The Iraq thread 4

[chops 111]

Guys,

Why do the news stations always say how much americans die and they never say how much terroists or how many bombs we defused?

I take it you don't watch Al-Jezeera then? By "the news stations" I imagine you mean the US stations and I imagine you can see the answer to your quetion right there.

@Black Sphere

The leader of the 7/7 bombers made a video beforehand in which he says

Quote[/b] ] I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger.

Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.

From the horse/donkey's mouth.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Guys,

Why do the news stations always say how much americans die and they never say how much terroists or how many bombs we defused?

This is not a silly question at all.  Consider that the news stations DO get that kind of information from the DoD AFIS on a daily basis and more when specific attacks and operations take place.

(On a side note, if your a real junky you can get RSS feeds from AFIS on a whole lot of mostly boring reading.)

And yet very specific information is filtered down through the US news networks and news broadcasts to represent what is seen by Americans everyday.  

After the initial spirt of patriotism, coverage of the war has clearly not been supportive as of late.  It remains propaganda as always, and the message is quite clear.  

Im not sure what is so clear, and what your contention is Chops:

US news SUPPORTIVE, Al-Jezeera UNSUPPORTIVE

or

US news UNSUPPORTIVE, Al-Jezeera SUPPORTIVE

Chops, is it your contention that US news coverage of the war in Iraq is supportive of the war, and the Bush administration?  If so, what channel are you watching?  If thats what you mean then surely Al-Jezeera doesn't look at daily AFIS briefs to show its viewers their might be some progress by Coallition Forces.

("progress" loosely defined of course. )

Quote[/b] ]

  I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger.

  Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.

  Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.  

From the horse/donkey's mouth.

Hmmm.  Interesting how Muslims keep moving to these evil western countries to relish in their oppression that MUST be so much worse then what they left behind.  Maybe they should just forsake all of their "tangible commodities" and not move to western countries in the first place...wouldn't that truly show "obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger."

Lighting your self on fire and crashing into a building with saftey constructed propane tanks...and failing by living through the ordeal...  Truly the sign of a "enlightened" and sane individual.

[sputnik monroe 102]

I almost was going to add my two cents to this. But it's hopeless what difference can one man's observation make?

I just wish there was a way I could build a rocket ship and fly to another far away world and just let all you crazies kill each other to your hearts content and leave me out of it.

[chops 111]

Mr contention is that US media report on US deaths.:whi:

I'm making an assumption, but I don't think they're be many people in the US who could tell me the number of UK, Italian, Polish, Danish or Australian troops killed.

AFAIK the number of Iraqi civilians killed is not recorded by the Coalition, let alone any media entities. It's left to NGOs.

[jtec 0]

@ Black sphere

I know for a fact that the war motivated people to blow themselfs and the UK public up!

Its like me going round some other persons house, whacking them in the face and not expecting anything in return. Also consider your country being blown to bits by another invading country. You family members or friends are either hurt or killed. Would you not pick up weapons and prepare to goto war with the invading forces that had input into the deaths???

[Black Sphere 0]

I know for a fact that the war motivated people to blow themselfs and the UK public up!

How do you know that, and even for a fact, are you with them? Or are you some psychic and you can read their minds? Assumptions are not facts, and if you can't see from their statement which Chops has provided how 'much' they have to do with Iraq, then I can't help you mate; there's not one mention of Iraq in that statement (it's "all over the world" and the message is not we're Iraqi's, but we're muslims), the statement is generalised on 'we against them'. Who we? Who them? Go figure ...

You know about them what you know, and I know about them what I know. I know they're nothing but a religious fanatics and fundamentalists which have NOTHING to do with Iraq, this is just their excuse (you're saying motivation), if would not be Iraq it would be then Afghanistan or it would be Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Sudan or Western Bank or Gaza or Izrael or Great Satan (USA) or Spiderman or Donald Duck ...

Quote[/b] ]Also consider your country being blown to bits by another invading country.  You family members or friends are either hurt or killed.  Would you not pick up weapons and prepare to goto war with the invading forces that had input into the deaths???

Of course I would pick up a weapon and defend my country, but you see, defending your country, your doorstep, is something totally different from those terrorist attacks, I would not 'defend' my country in London or in New York, killing an innocent people, I would be then worse as they, I would be then the lowest criminal - a terrorist. And I'm repeating again, THOSE WERE NOT IRAQI'S, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ.

