The Iraq thread 4

[herman01 0]

Hes already replaced. The only thing significant about his death is the PR around it in America. I'm glad hes dead though, but one shouldnt exagerate the importance of his death there will always be someone there to take that someones place in that type of organization designed for such losses.

I think the comment of trusting his fellow muslims isnt a fair one. Its a very black in white perspective of the muslim world. A good majority of the Sunni Insurgent groups would probably kill him if given the chance.

[Friedchiken 0]

Hes already replaced. The only thing significant about his death is the PR around it in America. I'm glad hes dead though, but there will always be someone there to take that persons place.

I think the comment of trusting his fellow muslims isnt a fair one. Its a very black in white perspective of the muslim world. A good majority of the Sunni Insurgent groups would probably kill him if given the chance.

Very true that this incident might not change anything. But at least it shows you that Coalition troops are doing a good job at keeping up the pressure.

Quote[/b] ]What about fighting the most powerful conventional military force in the world?

Very good observation, didn't think of that.

But I would say that since these terrorists desire death more than life, I say the choice to fight the most powerful conventional military force in the world is a very foolish decision. Guts doesn't figure in at all for terrorists. Only gullibility and dogmatism. Or desperation if you look at it another way.

And all these Iraqi suicided-bombing deaths are only increasing the anger and fear towards extremist muslims.

[Thunderbird 0]

Excluding the 2 civilian casualties (the child and the woman), these are very good news, so many people killed because of the madness of a bunch of murders...

I hope this would make things better in Iraq.

Regards

Thunderbird84

[mp_phonix 0]

Thats good news

one less terrorist

[Nemesis6 0]

But I would say that since these terrorists desire death more than life, I say the choice to fight the most powerful conventional military force in the world is a very foolish decision.

Quite the contrary. If you want to meet Allah, face the U.S. military.

[Garcia 0]

I was really hoping he would be shown the same mercy his victims had recieved rather than the having a bomb fall on him.

You mean like being dragged out of the ambulance and killed by US coalition forces while not being able to defend himself because of the wounds the bomb caused? Then it seems he got that kind of death. At least the latest reports states that some Iraqi guy saw US forces doing just that...

[xawery 0]

Yep, seems like it... While kicking a wounded man to death may seem despicable, who can blame them? Al-Zarqawi has consistently been portrayed as the epitome of evil, so it wouldn't surprise me if the soldiers really reacted that way.

I can imagine that this incident won't do the US army's image any good, but isn't dropping a bomb on someone also an act of violence the target can't defend himself against?

[Garcia 0]

It's a big difference. Shooting a tank with hellfire ain't the same as kicking a wounded man. The tank is defenceless against the chopper (there's probably some other stuff there to take out the chopper, but the tank itself is most likely defenceless (aka not a threat to the chopper)), but it's still not as cowardly and bad as kicking a wounded defenceless man to death, it's more like a tactical move to defend other forces against the tank.

Besides, before they dropped the bomb he could run away, they didn't have him under "control", but after he was hit, I would think they had quite a bit control.

[xawery 0]

You may accuse me of arguing for the sake of arguing. I see the difference between the two examples I gave, but whether this difference is significant depends on what kind of moral framework you choose to employ.

If you view the situation from a deontological point of view (especially in Kant's interpretation), the soldiers' actions are cleary wrong. I doubt anyone would have wanted to see their behaviour instituted as a universal law. However, if you choose the pragmatic view (i.e. Dewey/James), you will say that the soldiers' actions were no more wrong than the initial bombing. Both resulted, or were supposed to result in Al-Zarqawi's demise. You don't drop a bomb on someone because you want to take him alive.

Of course, one could say that if the soldiers had not kicked him to death, perhaps he could have been reanimated and later 'questioned', possibly revealing vital information. However, this is a practical consideration, not a moral one.

[red oct 2]

I was really hoping he would be shown the same mercy his victims had recieved rather than the having a bomb fall on him.

You mean like being dragged out of the ambulance and killed by US coalition forces while not being able to defend himself because of the wounds the bomb caused? Then it seems he got that kind of death. At least the latest reports states that  some Iraqi guy saw US forces doing just that...

oh you mean kinda like how he decapitated bound men who where unable to defend themselves just the same? and by no means where these victims soldiers, one was a technician repairing broken radio antenna's and the Korean if im not mistaken was just a tourist and your complaining about how this poor helpless wounded man was dragged out of his ambulance? sorry but im not going to be cuing any violin music for him.

