What is the stupid HMMWV for?

[pogingwapo 0]

"STUPID" HMMWV GETS NEW ARMOR

Quote[/b] ]Ohio Scientists Develop Armor for Humvees

Mon Oct 4, 8:55 AM ET   Science - AP

COLUMBUS, Ohio - The military is ordering more lightweight armor developed in Ohio that protects troops in Humvees from automatic weapons fire and grenades without slowing the vehicles.

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Unarmored Humvees have become targets in the war in Iraq (news - web sites). The vehicle was designed to carry troops and supplies, not be part of the fighting. Special-operations forces were looking for lighter armor that doesn't affect their speed or make Humvees too heavy to transport on planes.

Some Humvees, made by AM General in Mishawaka, Ind., are being equipped with up to 3,000 pounds of armor, which slows them down. The new armor offers less protection, but weighs 750 pounds.

The military has tested 75 of the armor kits in the Middle East and has ordered 400 more from Columbus-based Battelle, the world's largest independent, nonprofit research institute.

Battelle introduced the armor kits last week at the Naval Institute's ninth annual Warfare Exposition and Symposium in Virginia Beach, Va.

"The bad guys come up with newer tactics, and we come up with newer techniques," said Skip Dirren, who heads Battelle's Navy marketing operations.

With no time to invent armor, Battelle went to the marketplace and found that an armor made of polyethylene and titanium survived testing at its laboratory.

The armor is 15 times stronger than steel, according to John Bockbrader, project manager. His team of engineers adapted the armor to fit Humvee parts considered vulnerable, including doors, seats, wheel wells and the underbody.

The armor will not stop blasts from homemade bombs and rocket-propelled grenades that Iraqi insurgents have repeatedly used.

But the lighter armor will help, said 1st Lt. Tim Casteel, who returned to Ohio on Sept. 3 from a 15-month tour in Iraq.

During Casteel's last three months in Iraq, his Middletown-based unit, the 324th Military Police Company, escorted truck convoys, he said. His group rode in Humvees loaded with so much ceramic armor that the cargo trucks they escorted could accelerate faster in an attack, he said.

"When you're attacked, you have to have the ability to hit the gas pedal and go and not be stuck at 45 to 50 mph," Casteel said.

The government has paid Battelle $25 million to work on the armor during the past three years. Battelle is selling it to the Defense Department for $90,000 to $120,000 per kit.

Traditionally, 90 percent of Battelle's business is contract work for the federal government.

Its national defense business has increased from $40 million to $75 million since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorists attacks. The company's national security business, a $285 million operation in fiscal 2001, now is projected at $490 million in fiscal 2004.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

you should have posted that in the old thread. yes, you should have!

[Placebo 29]

He did you muppet

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

No, it wouldnt. It is clear that you need a FAST vehicule in case you have been ambushed and trapped in the middle of a tight street. Therefore it must be wheeled.

The Fennek certainly is not realy the right vehicule for Irak either. I only mentioned him here because I would love to have a silver civillian version of this one.

I mean we are talking about patrol vehicules that simply have a proper protection.

Okay, dont be astonished, this one may be ugly ...

but this "Mercedes Dingo 2" has a mine deflector & ballistic protection, an NBC-air-filter and weighs 11 tons. The defense system is navigated from inside.

DINGO 2 are equipped with a run flat-tire-system, ensuring mobility of grade of the protection when new vehicle even after hitting the tires. technologies are available. As an option, a multipurpose gun mount is available to accommodate MG 7,62, 12,7 oder GMW 40mm. Also largercalibergunscan be integrated in DINGO 2. Due to its flexible design the DINGO can also easily be used as carrier for other armaments: Air-Defense missiles, Anti-Tank missiles, multipurpose turrets etc.