[Second 0]

Of course I would pick up a weapon and defend my country, but you see, defending your country, your doorstep, is something totally different from those terrorist attacks, I would not 'defend' my country in London or in New York, killing an innocent people, I would be then worse as they, I would be then the lowest criminal - a terrorist. And I'm repeating again, THOSE WERE NOT IRAQI'S, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ.

Signed. This was writen so clearly that i care to comment this thread for once.

[jtec 0]

All im saying is that if the war on Iraq hadnt taken place, the UK along with other countries would not have been targetted by the Muslim terrorists. You seem hell bent on thinking Muslims are only attacking us because they want us to be muslims. That is not the case! I agree with some being total nutters but you get fanatics in most religions!

Im not of any religion by the way. I feel this world would be a better place without it, but thats another topic eh?

[martinovic 0]

Quote[/b] ]How do you know that, and even for a fact, are you with them?

It's very well documented by intelligence agencies all over the world that the invasion of Iraq (smack in the middle-east might i add) has sparked a giant wave of anti-american sentiment in almost every muslim country. CIA reports stated that Iraq has become the very center of Mujahideen propaganda.

Think about it, it's right there in the middle-east and US soldiers are packed with crosses and are setting up crosses all over the place. Not hard to make it look like a crusade.

If you americans really cared about the Iraqi people beyond propaganda garbage you would restore running water and electricity to them (which they had under Saddam). But no, most of Iraq is without either of those two, thanks to american soldiers.

The iraqis didn't begin this insurgency right after the invasion, they began it after the US Army neglected the restoration of the country in an almost criminal manner. You were greeted as liberators and you blew it.

To top it off you guys are now idiotically starting to supply the sunnis.

You had no idea what you got into and gave the shiites complete control, essentially allowing them to wipe out the sunnis. Now you are doing the opposite, allowing sunnis to kill shias. I can't stress how stupid that is.

Problem with that is that the shias are stronger and you guys are in for far worse then what you have now if the shias start feeling threatened by you. They already hate you for what you did to them in the Gulf War...

I suspect the number of EFPs hitting US trooops will sharply rise, as pissed off shiites will target US troops. They are the ones with iranian backing and much better equipment than the sunnis, i fear.

edit: Also, you morons raided Sadr City. Good thing you had the sense to only attack Sadr's breakaway factions and not the main beehive, but still, now you guys are in deep shit.

[chops 111]

@Black Sphere.

You seem perplexed by the fact that muslims would see fit to defend each other. How they go about it (bombing London) indeed makes no sense and is a criminal act of the same proportions as that which they decry.

What perplexes me, is why the US and it's posse of brown-noses attacked Iraq in the first place.

Saudis, Yemenis, Egyptians were responsible for 9/11, so.... let's attack Iraq and call it "The War on Terror". This kind of perverse, twisted logic is the same kind of demented bloodlust that infected the minds of the 9/11 highjackers and the 7/7 bombers.

The 7/7 bombers were motivated by the attack on Iraq, but don't take my word for it...

Quote[/b] ]On the eve of the first anniversary of the attacks (6 July 2006), Al Jazeera aired another taped message from one of the bombers - Shehzad Tanweer. He said:

For the non-Muslims in Britain, you may wonder what you have done to deserve this. You are those who have voted in your government who in turn have and still continue to this day continue to oppress our mothers and children, brothers and sisters from the east to the west in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya. Your government has openly supported the genocide of more than 150,000 innocent Muslims in Fallujah.

From Wikipedia

It's the madmen that always drag the rest of us into their mad, mad world. I might have to ask Sputnik Munroe for the blue prints to his rocket.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]If you americans really cared about the Iraqi people beyond propaganda garbage you would restore running water and electricity to them (which they had under Saddam). But no, most of Iraq is without either of those two, thanks to american soldiers.

Be careful how you use the word "you". It makes you fair game for it's use as well. You are a fool. Coalition forces have been restoring water and electricity. The insurgents you seem to be cutting excuses for don't care about restoring running water and electricity, they are more interested in killing their neighbors and Coalition troops just to appease their own selfish lust.

As for those who don't have water and electricity "thanks to US soldiers" as you put it fool, did you ever consider that any location where it isn't restored is likey thanks to the insurgents. It's hard to rebuild anything when you got insurgents running around.

 When ever I hear some one blather the old cliche "Things were better under Saddam." It makes me think of the old saying, "Mussolini made the trains run on time." Fuck Saddam and his supporters/appeasers.