[Garcia 0]

I was really hoping he would be shown the same mercy his victims had recieved rather than the having a bomb fall on him.

You mean like being dragged out of the ambulance and killed by US coalition forces while not being able to defend himself because of the wounds the bomb caused? Then it seems he got that kind of death. At least the latest reports states that  some Iraqi guy saw US forces doing just that...

oh you mean kinda like how he decapitated bound men who where unable to defend themselves just the same? and by no means where these victims soldiers, one was a technician repairing broken radio antenna's and the Korean if im not mistaken was just a tourist and your complaining about how this poor helpless wounded man was dragged out of his ambulance? sorry but im not going to be cuing any violin music for him.

Yes, he wasn't a nice man, I'm quite sure of that. The point is, that US so often claim to be justice itself (no, not the all american claims it, but too many), and then they go do stuff like this. Too many americans claim US to be everything that is good. They claim to be just and bla bla bla, but in reality the US army obviously don't got quite a lot of people that I'll place in the same category as this guy and Hussein (that is, not every single person in the US army, but every single person that kills a wounded man, torture prisoners who is held captive without trial and often based on bullshit and every single person who's tortured prisoners of war etc.)

In the end, these guys are as big assholes as Zarqawi himself.

Quote[/b] ]You may accuse me of arguing for the sake of arguing. I see the difference between the two examples I gave, but whether this difference is significant depends on what kind of moral framework you choose to employ.

If you view the situation from a deontological point of view (especially in Kant's interpretation), the soldiers' actions are cleary wrong. I doubt anyone would have wanted to see their behaviour instituted as a universal law. However, if you choose the pragmatic view (i.e. Dewey/James), you will say that the soldiers' actions were no more wrong than the initial bombing. Both resulted, or were supposed to result in Al-Zarqawi's demise. You don't drop a bomb on someone because you want to take him alive.

Of course, one could say that if the soldiers had not kicked him to death, perhaps he could have been reanimated and later 'questioned', possibly revealing vital information. However, this is a practical consideration, not a moral one.

Yes, in theory is killing...killing. If you look at the action and the basic intetion of the action (basic as in only if the intetion is to kill or wound the target, not why they possibly want to kill/wound the target), then shooting a man who is about to shoot your mom is as bad as if the man shot your mom. But, you do really have to look at the cirumstances, the whole intetion (the guy shoots your mom because he's an ass, you shoot the guy because he is about/just has shot your mom...IMO the last one is justified (but not by law, if the guy has already shot your mom)). And yes, I think you're arguing just to argue, cause I do think you understand and agree in my point What you say is true if you look at the situation without feelings (partly at least) and giving a shit in the cirumstances, what I say is true if you look at the situation and the cirumstances etc...

god damn now I'm tired of writing bullshit...should go to bed since I got oral exam some time in the next 4 days

[xawery 0]

Pragmatism is not some mechanistic way of looking at life in terms of "one less". It certainly does take circumstances into account. In your example, the situation clearly isn't the same, because a) two different people die, and b) either a felon or an innocent person dies. In the Al-Zarqawi incident things are different. I am not trying to absolve the soldiers, but being outraged at Al-Z being kicked to death seems rather ironic to me, in the light of the common agreement that dropping a bomb on his noggin is a-ok.

But yes, I am arguing just for the sake of it What you say is certainly true. For a state that sees itself as the epitome of freedom, justice, democracy, sugar, spice and everything nice, it certainly has a funky way of dealing with its (would be) prisoners, and even the people they supposedly came to liberate. Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Haditha and now this are prime examples of the differences between theory and practice.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]but being outraged at Al-Z being kicked to death seems rather ironic to me, in the light of the common agreement that dropping a bomb on his noggin is a-ok.

I don't really care if the guy was kicked to death or not, he clearly was an asshole that deserved to die The point in the start was just to point out that the US Army seems to have fucked up again by doing something stupid (I'm sure this is against something in the genevaconvention or something ) and that USA isn't what so many think, the greatest thing in the world, with total freedom, no assholes, sent by God himself to defend freedom and justice (actually, Colin Powell do think USA was sent by God to defend justice and freedom...nice going God ).

