What is the stupid HMMWV for?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We all watched "Blackhawk down and we regularily see the images of Iraq. Did you never ask yourself the question:

"Why are they using such lightly armored vehicules to patrol areas with enemy presence?"

Having the images in my head of german armoured vehicules, their speed, their strong armour as well as the multipurpose-capabilities, I seriously ask myself the question what the HMMWV has to do in a combat region.

It doesnt take much to penetrate an amoured jeep, the resistance fighters have even adopted a strategy to simply drop a grenade into it.

I dont want to claim that Blackhawk down was a realistic movie, but didnt you have the impression that if the convoy would have moved in with the armoured vehicules of the pakistanis right at the beginning, then human losses could have been prevented.

AND, I dont tend to be the only one holding this opinion!

Soldier of Fortune Magazine about the risk of using HMMWVs

A more furious perspective on what these cars have to do in a warzone

Some images of wounded soldiers (but acceptable content). A very deep discussion of the issue.

[Placebo 29]

"The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer."

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

damn! That source was perfect. It is gonna be back up in an hour!

[Akira 0]

I don't think they are suppose to be used as frontline APCs or anything. They are what they replaced.

A Jeep. Transportation.

The were used in Blackhawk Down, because that is all they had. They had no armor at all.

Quote[/b] ]I dont want to claim that Blackhawk down was a realistic movie, but didnt you have the impression that if the convoy would have moved in with the armoured vehicules of the pakistanis right at the beginning, then human losses could have been prevented.

It is pretty realistic. Pretty much how it happened.

And the Pakistani's under UN control would not have lent their APCs for a solely US operation.

Besides. Some of the APCs were taken out during the night rescue. They were only M113s, still highly susceptible to the RPGs that were on every block.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

M113 is no adequate substitute. High mobility? This tank may be older than most of the iraqi rpgs!

But something simillar to the Fuchs would be an adequate substitute. Ok, consumption may be higher but so is maneuverability. But if you would see the other site (once it is back online) you would notice that many of the american casualties could have been prevented if not a HMMWV would have sheltered the soldiers.

[DarkLight 0]

Have you seen that hmmwv for civilians already?

Man that thing looks crap, can't believe someone actually wants to drive with that...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But that is the civillian version. The military vehicule has armour indeed, but it is just not meant to see tough action or to face grenades, rpgs and roadside bombs. Not to speak about the wheels. Does the HMMWVV still carry ordinary wheels?

[hellfish6 7]

The humvee isn't a bad vehicle, but it's not optimal for the urban battlefield. This is why the Army is adopting the Stryker - it's arguably more useful in close city streets than either the humvee or Bradley (both of which are louder than the Stryker and while the Bradley has excellent armor and firepower, it wears out very fast and tends to be clumsy to maneuver).

[jakerod 254]

Quote[/b] ]I dont want to claim that Blackhawk down was a realistic movie, but didnt you have the impression that if the convoy would have moved in with the armoured vehicules of the pakistanis right at the beginning, then human losses could have been prevented.

American forces requested armor and AC-130 Gunship support but it was denied (or so I hear).

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The humvee isn't a bad vehicle, but it's not optimal for the urban battlefield. This is why the Army is adopting the Stryker - it's arguably more useful in close city streets than either the humvee or Bradley (both of which are louder than the Stryker and while the Bradley has excellent armor and firepower, it wears out very fast and tends to be clumsy to maneuver).

I totally agree. I dont claim that the HMMWV is "badly" engineered, but it has been produced in too high numbers. Standardisation is not always the best solution, a better differentiation of the vehicule-pool serving different purposes would have been benefitial. Watching the news makes me believe that the HMMWV is the basically the only "option" for the US forces to patrol the roads in armour.

It is a shame that an army that puts so much money into giving it soldiers the right equipment is not able to provide the most important component of real armour the right patrol-vehicule!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

There are so many potential substitutes out there.

Take the Fennek for example

110 km/h fast, 860 km range, what else do you want.

or the GTK

or even the stupid Dingo would do a better service

I dont want to show off with potential Bundeswehr equipment, but I guess there is a reason why even a underfunded army like the one of germany has basically 5 vehicules to choose from that could do the job.