I also tire of the other childish cliché, “If your country was invaded like that you’d take up arms against them.†No in that situation I would not. If Saddam was the dictator of my nation I would welcome the invasion that oust him. I would help in any way possible to have him killed and his followers destroyed. Unfortunately that is not how a lot of people in Iraq viewed the invasion. Sure they say aloud “Crusaders! Invaders! Great Satan! Oh my!†but deep down their whole motive is, “Good Saddam is gone, time for me to get my revenge on all the people I don’t like.†or “This is an excellent opportunity to help try and strong arm my extremist group into power.â€

 These insurgents are not freedom fighters. They are just a bunch of ass holes and shame on any of you who lap up their bullshit and/or idolize them. Let me put it this way, the insurgents are the equivalent of how the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nation, Black Panthers, Mafia and other extremist and criminal groups would react if the same situation occurred in the USA. They are not benign freedom fighters, they are just a bunch of thugs and wannabe tyrants trying to get a piece of the pie and assert their selfish will.

 They are part of the problem not the solution.

 The people I respect in Iraq are those who are trying to rebuild their nation, not the thugs fucking it up more by killing their neighbors, blowing up shit and killing people who are just trying to stabilize the fucking country so it can rebuild.  

 I swear by the logic some of you are showing, I’m almost certain you guys would have cheered on the Werewolves in Germany during 1946.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]As for those who don't have water and electricity "thanks to US soldiers" as you put it fool, did you ever consider that any location where it isn't restored is likey thanks to the insurgents. It's hard to rebuild anything when you got insurgents running around.

It´s hard to rebuild if you actually got no money to do it and no real plan to get it done.

Rebuilding Iraq, Report to congressional Committees

Get your facts straight.

Quote[/b] ]They are part of the problem not the solution.

That´s what iraquis majority of people think about the US troops.

Quote[/b] ]I swear by the logic some of you are showing, I’m almost certain you guys would have cheered on the Werewolves in Germany during 1946.

Uh, yes. Cliche man is among us.

[chops 111]

These insurgents are not freedom fighters. They are just a bunch of ass holes and shame on any of you who lap up their bullshit and/or idolize them.

Not tired of generalisations though?

The people fighting in Iraq are doing so for a variety of reasons. There is an enormous difference between the mass murdering criminals who detonate carbombs in markets and behead civilians and a rebel, in the true sense of the word, who shoots at a tank with an RPG.

Same as there's a difference between US soldiers who were just found guilty of raping and murdering a 14 year old girl (BBC) and those who are trying their hardest to genuinely help. I'm sure you agree the former is quite the arsehole too.

It's not quite as black and white as they're all arseholes and we're all nation-building champions of freedom.

To call others' logic into question after saying "they're (the insurgenst) all arseholes" well, just isn't logical. As for the werewolves..." I'm sure that you would've supported this completely different group had you been born eighty years ago, even though were talking about Iraq, now" is imaginative, it doesn't quite provide the highground from which to judge others' logic.

Regards

Chops

[martinovic 0]

Quote[/b] ]Be careful how you use the word "you". It makes you fair game for it's use as well. You are a fool. Coalition forces have been restoring water and electricity.

You are the ones in Iraq, there is no Coalition, you have no support. Even the brits are out, just in time too, cause the brits were sitting on a hive of Shias and now that you guys pissed those guys off, the brits would've drawn some heavy fire.

Quote[/b] ]As for those who don't have water and electricity "thanks to US soldiers" as you put it fool, did you ever consider that any location where it isn't restored is likey thanks to the insurgents. It's hard to rebuild anything when you got insurgents running around.

I don't care how much in denial you are, look it up, US troops are building giant luxurious compounds for corporate employees, not restoring running water. ~80% of Iraq has no water.

Seriously, do you even read reports about this war ever? There are quite a few lamenting the "ineffieciency" of the restoration efforts.

Quote[/b] ]When ever I hear some one blather the old cliche "Things were better under Saddam." It makes me think of the old saying, "Mussolini made the trains run on time." Fuck Saddam and his supporters/appeasers.

Yea, stop comparing Saddam to Mussolini and start comparing him to Winston Churchill. "I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes" - Churchill about the kurds.

You had practically speaking no justification for his removal.