[FatNinjaKid 0]

I don't know if anyone has already brought this up, but isn't it strange that you never get to see pictures of people killed by the insurgence? Every single day we get the body count of how many civilians got shot, decapitated or blown to bits, but there are never any pictures.

What would people think about what the US is doing in Iraq, if they were confronted with the atrocities committed daily by insurgence? I guess some would get the idea that somebody ought to do something and put an end to it.

[EiZei 0]

What would people think about what the US is doing in Iraq, if they were confronted with the atrocities committed daily by insurgence? I guess some would get the idea that somebody ought to do something and put an end to it.

What? We get to read daily about insurgents suicide bombing civilians and footage is shown quite often of people running scared shitless and pillars of smoke.

[FatNinjaKid 0]

Yeah, but do you get to see pictures of dead Iraqis?

Here in Germany at least you could see pictures of the Iraqi civilians which were lined up against a wall and then executed by those Marines. But I cannot remember ever having seen pictures of Iraqis murdered by other Iraqis in similar fashion, although I am sure that must have happened like a hundred times.

Every night on the news we get to hear about how many Iraqis were killed. We get to see some vague pictures with smoke columns and general chaos, giving you the impression that Iraq is collapsing into total disorder. But we never get to hear or see anything about the victims. They have no names, no faces, no history and no feelings. Why is that? Normally our bleeding-heart sensationalist television would not miss out on such a chance to capitalize on other people's suffering. So obviously (to me) they are pushing a political agenda.

If we really got to see bleeding bodies and parents crying over their murdered children, as we did during the war in Bosnia, well, then I am sure people would feel a whole lot different about the US occupying Iraq.

[quicksand 0]

Show Iraqis killed by Iraqi insurgents?But then it would be ok to show Iraqis killed by US forces and US forces killed by Iraqi insurgents.

And that goes basicly against all broadcasting rules of western media that clearly state:It`s ok to show the bloody cadavre of a person only if the person in question is a wanted terrorist and his death represents a victory for Multinational Forces

[Makivelli 0]

A political discussion on this scale is beyond me, but I would recommend all of you watch this because it might change few peoples views on the whole situation. It certainly changed mine.

[EiZei 0]

Here in Germany at least you could see pictures of the Iraqi civilians which were lined up against a wall and then executed by those Marines. But I cannot remember ever having seen pictures of Iraqis murdered by other Iraqis in similar fashion, although I am sure that must have happened like a hundred times.

Every night on the news we get to hear about how many Iraqis were killed. We get to see some vague pictures with smoke columns and general chaos, giving you the impression that Iraq is collapsing into total disorder. But we never get to hear or see anything about the victims. They have no names, no faces, no history and no feelings. Why is that? Normally our bleeding-heart sensationalist television would not miss out on such a chance to capitalize on other people's suffering. So obviously (to me) they are pushing a political agenda.

If we really got to see bleeding bodies and parents crying over their murdered children, as we did during the war in Bosnia, well, then I am sure people would feel a whole lot different about the US occupying Iraq.

I have watched quite a few bits about those massacres and I have yet to see any iraqi bodies. I don't know about the german media though.

Anyways, I think Denoir's "cops and robbers" comparison fits here well, people find police brutality and corruption much more interesting/shocking than say what your average hoodlum would do.

[Garcia 0]

Anyways, I think Denoir's "cops and robbers" comparison fits here well, people find police brutality and corruption much more interesting/shocking than say what your average hoodlum would do.

Indeed. It's because the police is supposed to do exactly the opposite of police brutality etc. The police is supposed to protect, be just etc etc, not go kick the shit out of people, even though they may have commited a crime. In the same way it's more shocking seeing US forces doing bad stuff, because USA claim to be, and I quote Xawery:

Quote[/b] ]the epitome of freedom, justice, democracy, sugar, spice and everything nice

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

http://www.cair.com/video/marine-hadji-girl.wmv

I dont blame this guy for the lyrics he wrote. But it clearly shows that many of the soldiers, if not all, have lost sensitivity for their task, the country they are in, and who they are culturally interacting with.

Usually I dont like to compare Iraq with Vietnam. People who belief that history can repeat itself just have no eye for the detail. But as in Vietnam, the soldiers start to see the devil in everyone. Instead of every small yellow person with small eyes being a potential VC it now could be that every dark arab looking person is a potential jihadist. They start to mistrust everyone they see on the streets and I even believe they somewhat lost sight of who they are defending. Most of these men need to be replaced, they need hollidays to get their head straight. It neither a weakness nor a brutal mind they have, its just stress management turning bad!

