USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[GRS 10]

Froggy, I've already explained the flaw in that reasoning multiple times. I'm going to ignore you.

Myke;2268956']It's more the fear of people with those guns.

Which, as the statistics you asked for show, is not rational compared to how many don't or use the guns for good.

Ok, now goodbye.

[froggyluv 2136]

Froggy, I've already explained the flaw in that reasoning multiple times. I'm going to ignore you.

.

Feel free to ignore but actually, you haven't showed me the flaw. The only thing you've suggested is that the Government has superceded Constitutional law by prohibiting certain weapons from the populace. The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

[GRS 10]

They can disagree all they want, and by doing so they failed to do their job (upholding and determining the law according to the constitution) correctly. Doesn't take a law school degree to know that. If you understand the text of 2A and the definition of "infringe" as well as the purpose of the Constitution then you cannot possibly be correct that it is OK, under the Constitution, to do that.

Ok, last post, I promise; gotta stick to what I said....

Edited December 26, 2012 by GRS

[[frl]myke 14]

Which, as the statistics you asked for show, is not rational compared to how many don't or use the guns for good.

It might be irrational but let me tell you a story which happened to me.

As you know, here in switzerland we do have a militia army. Se we have annualy courses during 3 weeks. Partially to refresh old things, partially to introduce new equipment. And of course for shooting practice. Now after such a practice, it is necessary to make a "gun unloaded control" before leaving the shooting range. Means, the Officer had to make sure that our rifles were secured, no ammo in magazine and no bullet chambered. To prepare the control, we had to secure the rifle, remove and unload the magazine and do a reload with no magazine inserted to make sure there is no bullet chambered.

To do this, we were standing in a row and the guy left of me started to manipulate his gun. Since he almost hit me twice with the top of the barrel (you know, the dangerous end) on the head, i looked closer on what he's doin (remember, the barrel was pointing directly to my head) and i saw: a magazine with bullets in the gun, safety lock set to "Full auto" instead of "Locked".

There i learned one thing: humanity is too stupid to handle such dangerous things.

[GRS 10]

I'm willing to respond to Myke just once more before I ban myself from this discussion, even if it makes me look like I can't stick to what I've said, because he's a pretty cool guy...

Two things. First I'm glad you didn't take a bullet and I'm sorry that happened to you, but one man is not humanity. Second, as I have shown through statistics, guns in the US, where this debate is occurring, are used more for good than for harm. So in the United States, as an example anyways, humanity is plenty smart to handle them. I respect your choice to not care for guns, but not for the suggestion that even good people should not have certain ones or parts.

[mosh 0]

Our kids over here might go through more gun safety and handling drills than your militia, Myke. I don't say that to be rude. I'm glad you made it out of that training session alive. I would have been very angry had that happened to me. Even the young kids here know better than to mistreat a firearm like that. And also understand the amount of adult supervision involved too when we let them shoot. It is not just some wild west shoot out...

Have a little more faith in humanity. :)

[Hillsbills 1]

The Constitution did not clearly define what weaponry so it behooves us modern men to best interept that. So forget the nuke, you can not buy a machinegun now -why? The Gov't. They are arms -why are you not going to war with the Gov't over this? You cannot buy grenade or equip chemical weapons -why? Same reason. The point is not all arms are accessible and it's up to the Gov't to determine what is and what is not legal arms.

You can buy machineguns. You can buy a grenade if you can find one and your state allows it. The constitution never said free speech should apply to the internet either.

[spooky lynx 73]

The thing is that while they are allowed, if driven above the speed limit it is illegal. They are trusted to keep below the speed limit, and if they don't obey it too many times, they lose their license. Your nonsense argument about cars doesn't work, because compared to magazines, it'd be like buying a 30 round magazine and only loading it with five rounds. And the sport car will still be used for transporting someone.