Quote[/b] ]• outstanding level and overall-protection against:

- Anti-tank and AP mines,

- Direct firing all-around,

- Artillery fragments,

- NBC-agents, excellent tactical mobility by,

- high speed on roads,

- heavy-terrain mobility,

- long range, strategic mobility due to air-transportability in C 130 HERCULES and even in C 160 TRANSALL, significantly reduced LCC due to

- low procurement cost by use of COTS basic chassis,

- low operation cost,

- world-wide logistic service

[Balschoiw 0]

Yes that the ATF 3 Dingo2, the latest fashion in the Dingo series. It has an excellent mine deflector, and a separated security cell. Anyway it can´t eat RPG´s. But at least it can speed up to 120 km/h, wich is very good for such light armoured vehicle.

The interior weapon handler is excellent also. It´s like tank gunning.

Oh and it´s not ugly. In fact it looks very impressive IRL and that´s a psychological thing towards your enemy also. It´s simply very high and provides excellent overview and full ATV qualities. Once you patrol with it you will like ti very much because it provides excellent overview over the situation while lower vehicles like the HMMV can´t keep overview in a crowd without having exterior recon.

[Supah 0]

No, it wouldnt. It is clear that you need a FAST vehicule in case you have been ambushed and trapped in the middle of a tight street. Therefore it must be wheeled.

The Fennek certainly is not realy the right vehicule for Irak either. I only mentioned him here because I would love to have a silver civillian version of this one.

I mean we are talking about patrol vehicules that simply have a proper protection.

Okay, dont be astonished, this one may be ugly ...

[ig]http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/pix/bw_atf_2_dingo_2-000.jpg[/img]

but this "Mercedes Dingo 2"  has a mine deflector & ballistic protection, an NBC-air-filter and weighs 11 tons. The defense system is navigated from inside.

[ig]http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/pix/bw_atf_2_dingo_2_wst-001.jpg[/img]

DINGO 2 are equipped with a run flat-tire-system, ensuring mobility of grade of the protection when new vehicle even after hitting the tires. technologies are available. As an option, a multipurpose gun mount is available to accommodate MG 7,62, 12,7 oder GMW 40mm. Also largercalibergunscan be integrated in DINGO 2. Due to its flexible design the DINGO can also easily be used as carrier for other armaments: Air-Defense missiles, Anti-Tank missiles, multipurpose turrets etc.

Quote[/b] ]• outstanding level and overall-protection against:

- Anti-tank and AP mines,

- Direct firing all-around,

- Artillery fragments,

- NBC-agents, excellent tactical mobility by,

- high speed on roads,

- heavy-terrain mobility,

- long range, strategic mobility due to air-transportability in C 130 HERCULES and even in C 160 TRANSALL, significantly reduced LCC due to

- low procurement cost by use of COTS basic chassis,

- low operation cost,

- world-wide logistic service

How many monthly payments and does it have cup holders?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But that is an image of a Dingo 1, isnt it? there is a big difference as far as the chassis is concerned

oh and supah...

No monthly payments but get it in 2004 and pay it January 2005. It comes with a free family ticket for Disney-land Paris

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]But that is an image of a Dingo 1, isnt it?

Yes those ATF2´s are the ones mainly used today.

There are not that much of the new ATF 3 Dingo 2 in service already.

The Bundeswehr is getting a mixed setup of armoured vehicles. Overall 3800 new vehicles of the following types:

GTK Boxer:

Mungo:

Duro:

Dingo 2:

and the Multirole weapon carrier Wiesel 2:

For this setup Struck cancelled 10.000 unarmoured vehicels.

A good decision imo. Noone needs unarmoured light vehicles these days.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Did you ever sit in a Dingo? Are they commonly used? Do you feel secure inside them? is the gunner able to well ovierview the environment through this scope?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Did you ever sit in a Dingo? Are they commonly used? Do you feel secure inside them? is the gunner able to well ovierview the environment through this scope?

Yes (not only sit) , yes, yes, and if equipped with new ATF 3 interior controls, yes.

The lafette of the Dingo 2 series is only limited controlable from within the vehicle, but it works.