Quote[/b] ]Sure they say aloud “Crusaders! Invaders! Great Satan! Oh my!†but deep down their whole motive is, “Good Saddam is gone, time for me to get my revenge on all the people I don’t like.†or “This is an excellent opportunity to help try and strong arm my extremist group into power.â€

How do you know that? CIA reports are stating the opposite. It's all about videos with dudes wearing crosses/devil horns (of all the stupid shit a tank driver can put on his helmet in Iraq it had to be devil horns...) prancing around Baghdads streets.

You know what? I think i'm going to stop now. As the old saying goes an argument over the internet goes only until some calls somebody else a nazi. Or something like that.

[Hoot1988 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote

Be careful how you use the word "you". It makes you fair game for it's use as well. You are a fool. Coalition forces have been restoring water and electricity.

You are the ones in Iraq, there is no Coalition, you have no support. Even the brits are out, just in time too, cause the brits were sitting on a hive of Shias and now that you guys pissed those guys off, the brits would've drawn some heavy fire.

what are you talking about the brits are out? how are we out when our boys are still there?

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]You are the ones in Iraq, there is no Coalition, you have no support.

 I guess the other troops I've seen under different flags then the US are just my imagination. Don't mistake not having "your" support with having no support at all. To be honest I don't think any one gives a crap as to wether they have Martinovic's support or not. I realize I'm just one man under the sky who's opinion means nothing, I get the feeling Martin that you haven't come to that realization about your self yet, methinks you suffer from the idealistic thoughts of a youth who doesn't realize his place in the world yet.  

 Yes Martinovic, it would be best if you just shut up while your behind, you are a fool. At least Balschoiw and Chops have some valid points even though I don't agree completely with them. You on the other hand are full of fecal matter.

 As long as you use comments such as "You are the ones in Iraq" or "You are in denial" then I'm going to turn the "you" back on you and apply the fool label.

If you notice when I say,

Quote[/b] ]These insurgents are not freedom fighters. They are just a bunch of ass holes and shame on any of you who lap up their bullshit and/or idolize them.

 If you notice I say "any of you who"  not the blanket statement of simply "you". As for the insurgents I will label them as they accomplish absolutely nothing worth while. Even the most die hard amongst the anti US camp have to admit at the end of the day that coalition forces have built schools and restored infrastructure, even if it's not enough to please them.

Quote[/b] ]I don't care how much in denial you are, look it up, US troops are building giant luxurious compounds for corporate employees, not restoring running water. ~80% of Iraq has no water.

 I sense this %80 number was pulled from a region below your belt line and I'm not talking about your pant pockets. The Kurds seem to be doing pretty good, but then again they don't seem to have as many in the gung ho Allah snack bar crowd. Oh well seems most people hates the Kurds any way so what does it matter.

Quote[/b] ]Yea, stop comparing Saddam to Mussolini and start comparing him to Winston Churchill. "I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes" - Churchill about the kurds.

You had practically speaking no justification for his removal.

 I rest my case even Churchill hates the Kurds.

 I have to say I have a very strong problem with people who says things were better under Saddam. If one were to say things are as bad now as under Saddam I'd grant a bit of consideration, but better under Saddam? Come on and get a grip. Any one who honestly wishes Saddam was still in power loses the right for all eternity (or at least until they grow up) to ever bitch about any other dictator, harsh leader or just bad times in general. I mean hell once you say "Oh living under Saddam isn't so bad" then you truly lose the privlede to bitch about human suffering anywhere else. You clearly are ok with it.

Quote[/b] ]You had practically speaking no justification for his removal.

 Actually it's really easy to justify, it only takes a flash of thought to come up with a number of reasons worth killing the man. Then again I'm not a king worshiper, I celebrate when world leaders die or are removed from power.

Quote[/b] ]How do you know that? CIA reports are stating the opposite. It's all about videos with dudes wearing crosses/devil horns (of all the stupid shit a tank driver can put on his helmet in Iraq it had to be devil horns...) prancing around Baghdads streets.

 Oh boo hoo. An idiot put horns on his helmet and some one had a cross!? That's a war crime if ever there was a war crime. That's the biggest problem I'm having with you at the moment Martin, a fool with a cross and devil horns is a bigger villian in your eyes than Saddam Hussein was. You need to seriously rethink your view of the world.

Balschoiw, my point about the Werewolves is that they were a bunch of thugs, they did not help in the rebuilding of Germany after the war. Can you honestly tell me the Insurgents in Iraq are helping to make things better? Sure you can argue until you are blue in the face that the Coalition troops are not helping and are the coming of satan him self, yet the fact remains they have at least done some good things and are trying even if it's only token in some peoples eyes.

