USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Cotala Studios 10]

Dude, are you shitting me?!

nope, just pissing on the truth :o

[maturin 12]

How does a civil war even start without a militia? It's really freaking hard to do.

[BigMorgan 11]

How does a civil war even start without a militia? It's really freaking hard to do.

Well when some of the wealthiest people in a nation stand to lose a large portion of that wealth based on the liberation of what they called "property".... :rolleyes:

[ryguy 10]

Not coincidentally, in the only civil war in US history, the starters of it were fighting for slavery and less rights so they could profit, not for freedom.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

Selective reading, ah does it make it easy to correct you guys.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/06/national/main6464449.shtml

Not only that, but guess what? The original website talked about things in the bible OH NO! I guess that means any belief in religion equals religious nuts? I guess half the united states is religious nuts for believing in an anti-christ. Militia with religious family values is all they were and ever will be. Watching the case unfold was comical. They were ACCUSED of planning to kill cops, ACCUSED of making bombs, and ACCUSED of plans to attack the government. Guess what happened? The judge decided they were not a current threat. There was never a real case for this one. Anybody who knew about this militia before it happened KNEW about the BS case. A recording was released, this was all the evidence the FBI had, and there was nothing in this recording. It was a speech that literally was not relevant to any of the charges.

And anybody who listens to Mark Potok is an idiot, and I wont even articulate that any further.

Hate Tracker/Gossip boy has gone on a rampage against any 2nd amendment advocating groups, and anybody who they perceive as "right wing", even libertarians.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/crime/2010/04/02/bts.michigan.militia.attorney.cnn.html

[echo1 0]

We are geographically isolated with 2,000 miles of ocean separating us from any powerful countries that don't share our ideals.

Well actually, the US is only 57 miles away from Russia. Ever look at a map of Alaska?

They're even thinking of building a bridge over it.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

Not coincidentally, in the only civil war in US history, the starters of it were fighting for slavery and less rights so they could profit, not for freedom.

History isn't your strong point is it... :j:

The American Civil War was started when most of the agricultural states seceded from the industrial ones. It was class warfare more than anything else. Reasons for secession included, states rights, taxes, and slavery. When the federal government failed to release forts held in the seceded states, they were attacked, and the civil war had started. Many argue that slavery was the only reason the southern states where so productive, but many also believe that even without slaves, agriculture in the southern states would still be in far higher capacity, and the civil war would have started regardless. So its not really a war about slavery, but about Lincoln trying to maintain tax output profits from southern states that had seceded.

[maddogx 13]

Reasons for secession included, states rights, taxes, and slavery.

Slavery being the primary reason, states rights in this case also being closely related to slavery, and taxes being one of the minor reasons... but nice try.

Edited September 14, 2010 by MadDogX

[tacticalnuggets 24]

Slavery being the primary reason, states rights in this case also being closely related to slavery, and taxes being one of the minor reasons... but nice try.

That is absolutely not true. It is simply a myth. A myth perpetuated by the America's crappy education system.

Nice try, but a short reply isn't going to solidify your stance in this argument.

[maddogx 13]

That is absolutely not true. It is simply a myth. A myth perpetuated by the America's crappy education system.

It's the commonly held view of the events leading to the civil war. Like you said, the one being perpetrated by America's (crappy) education system. So where are you getting your alternate information, and how can you be so sure that it is more valid than the mainstream view?

Nice try, but a short reply isn't going to solidify your stance in this argument.

My stance is already pretty solid, thanks. Short reply or not.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

It's the commonly held view of the events leading to the civil war. Like you said, the one being perpetrated by America's (crappy) education system. So where are you getting your alternate information, and how can you be so sure that it is more valid than the mainstream view?

My stance is already pretty solid, thanks. Short reply or not.

The plethora of information on the internet and a historical look at Lincolns stance. Not to mention all the states in the Union that still allowed slavery. :j:

[maddogx 13]

The plethora of information on the internet...

Too vague. I can find a "plethora of information on the internet" on the existence of aliens, how 9/11 was an inside job, about 2Pac still being alive...

If you're expecting people to go looking for information that supports your arguments, all I can say is: good luck with that.

and a historical look at Lincolns stance.

Stance on slavery? You mean the fact that he was against it, and ultimately helped abolish it? :rolleyes:

Not to mention all the states in the Union that still allowed slavery. :j:

So you noticed that not all pro-slavery states seceded from the union. How incredibly astute of you. Too bad it doesn't support your argument.

[froggyluv 2130]

Selective reading, ah does it make it easy to correct you guys.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/06/national/main6464449.shtml

So they made bail ,so what? Maybe they had a Liberal judge :D

Also important to note that an appeals court overuled 5 of the defendent's right to bail and they remain in jail until trial.

Not only that, but guess what? The original website talked about things in the bible OH NO! I guess that means any belief in religion equals religious nuts? I guess half the united states is religious nuts for believing in an anti-christ

Theres lots of stuff in the Bible, just like the Quran, some is filled with peaceful ancedotes, others great horror and violance. Also they're mixing their gun rights with attacking the evil "Brotherhood" and trying to use Biblical references to defend their opinions. As far as believing in the Anti-Christ, hey believe as you please, but when you start getting paranoid with long guns and seeing the Anti-Christ everywhere -thats a problem.