I hope though that all Dingos in service will get the ATF 3 upgrade for interior firing.

[aviel 0]

Nice post :D:D

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Learn to help yourself! Look what I found on SFTT.org

If someone has got a friend in Iraq right now, ask him to participate

[calm_terror 0]

the onyl country to actual learn form urabn and low intencity combat is israel and they have tailer made their apc's out of old tanks and slappign alot of armour on them.

they rarely use humves in urban areas and i don't think they ever use them in gaza unless excorted by armour.

all the euro apc and stuff are all built to look pretty since most euro countries never see combat. they are also made for open field combat or euro cities not middle eastern.

most all those apc and apc wanna bess ie wheel vechicals are way to tall big tall targets.

oh and when israel doe suse their uparmoured humves and land rovers they don't drive slow they speed through urban areas and if they get stuck in traffic they will oepn fire on the rock throwers (warning shots) then ram their way out.

Israel is the only country to know true ubran fightign and deal with terrorists everyday

only the US army is now realising this but will not learn.

the US never really learns anything for war..

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

the onyl country to actual learn form urabn and low intencity combat is israel and they have tailer made their apc's out of old tanks and slappign alot of armour on them.

they rarely use humves in urban areas and i don't think they ever use them in gaza unless excorted by armour.

all the euro apc and stuff are all built to look pretty since most euro countries never see combat. they are also made for open field combat or euro cities not middle eastern.

most all those apc and apc wanna bess ie wheel vechicals are way to tall big tall targets.

oh and when israel doe suse their uparmoured humves and land rovers they don't drive slow they speed through urban areas and if they get stuck in traffic they will oepn fire on the rock throwers (warning shots) then ram their way out.

Israel is the only country to know true ubran fightign and deal with terrorists everyday

only the US army is now realising this but will not learn.

the US never really learns anything for war..

Israels strategy is definetly not worth copying. Like that you will never turn Iraq into a democracy but create hate and poverty for decades!

[theavonlady 2]

the onyl country to actual learn form urabn and low intencity combat is israel and they have tailer made their apc's out of old tanks and slappign alot of armour on them.

they rarely use humves in urban areas and i don't think they ever use them in gaza unless excorted by armour.

all the euro apc and stuff are all built to look pretty since most euro countries never see combat. they are also made for open field combat or euro cities not middle eastern.

most all those apc and apc wanna bess ie wheel vechicals are way to tall big tall targets.

oh and when israel doe suse their uparmoured humves and land rovers they don't drive slow they speed through urban areas and if they get stuck in traffic they will oepn fire on the rock throwers (warning shots) then ram their way out.

Israel is the only country to know true ubran fightign and deal with terrorists everyday

only the US army is now realising this but will not learn.

the US never really learns anything for war..

Israels strategy is definetly not worth copying. Like that you will never turn Iraq into a democracy but create hate and poverty for decades!  

That's Palestinian and Arab League policy - not Israel's.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Let me rephrase it more diplomatically. I dont think palestine and Iraq are comparable. Not yet and hopefully not in the future.

If the americans would patrol iraq like the israelis patrol palestinian districts then no iraqi would soon sympathise with the americans anymore.

[Acecombat 0]

Its them

No

Its them

blah blah blah blah ...

If Israel knows how to control terrorists and terrorism then i know how to make OFP2 all by myself

[theavonlady 2]

Its them  

No

Its them  

blah blah blah blah ...

If Israel knows how to control terrorists and terrorism then i know how to make OFP2 all by myself    

Talking of blah-blah.......................

[Acecombat 0]

Its them  

No

Its them  

blah blah blah blah ...

If Israel knows how to control terrorists and terrorism then i know how to make OFP2 all by myself    

Talking of blah-blah.......................

Thanks for saying that blah blah thing avon now the world of forums are safe and PC'ed and equal not mention the point i was making is now proven via blah blah

[skynet 0]

blah blah blah...

send in the aircav, apaches, m1a1s and the whole works...problem solved.