Many of car accidents are happen because of driving above speed limit. At least in my country. So it seems like many drivers ignore permitted speed limits. This results in thousands of dead and wounded every year. Attention, here's the question: why haven't all the cars that may ride more than 60 km/h got banned? Yesterday one drunken douchebag drove in the crowd and killed 11. But nobody wanted to ban all the cars that may drive that fast and thus kill so many people at once. If someone shot the same amount of people than many of us start ranting about either total gun ban or severe restrictions (no high capacity mags/foldable stocks/long barrel/automatic fire etc). Meh, one man said (he moved to Caucasus three years ago) that all the local jihadists just kids regarding death toll compared with cars and the accidents with them. He said "If you want to kill all the locals - just give all of them free cars and they do all the work in a half of the year!".

Moreover, just plain numbers may tell you that more people die in such accidents that because of guns. But still we can easily buy 600 hp heavy SUV that can ram dozens of people at once and kill them instantly. And noone can say for sure that its owner won't be ever drunken or high or become mentally unstable.

[froggyluv 2136]

The car/gun anology is false for a variety of reasons. First being that for the most part,we all need cars everyday for it's intended purpose -to get to our destinations. That is its primary purpose and because we all use them accidents are bound to happen.

Now lets look at the gun. What is its primary purpose -to kill another human. Deterrence of crime is also a use but this is not an every day occurance and actually more of a "what if" mindset in which for most people may be a once in a lifetime occurance. The need for these two tools to function on a daily level are vastly different.

Now, at least for myself, I don't believe guns need to be outright banned but much more regulated with loopholes closed. The car (here in the States) must be inspected once a year to determine its road safety -why is it so outlandish that the tool used for killing (both human and gun) need inspecting and regulating? Its really not asking much considering the potential lethality of the "tool".

[spooky lynx 73]

The purpose of the gun is to take away hostile object - either human or any animal (wild dog for example). Will it be lethal or non-lethal injury - it fully depends on the situation. So if most of the countries aren't save heavens then it means you have to have something to give you an ability to be safe or help other to be safe. As for cars purpose - yes, you need them to get to the destination. But you may get either on Chevrolet Spark or Ford Ka or on Lincoln Navigator, Land Cruiser 200, Nissan Patrol/Infiniti QX56 or sportcars (many of them are double-seaters only and have almost no space for cargo and passangers). Both serve the one purpose but the first ones can harm less people in the accident than second ones because of lesser weight and speed. While trying to increase security some countries outlaw automatic fire ability, limit capacity of magazines, restrict calibers or gun models available on the market. They think that a person wanting to buy something they concider dangerous (AR-15 for example) will try to commit a crime with it, abilities of the gun will make him think that crime will be easy to do. But at the same time nobody thinks that fast, heavy and modern car will make its owner think he is in the space shuttle and nothing will hurt him with all modern fancy systems providing extra help and easiness for driving.

[scrim 1]

Lynx, just stop it. There is no logic in comparing cars to assault rifles, as has been pointed out to you multiple times.

A car is designed for transport. A firearm is designed for killing. These are facts. These facts are why cars and firearms are so fundamentally different that they can't be compared. Cars tend to cause casualties when driven to fast, i.e. mishandled, but even when mishandled it only ends badly a fraction of the time. Assault rifles cause deaths when mishandled, many many more times.

A rifle like an M1 Garand is reasonable to have. You can shoot on targets with it, you can kill all of those viscous hogs out to get you when you're about your daily work, you can use it for hunting, and let's face it, it packs more of a punch than a 5.56 assault rifle, so until the day break ins are committed by more than 8 guys, it's a good weapon to defend yourself.

An assault rifle lacks the accuracy of a rifle at longer ranges, so it ain't as good for target shooting. When the killer hogs charge you, the smaller caliber and 30 round magazine won't really make it as good for that situation as the rifle either.