Watching the case unfold was comical. They were ACCUSED of planning to kill cops, ACCUSED of making bombs, and ACCUSED of plans to attack the government. Guess what happened? The judge decided they were not a current threat

First, that wasn't the trial, just the indictment. And yes they are accused of all of those things -guess we'll find out. If they are found guilty, will you still defend them?

Anybody who knew about this militia before it happened KNEW about the BS case

Why, do you personally know them?

And anybody who listens to Mark Potok is an idiot, and I wont even articulate that any further.

Hate Tracker/Gossip boy has gone on a rampage against any 2nd amendment advocating groups, and anybody who they perceive as "right wing", even libertarians.

I don't know much about him except after a brief look up, he seems to be a watchdog against extremist/hate groups - so you hate this guy but approve of the Hutaree eh.......?

Edited September 14, 2010 by froggyluv

[Cotala Studios 10]

Reasons for secession included, states rights, taxes, and slavery.

States rights to do what? Keep their slaves because they thought lincoln was going to abolish slavery? I thought so.

[BigMorgan 11]

States rights to do what? Keep their slaves because they thought lincoln was going to abolish slavery? I thought so.

lol :D

Seriously, there is nothing more too it than that. I guess if you want a more detailed explanation of why the Southern slates began planning their secession immediately after Lincoln's landslide election, which was largely driven by Northern voters seeking (at the very least) a halt to the expansion of slavery, you'll have to look elsewhere than a web forum centered on a video game.

Edited September 14, 2010 by BigMorgan

[tacticalnuggets 24]

lol :D

Seriously, there is nothing more too it than that. I guess if you want a more detailed explanation of why the Southern slates began planning their secession immediately after Lincoln's landslide election, which was largely driven by Northern voters seeking (at the very least) a halt to the expansion of slavery, you'll have to look elsewhere than a web forum centered on a video game.

And thats why i'm absolutely laughing at you guys. You are the absolute display of ignorance and blind belief in propaganda. You know how long its going to take me to post all of the sources I have? DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG?! You guys know what the definition of plethora is right?

You guys WANT to believe that these people are bad, and that what authority tells you is right, because It down right scares you that its a definite possibility their wrong or lying. :D

Infact, I could smash you guys all day long. No I did not personally know hutaree, but I knew about them years before they got arrested. Everybody commented on how stupid they were to post up videos of themselves on youtube, but nobody thought they were a hate group, or planned to kill cops, they did not preach any of that. They figuratively posted parts of the bible related to self defense on their website. Thats the only thing they are guilty of, should I go get the list of items that the government claimed was going to be used to make bombs? Cause you guys will all be shocked and find yourselves to be bomb makers!

I love how everyone is nit picking at each statement, tells me you guys are running out of excuses to bash libertarianism and religion. What this entire argument has been about. "We video gamers are gonna tag team him", thats what I'm imagining right now and its absolutely comical.

But on a more friendly side ask yourselves this,

1. Should people be responsible for themselves?

2. Should we have a right to control other people?

3. What system of government do I honestly believe in?

4. Is it a possibility that some sociopaths (5% of the pop) are out to gain political power?

[Cotala Studios 10]

You guys WANT to believe that these people are bad, and that what authority tells you is right, because It down right scares you that its a definite possibility their wrong or lying.

You're right. Crazy me, I want to believe that the people who beat my ancestors, forced them to work on farms to make them money, and then fought a war to keep them in bondage are bad. I should be ashamed. Shit, thats just plain unamerican of me to think of a slavedriver as a bad man :j:

[ryguy 10]

Selective reading, ah does it make it easy to correct you guys.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/06/national/main6464449.shtml

Not only that, but guess what? The original website talked about things in the bible OH NO! I guess that means any belief in religion equals religious nuts? No, actually you're putting words in my mouth... I respect every religion including christianity. I think murderers and terrorists are nuts. I guess half the united states is religious nuts for believing in an anti-christ.

Research isn't your strong point is it?

Yes, the original website does talk about the bible... It also talks about jesus. And about going to war with "the evil jews" and Muslims.

And now on the case... So the evidence is one tape you say that doesn't even say anything. Were all of these charges just created out of thin air?

Nine suspects associated with Hutaree, which is purportedly a Christian-based militia group, have been charged with conspiring to kill police officers and then attack a funeral in hopes of killing more law enforcement officials, federal prosecutors said Monday. U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade said agents moved on the group because the militia members were planning an attack sometime in April.

ine members of the militia had planned to kill a member of law enforcement and then plant an improvised explosive device to attack the subsequent funeral procession. Other possible acts included killing a law enforcement official and his or her family at home or luring a member of law enforcement with a false 911 emergency call and then killing him or her.

Although weather ultimately prevented the conspirators from reaching their destination, Stone allegedly identified law enforcement officers in a "specific community" near his residence and one officer as potential targets, according to the indictment.

Once such an attack was launched, the indictment alleges that Hutaree members would then retreat to one of several "rally points" to detonate trip-wired improvised explosive devices.