[theavonlady 2]

blah blah blah...

send in the aircav, apaches, m1a1s and the whole works...problem solved.    

We don't have any M1A1s but that helps. Just to present some elementary statistics:

Quote[/b] ]The first two years of the conflict claimed many victims: in 2001 207 Israelis were killed, and in 2002 the number of fatalities rose to 452! This year also saw the largest number of people injured since the start of the conflict – 2,309 casualties.

On the eve of Passover, April 2002, an attack was carried out at the Park Hotel in Netanya resulting in 28 fatalities and another 65 people wounded. In the wake of this attack, carried out at the initiative of the Hamas organization in Samaria, Israel embarked on "Operation Defensive Shield", focusing on the terrorist infrastructures in Samaria. Thanks to this campaign and the operations that followed, the infrastructures of terrorism were damaged, especially in Samaria. At the same time there was a sharp decrease in the number of suicide attacks carried out by the terrorist organizations: in 2002 there were 60 suicide attacks, while in 2003 this number decreased by more than 50% to 26 suicide attacks. There was also a considerable decrease in the number of fatalities: from 452 killed in 2002 to 214 killed in 2003. In 2004 this number decreased further and up to September 97 people have been killed.

Another decisive factor in the decrease in the number of casualties and fatalities is the completion of the first section of the security fence, from Salem to Elkana, in August 2003. In the 34 months between the beginning of the conflict and construction of the security fence, the terrorist organizations in Samaria have carried out 73 mass murder attacks (suicide attacks or car bombs) within Israel, in which 293 Israelis were killed. In the year since August 2003 the terrorist organizations have only succeeded in carrying out 6 mass murder attacks, killing 30 Israeli citizens. This represents a decrease of 84% in the number of people killed compared with the period between September 2001 and July 2002.

(Source: Fours Years Of Conflict - Israel Ministry Of Foreign Affairs)

So Israel must be doing something right, though not enough IMO.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We should discuss that issue in the middle East conflict thread only .  

[ran 0]

Yeah, as it was a topic about the military use of the HMMWV in urban theater of operations

[calm_terror 0]

er um what did I say aboot policy?

there is a difference Israel has rights to be where they are and settle it. the US just wants oil.

I was making the point israel puts the soldier's safety and lifes first and if you want to get into the hearts and minds crap that is BS you can never do that.

if you wanted to do that you would have left eh Ba'athist in place and kept the fear and oppression in place but that is not my point.

my point was israel uses the best APC and armour and for the most part on the cheap.

and actual learns from combat and tries to avoid past mistakes.

the US learns very little aboot combat and always goes with the bottom line IE how is this good for the generals and the contractors..

my point aboot driving around very fast and or excorted by armour and opening open on rock throwers is that in war zone you can't do that let's drive slow show our face and hope these people love us. that NEVER works.. the only place it semi worked and only because there was a real win over the people was in the Balkans and that is only because of the huge multi-national force the UN and NATO units. and the fact it was in europe..

the middle east is way different it is ruled in 2 ways Imam's or complete oppressive fear. some times both.

but the point is completely missed by you is that Israel uses the combat tested apc's and armour..

israel has years and years of urban combat exerpance more then any other nation on earth. so when you are fightign urabn combat and terrorists israeli's techs and tatics do work.

the miltiary ones not the goverment policies don't bring the european anti-semtic crap aboot israel's goverment policies i am talking the tatics and equment used by the military..

[theavonlady 2]

Yeah, as it was a topic about the military use of the HMMWV in urban theater of operations

Oh yeh - I forgot.

Anyway, true, I've never seen a Hummer in urban use anywhere in Gaza, though they are there in use in more open terrain.

What's interesting is they're never seen in use in urban in Judea and Samaria either, though the IDF often uses armored Sufas in urban areas there.

We mostly see armored Hummers patrolling in much more open areas, especially on the northern border with Lebanon.