[spooky lynx 73]

Both assault rifles and cars kill and wound people when used wrong way. And cars kill more. So please explain why people often argue on things that give less harm and like things that give more harm? Again I may tell that about 30K dies in car accidents, and far less in accidents involving guns. I can name thousands of accidents caused by immature driving errors but only few accidents with immature guns handling. First ones I see every week, second ones I see barely once a 3-4 months. But despite this even in my country officials started to speculate about gun laws restrictions after recent massacre in US. Why don't they say about car engine restrictions after 11 died at once in recent car accident in Kamchatka region? Earlier 7 children died in another accidents killed by drunken douchebag on Toyota mark II. But nobody cares. Cars are sold no matter of any accident. But if any accident involving guns happens, first what I hear - "Remove guns from the market!!!!11". Why is it?

[[frl]myke 14]

Spooky, i completely agree with you. US citizens shouldn't be allowed to drive motorized vehicles since they are obviously not capable to drive them safely.

[spooky lynx 73]

[FRL]Myke, as one guy said - "You don't need to commit a genocide on Caucasus - just give the free car to everybody here, and they all will die after half a year".

[[frl]myke 14]

[FRL]Myke, as one guy said - "You don't need to commit a genocide on Caucasus - just give the free car to everybody here, and they all will die after half a year".

Funnily enough, recently i thought "just give everyone (and i do mean EVERYONE) a gun in the US and the problem will be solved within weeks."

[scrim 1]

Oh snap!

[Tonci87 163]

Well I guess it´s time to link this video

I like shooting guns, but I don´t need any. You know why? I live without fear.

[spooky lynx 73]

I suppose US citizens already have enough guns for it. But nothing happens still.

[Sakowski 1]

Well I guess it´s time to link this video

I like shooting guns, but I don´t need any. You know why? I live without fear.

In Europe all you need is a baseball bat, in USA you need M72 LAW

[[frl]myke 14]

I suppose US citizens already have enough guns for it. But nothing happens still.

You didn't get the point: i meant absolutely everybody! Regardless if they were in jail or actually are. No, absolutely no, exceptions.

[mosh 0]

Not everyone's reason for owning a gun is self defense. Am I going to pull out one of my AKs if one person breaks into my home and spray bullet holes and blood everywhere? No. I have Mace, hunting knives, baseball bat, etc... If someone tries to carjack me the same applies, I don't want to use excessive force if not needed. If multiple people break in though I'll be glad I have what I have loaded and ready to go. I lock my doors to protect the potential intruder, not myself. And of course I do not want anything I own to be stolen and used in a criminal manner so everything not being used is in a safe. If I had kids living with me I would take even more precautions.

Now of course none of this will happen. I do not live in fear nor do I plan on the hypothetical situations I listed. I live in a very nice area with almost zero crime (not a violent crime has happened in my city, Chesterfield MO, in a very long time). I understand why you all think we live like the Wild West out here. It's from media, films, and paranoia. Some if may even be close to the truth... the inner cities are a little more violent the the outer limits (suburbs) where I live. I live pretty far away from city life.

But trust me... after watching the movie Hostel, I will NEVER step foot in a European country. You people scare the shit out of me.

[Sakowski 1]

But trust me... after watching the movie Hostel, I will NEVER step foot in a European country. You people scare the shit out of me.

Movie - Reality totally different :)

Still to be honest, people blame video games for kids shooting guns ((watch out soon they will blame ArmA xD)) but isnt that a bit of parenting and government failure? :P

Edited December 26, 2012 by Sakowski

[[frl]myke 14]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any numbers at hand where murders are listed by "murdered on purpose" and "murdered during another crime (theft, carjacking etc)". Sorry, can't describe it better.

[kireta21 13]

Movie - Reality totally different :)

I think that's his point.

[Hillsbills 1]

Myke;2269165']Out of curiosity' date=' does anyone have any numbers at hand where murders are listed by "murdered on purpose" and "murdered during another crime (theft, carjacking etc)". Sorry, can't describe it better.[/quote']

I always go with the FBI stats but it's always hard to find exactly what you're looking for.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-10

It's interesting on this chart, there were 23 murders during vehicle theft, including carjacking. Six with guns, Seven with a knife.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11