to have a different opinion.

 

And you are right, this article contains the very same amount of facts as anti-Hungarian articles: none.

It's an op-ed, an article meant to express an opinion, not to report facts:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op-ed

 

That doesn't mean it must be disregarded, it only means that discussions about trustworthiness (which I consider more applicable in the case of facts) are not so relevant.

 

In this case I would rather look at the populist statement about the fat cats, and the football thing, which is unclear if the author approves or not. Maybe something more structured would have been nicer. I don't follow the Telegraph, but it's a bit of a disappointment.

Oh well, at the end the only newspaper (actually it's a magazine) that never failed me is the Economist. Shit happens I guess.

 

Nice to see that you are moving from "anti-Hungarian press" to "anti-Hungarian articles" by the way. You are making progress :). See if you can remember that.

Now the most troubling thing is that "anti-Hungarian". There is no anti-anything; this is not a war. The fact that a lot of people consider Orban an idiot doesn't mean we are anti-Hungarian, or Hungary wouldn't be in the EU.

This reminds me of the colonies thing.

[Rydygier 1309]

It required new gov to happen, but seems, we finally get true territorial defence. It was PiS' plans announced earlier. 3 brigades in this year, in the eastern Poland, as a target - one OT company per each county (380 in total). As I read, it's part of wider doctrine change, to make army more effective as factual defensive force of the country, less for foreign missions. Territorial Defence shape is currently under discussion, and is/will be consulted with known Polish proponents of this idea: some authorities, some civic enthusiasts associations, neglected till now. 

[bardosy 158]

The author of the article you like seems to have a different opinion

Yes, and I as an independent thinker disagree with him. In two reasons:

1. If it's a big boost to Orban, that the national team is enter to the championship in 2015, it will be a big fail in 2016 when the national team will fall from the champion ship. If it's true what the author said and the national team wil not win the cup (it's only 0.0001% chance), Orban will lost the election. But I'm really doubt there are connection between the succes of him and the football team.

2. Orban try to convert football to a family sport, because now it's a hoolingan sport. And he did everithing to reduce the hooliganism. (If you think the riot police was brutal against the militant immigrants at Röszke, just see what riot police do with hungarian hooligans) So football-fans hate Orban and they vote to the librals, because liberals' main ammo is the hooliganism in Hungary. So they give the hooligans free lawyers and try to stop Orban to reduce more hooliganism. Without hooligans, liberals cannot do pictures in Hungary about nazis.

 

I can imagine. Which doesn't make him less of a racist.

Following the EU-rule and register them is not racism.

As I told you before, we didn't close our borders as Croatia did. We close the green-border, but every official border station was open, and really refugees could enter Hungary if they let the authorities to register them as EU demand from us. And this is not racism. If every immigrant were registered, the German police could catch the colognese-criminals much easier. But they were not registered.

Anyway, did you know that Hungarian far-right party (Jobbik) say the very same as you and IndeedPete: "islam is the religion of peace and it's a mistake to mix the criminals with the innocent millions". You should be a very good hungarian far-right voter... :P

[dontknowhow 33]

If it's true what the author said and the national team wil not win the cup (it's only 0.0001% chance), Orban will lost the election.

No, if what the author says is true Orban has already won the election, because Hungary qualified. He's pretty clear about that.

 

As I told you before, we didn't close our borders as Croatia did.

Don't put Croatia at the same level as Hungary. Croatians started holding people off because they couldn't take them anymore, not because they are racists.

 

We close the green-border, but every official border station was open, and really refugees could enter Hungary

no they couldn't. And the ones who try to enter illegally are put in jail. Which is, by the way, against international rules. Or you only want to follow the EU rules?

 

Anyway, did you know that Hungarian far-right party (Jobbik) say the very same as you and IndeedPete: "islam is the religion of peace and it's a mistake to mix the criminals with the innocent millions". You should be a very good hungarian far-right voter... :P

I really don't give a rat's ass about Islam, I only care that it's not the religion of violence.

 

Now, I was about to post some very rude statements, but I thought I might get this really clear first. So I want to ask: do you think it's not a mistake to mix the criminals with the innocent millions?

[dontknowhow 33]

So it seems that it's now the turn of the central bank in Poland:

 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-11/poland-needs-an-independent-central-bank

 

The state television is a problem, but the constitutional court and the central bank are a serious problem. The annoying thing is that, when the shit hits the fan, the EU will have to help. Let's hope it doesn't go that far.

[bardosy 158]

No, if what the author says is true Orban has already won the election, because Hungary qualified. He's pretty clear about that.

Then he don't understand how a footbal-fan works, but it's very simple: if they won, he loves Orban, if they lose, he hates Orban. And in 2016 they will lose.