Quote[/b] ]he four-minute, 13-second video of Belile’s performance was initially posted to the Internet site YouTube. The song tells the story of a Marine in Iraq who falls in love with an Iraqi girl. The girl takes the Marine to her family’s house.

But the family shoots the girl and then points their “AKs†at the Marine. The Marine then grabs the Iraqi girl’s little sister and “put her in front of me.â€

“As the bullets begin to fly, the blood sprayed from between her eyes and then I laughed maniacally,†according to the song’s lyrics. “Then I hid behind the TV and I locked and loaded my M-16, I blew those little (expletive) to eternity.

[miles teg 1]

Perhaps the US nees to abandon the liberal hippy Geneva convention. Maybe the US needs to quit using this freedom and democracy bullshit and go back to good ol' Michiavillian concepts of might makes right and good ol' social darwanism. We do it anyways, just try to cover it up with hypocritical nonsence?

Perhaps we need to go back to drawing and quartering prisoners (cutting open their bellies and pulling out their intestines and cutting them up while they are still alive and concious in front of a crowd). Hang them by flagpoles by their own intestines. Display their heads mounted on tanks and humvees and unit flags. This is war not police work. If the insurgents want to fight savagely, they have yet to see what savage is.

Savage is arresting female members of a insurgent family, raping, torturing and mutilating the female members, video taping it, and sending the video and pieces of their bodies back to the rest of the family.

Savage is using chemical weapons to wipe out entire towns until they get the point.

Savage is killing the enemies childrens with bayonets and bashing in babies skulls.

These idiot insurgents have never seen truly savage if the beast within each soldier was truly unleashed.

Death is one thing. But there are many ways of dying and being killed...some MUCH worse then others.

I should say however that I do not advocate such means. I am simply playing the devil's advocate in order to demonstrate that these criticisms of US soldiers, while valid, should not be overexaggerated especially when compared to the horrific savagery that is committed by these insurgents which goes against their own religion. I am honestly surprised that there has not been many more such incidents as we saw in Haditha. War is brutal ugly business. Good leadership and good discipline helps prevent alot of attrocities, but it does not eliminate it.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[theavonlady 2]

Albert and Miles, I'm just curious how you came to your posted conclusions, based on these lyrics:

Quote[/b] ]Hadji Girl

I was out in the sands of Iraq

And we were under attack

And I, well, I didn't know where to go.

And the first think I could see was

Everybody's favorite Burger King

So I threw open the door and I hit the floor.

Then suddenly to my surprise

I looked up and I saw her eyes

And I knew it was love at first sight.

And she said

Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad

Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah

Hadji girl I can't understand what you're saying.

And she said

Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad

Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah

Hadji girl I love you anyway.

Then she said that she wanted me to see.

She wanted me to meet her family

But I, well, I couldn't figure out how to say no.

Cause I don't speak Arabic.

So, she took me down an old dirt trail.

And she pulled up to a side shanty

And she threw open the door and I hit the floor.

Cause her brother and her father shouted

Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad

Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah

They pulled out their AKs so I could see

And they said

Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad

Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah

So I grabbed her little sister and pulled her in front of me.

As the bullets began to fly

The blood sprayed from between her eyes

And then I laughed maniacally

Then I hid behind the TV

And I locked and loaded my M-16

And I blew those little f***ers to eternity.

And I said

Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad

Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah

They should have known they were f***ing with a Marine

[klavan 0]

Here in Italy this case got some attention from the media: they told about a song that would incite to kill iraqi womens!

After reading the lyrics I realized one more time how the media are corrupted, at least in my country, and how they focus only on sensationalism a news may generate.

The more the days passes the more I hate watching TV: they suck your brain out of your skull leaving you lobotomized and incapacitated to think with your own mind.

Klavan

[Friedchiken 0]

The only thing I can say is that I really don't know why people need to watch TV (especially the news) these days.

Oh, alright, World Cup Soccer is surprisingly fun to watch. Was never really a sports fan in the past but the news coverage for soccer is great.

And I suppose some people like to watch the Discovery Channel and shows like 24.