What part of this screams "normal church-going family doing nothing wrong"? Please enlighten me.

And BTW, if you think there was only one tape of evidence you're wrong. FBI had informants. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125856761

"I think going back a couple of years ago, we kinda got wind of this group and there could be some issues with them," said Andrew Arena, the FBI's special agent in charge in Detroit. "Like any extremist group, I don't think in reality they believe that they're going to personally overthrow the U.S. government. The plan is to basically be the match or the spark to ignite the revolution."

Edited September 14, 2010 by ryguy

[froggyluv 2130]

And thats why i'm absolutely laughing at you guys. You are the absolute display of ignorance and blind belief in propaganda.

Absolutely every Far right wing site I've come across is filled to the brim with just about every conspiricy theory known to man. Isn't it quite possible that you yourself are a victim of propaganda?

Heres how I see it, there is without question an extremist Right and an extremist Left. The Left'ers were making quite the fuss when Dubya was in office but it seemed to happen in slower motion and escalated after the start of the Iraqi War/Haliburton stuff. Now we see the Far Right, accusing the new adminastration everything from Lenin to Stalin to Hitler to the Anti-Christ with militant groups threatening sometimes veiled sometimes outright, that if things don't change the way they see fit, their going to start an armed revolution. These seemed to happen almost immediately after Obama's election.

There is much talk of a great "purge" among Republicans,Right-Wingers by the Tea PArty movement. This purge seems to imply that many Republicans were not "hardcore conservative " enough. It now seems that the lines between the old moderate Conservative and the Extreme Right have been blurred -hence why no Tea Party'ers seem to be aware, acknowledge or will admit that a fringe element does exist in their party -because they're already in it. Like I said, if you were a true independent, you would see praise and blame in some Democratic policies and the same in Conservatives. The Right no longer sees any faults in itself and feels content blaming everything on "The Liberal."

This is the very definition of idealogy. If Obama woke up tommorrow and enacted absolutely every point the Tea Party'ers wanted - they'd claim he was Satan lulling them into false security -there is no pleasing them...

You guys WANT to believe that these people are bad...

No, but the evidence so far doesn't help me believe that they are good. Much like Moderate muslims must work hard in distancing themselves in the strongest terms from Militant Islam for us to trust them, Miltias need to do the same. Could you imagine if Moderate American Muslims started stockpiling weapons, doing para-military exercises in the woods? What if one of their groups was infilitrated and was found to be plotting to kill Law Enforcement officials and the other groups stood up for them...? Would kinda make it hard to trust any of them dont ya think? In the same way, Militias who have no intention of starting any crazy Anti-Christ wars need to be the first to condemn such groups if they expect the public not to fear them.

Edited September 14, 2010 by froggyluv

[maddogx 13]

You know how long its going to take me to post all of the sources I have? DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG?!

I literally burst out laughing when I read that. More drama, baby! MORE DRAMA!

Anyway, who's asking you to post all the sources? Why don't you just post one or two of the more legitimate ones?

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

This thread is awesome viewing, thanks all for making it so entertaining.

Tacticalnuggets is a little naive as to the mechanics of building a case like the Hutaree one. Pretty much everyone is in posession of materials that can be used to make a bomb, I know that I am in "posession of information useful to a terrorist" just by having a GCSE in Chemistry and a brain. The thing is proving intent to use it for bad stuff. Intent was pretty much proven I think in their case which puts them way beyond a friendly family of churchgoers.

[st_dux 26]

I guess half the united states is religious nuts for believing in an anti-christ.

Well, yeah, actually.

[ryguy 10]

You know how long its going to take me to post all of the sources I have? DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG?! You guys know what the definition of plethora is right?

Try being a politician and telling that to media matters or fact checker. I'm sure that would go over well. I would actually like to see one, two, five minimum. I've already cited all of my sources.

You guys WANT to believe that these people are bad, and that what authority tells you is right, because It down right scares you that its a definite possibility their wrong or lying. :D

Uhhh huh... we're just a bunch of sheeple listening to "the man" and "the big evil corporations". You, on the other hand, are preparing for "the big one" and stockpiling ammo and food. Just keep on waiting, I'm sure its gonna come at some point.

Infact, I could smash you guys all day long. No I did not personally know hutaree, but I knew about them years before they got arrested. Everybody commented on how stupid they were to post up videos of themselves on youtube, but nobody thought they were a hate group, or planned to kill cops, they did not preach any of that. They figuratively posted parts of the bible related to self defense on their website. Thats the only thing they are guilty of

So the fact that the FBI penetrated the organization itself doesn't mean anything? How about the other militia that reported the Hutaree to the cops after they asked for shelter?

I love how everyone is nit picking at each statement, tells me you guys are running out of excuses to bash libertarianism and religion. What this entire argument has been about. "We video gamers are gonna tag team him", thats what I'm imagining right now and its absolutely comical.

You poor, poor soul. Let me take a minute to collect myself while I think about how much we hurt you.

[Akira 0]

I see the Freepers have found this site now...

[Infam0us 10]

This thread is awesome viewing, thanks all for making it so entertaining.

I enjoy playing with trolls :D