Don't put Croatia at the same level as Hungary. Croatians started holding people off because they couldn't take them anymore, not because they are racists.

You are the racist!!! It's very clear now. Why the hell you think these false accusations???

Croatinas close the borders from the immigrants as very same Hungary did. But croatians close the border from the serbians too. They close their all borders, nt just the green one.

We closed only the green border and everybody can enter in the offical border stations. The serbians could use their passports and the immigrants could enter the registration process.

no they couldn't. And the ones who try to enter illegally are put in jail. Which is, by the way, against international rules. Or you only want to follow the EU rules?

This all accusation are lies. I'm really supriesed you belive in this lies since summer. I hoped you checked your sorces and you finally accept the truth: Hungary didin't close the border. Everybody can enter it but only in the official border statins and only after indentify himself or register. And yes, this is the EU rule.

[dontknowhow 33]

Croatinas close the borders from the immigrants as very same Hungary did.

No way:

 

http://time.com/4039742/croatia-border-crossings-closed-refugees-migrant-crisis/

 

Croatia’s Interior Minister Ranko Ostojic told reporters that the country was “absolutely full†and could no longer take any more refugees

 

We closed only the green border and everybody can enter in the offical border stations. The serbians could use their passports and the immigrants could enter the registration process.

Yes, yes, that's the official rhetoric. Strangely, there haven't been many requests, have they? And the ones who come illegally, who would have the right to apply for asylum, go to prison.

Here is a different story, and I posted this link already. Maybe you missed it:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/30/viktor-orban-fidesz-hungary-prime-minister-europe-neo-nazi

 

This all accusation are lies. I'm really supriesed you belive in this lies since summer. I hoped you checked your sorces and you finally accept the truth: Hungary didin't close the border. Everybody can enter it but only in the official border statins and only after indentify himself or register. And yes, this is the EU rule.

Exactly. So this means that those who enter the country illegally go to prison. And this, I would say, is a fact.

And this is against international laws, not EU laws.

 

http://www.unhcr.org/419c783f4.pdf

 

 

Article 31 (1) requires that refugees shall not be penalized solely by rea-

son of unlawful entry or because, being in need of refuge and protec-

tion, they remain illegally in a country.

 

And I'm sorry, but it's an important question: do you think it's not a mistake to mix the criminals with the innocent millions?

[bardosy 158]

No way:

http://time.com/4039742/croatia-border-crossings-closed-refugees-migrant-crisis/

Of course, it's base on lie. The croatian officials lied to you.

Hungary was much more full then Croatia. So many immigrant arrived to Croatia a week, as many arrived to Hungary a day. Criatia is 80% big as Hungary. If they were full, we were much more full.

But we didn't close the border as they do.

That is the big difference.

And I'm sorry, but it's an important question: do you think it's not a mistake to mix the criminals with the innocent millions?

Yes, it's important. This is why you are an extremly good voter of far-right in Hungary.

The problem is, you mixed hungarians with war-criminals when you accuse us with crimes what we never do. And the funny part, you understand the reasons, but you only apply these to Croatia and not Hungary. This is why you are racist.

And the deeper problem is, you are not an independent thinker. You never check your sources, just believe in the lies what they told you.

[dontknowhow 33]

Of course, it's base on lie. The croatian officials lied to you.

of course. Because they had so few refugees, with such a huge territory, that what they say is totally unbelievable

 

But we didn't close the border as they do.

That is actually true, because they keep taking refugees, unlike you

 

Yes, it's important.

so why don't you answer it?

 

And the deeper problem is, you are not an independent thinker. You never check your sources, just believe in the lies what they told you.

Yes, absolutely. I grew up in dictatorship, am not used to democracy and free speech, and I never follow international press, including press I disagree with.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head.

[dontknowhow 33]

Something very interesting concerning privacy at work, just by coincidence again regarding an event in Eastern Europe:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-12/companies-can-snoop-on-you-during-working-hours-court-decides

 

 

“It is not unreasonable for an employer to want to verify that the employees are completing their professional tasks during working hours,†the court in Strasbourg, France, ruled Tuesday.

 

Not sure what to make of it.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/european-court-rules-employers-monitor-online-communication-201740833.html

[Tonci87 163]

Something very interesting concerning privacy at work, just by coincidence again regarding an event in Eastern Europe:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-12/companies-can-snoop-on-you-during-working-hours-court-decides

 

 

Not sure what to make of it.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/european-court-rules-employers-monitor-online-communication-201740833.html

 

 

How is that news? In Germany it´s pretty clear that you are supposed to work when you are on your workplace. If it isn´t explicitly allowed then you must not do private stuff during office hours. And yes you can get fired for something like that.