[mr burns 131]

[conspiracytheory]maybe tba owns parts of the hmmwv producer..just a wild guess[/conspiracytheory]

i do agree that german armored vehicles even as small as the dingo could do a better job than the hmmwv´s.

[hellfish6 7]

I think the fundamental problem is that the US Army was (and in some regards still is) a warfighting organization, not a peacemaking/keeping organization. The Stryker brigades are beginning to fix this.

The US Marines, the Italians and the French have oriented to a low-intensity conflict kind of force structure. They are both still capable of fighting a real war, but they are equally capable in the kind of combat scenarios you'd find in Africa and other hotspots, where you won't encounter enemy tank battalions, but rather a handful of fanatics armed with RPGs and AKs. Exactly the kind of situation the US Army finds itself in now. Yeah, M-1 tanks are imposing as hell, but they're not the best solution for the infantry combat we're seeing now.

Humvees worked great in the Balkans, but we never really experienced anyone shooting us. The French did and they found the VAB and AMX-10RC to be the best vehicles available for dealing with the kinds of fights that you find in these low intensity fights. Same with their many interventions in Africa. The Army I think saw this and has spent the 10 years since developing the Strykers.

[hellfish6 7]

Also, do NOT discuss the video in question. Its a violation of forum rules. This is a warning.. I have eliminated all reference to it in the thread.

[denoir 0]

Near the top of that www-page (tracks not trucks...) there's a link call 30mm Chain Gun in Action which offers some graphic Apache gun camera attack footage.  Perhaps this has already been discussed, but I have some questions about what seems to be depicted:

It has been debated in the Iraq thread:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=437

There was a much longer debate before the reference above, but I can't manage to find it.

Anyway, HMMWV = car, not armored vehicle. Nothing wrong with it per se but it is being used in Iraq for a role it wasn't constructed for.

[red oct 2]

most of the HMMWV's that were sent in Iraq, had only basic armor and only had canvas over the doors and roof. had it been decided to send up armored versions of the HMMWV like the M1109/M1114 instead of all the M998's and M1025's, the casualty rate most likely wouldn't have been so high.

[bn880 5]

heh, how about this beauty?

http://www.jedsite.info/4x4afv....ro.html

[Bernadotte 0]

Near the top of that www-page (tracks not trucks...) there's a link call 30mm Chain Gun in Action which offers some graphic Apache gun camera attack footage.  Perhaps this has already been discussed, but I have some questions about what seems to be depicted:

It has been debated in the Iraq thread:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=437

There was a much longer debate before the reference above, but I can't manage to find it.

Thanks for the ref, Denoir.

I've just read it and feel quite disgusted by the wilful and blind stupidity.

I wonder what those poor souls will have to tell St Peter.  

(ok... that's all from me on this old topic)

[mr burns 131]

yes, thanks for the link denoir

quite interesting to read more opinions on this

also found an article on abc news.. but this is all OT

---

heh, how about this beauty?

http://www.jedsite.info/4x4afv....ro.html

http://www.jedsite.info/4x4afv....001.jpg

that doesn´t look very sophisticated.. more like an AK47 on wheels  

is it still in use ?

[bn880 5]

heh, how about this beauty?

http://www.jedsite.info/4x4afv....ro.html

http://www.jedsite.info/4x4afv....001.jpg

that doesn´t look very sophisticated.. more like an AK47 on wheels

is it still in use ?

What kind of criticism is that? For military ops not very sophisticated is the best compliment, the simpler to get the job done the better.

I think it is in use as it's pretty much a Soviet hummer. Maybe some Russian members can tell us.

[Bernadotte 0]

damn! That source was perfect. It is gonna be back up in an hour!

Still down.

Albert, I saved an off line copy.  (3.5MB)

I can email it to you if you have some webspace where you'd like to post it.

[Heatseeker 0]

I wonder why they have so many HMMWV's and variations, maybe theres other "interests" behind it, i dont think its a good vehical to patrol dangerous urban areas with, its a fine looking big jeep and thats it.

[EiZei 0]

its a fine looking big jeep and thats it.

Maybe bit too big, at least the ones that FDF trialed got stuck in the forests.

[hellfish6 7]

Photos

If the crew can survive this, I'd say the humvee is doing just fine.

[drewb99 0]

The Humvee just got some extra armor added on IIRC- it'l be fine for quite some time.