 My second point about the werewolves is that a lot of people, not all, but a lot think the insurgents are cool. I mean they are so anti establishment and rebelious that is far out and cool man. The internet is full of of fan sites and youtube is brimming with fan videos. So it makes me wonder, I don't think any one would have supported the werewolves in post war Germany, yet what is the real difference between them and the insurgents in Iraq?

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]what is the real difference between them and the insurgents in Iraq?

The difference is that nazi germany was an invading, occupying force, thus the attack on nazi germany was justified.

The werewolfs were not a popular resistance, whilst the iraqi resistance is

Iraq on the other hand has not attacked united states, did not have weapons of mass destruction (the ones that Donald Rumsfeld sold him did no longer exist) Iraq was a sovereign country that got attacked without any proper reason, without any plans of future.

Was the french maquis in the second warld war unjustified in their actions? Were the killings of nazi collabarators justified?

[martinovic 0]

I tried being civil, but you're being a complete dick. So 'ere we go:

Quote[/b] ]I guess the other troops I've seen under different flags then the US are just my imagination.

Flags like Palau... Let us see, now that the brits are leaving is there anyone other than the USA with a troop presense larger than 100 men? Gotta be some medic detachment there with more men, right?

Quote[/b] ]I realize I'm just one man under the sky who's opinion means nothing, I get the feeling Martin that you haven't come to that realization about your self yet, methinks you suffer from the idealistic thoughts of a youth who doesn't realize his place in the world yet.

I am not here under the banner of the Grand Dukedom of Martinovic. I am telling you what's wrong in Iraq.

Noone supports you guys anymore, as only the british ever commited troops along your side and now they're out. Don't tell me that a few hundred troops from rag-tag countries hoping to get easier visa access are a supporting force. You're a one man Coaltion, even if it isn't techinically true. Placebo flags won't cut it.

Quote[/b] ]Yes Martinovic, it would be best if you just shut up while your behind, you are a fool. At least Balschoiw and Chops have some valid points even though I don't agree completely with them. You on the other hand are full of fecal matter.

What is this ad hominem bullshit? All you have to offer is insults. Try reading what i write for a change and not trying to evade what i say...

Quote[/b] ]If you notice I say "any of you who" not the blanket statement of simply "you". As for the insurgents I will label them as they accomplish absolutely nothing worth while. Even the most die hard amongst the anti US camp have to admit at the end of the day that coalition forces have built schools and restored infrastructure, even if it's not enough to please them.

If you build a bridge and suck a thousand cocks you are definately not a bridge builder. You guys are still in the red, water plants destroyed vs built is still in the minus.

BTW, who cares about pleasing me, am i the one trying to blow your ass up? You're not pleasing the Iraqi people, that's your problem.

You can call me names all day, but you are not helping the iraqis at the end of it. If you were they wouldn't wanna kill you.

It's very simple logic really, you are appeasing the iraqis as soon as they stop wanting to kill you. It's a simple way of measuring progress.

Quote[/b] ]I sense this %80 number was pulled from a region below your belt line and I'm not talking about your pant pockets.

Close but not quite. CNN or any other news channel. I will have to make corrections though: it's 80% in troubled regions of Iraq, not the whole of it, sry about that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories....3.shtml

Quote[/b] ] The Kurds seem to be doing pretty good, but then again they don't seem to have as many in the gung ho Allah snack bar crowd. Oh well seems most people hates the Kurds any way so what does it matter.

What the fuck does this sentence have to do with anything? Everyone hates the kurds, really? Just that fascist Churchill, yet you celebrate him while condemning Saddam for the same.

BTW, Salah Al-Din Ayyubi was a kurd, the kurds have serious street cred among muslims.

Plus they are pretty gungho, ask the secular turks about that. It's just that they aren't 60% of the population trying to wipe out the sunnis. They are not in the spotlight, that is all.

Quote[/b] ]I have to say I have a very strong problem with people who says things were better under Saddam. If one were to say things are as bad now as under Saddam I'd grant a bit of consideration, but better under Saddam? Come on and get a grip. Any one who honestly wishes Saddam was still in power loses the right for all eternity (or at least until they grow up) to ever bitch about any other dictator, harsh leader or just bad times in general. I mean hell once you say "Oh living under Saddam isn't so bad" then you truly lose the privlede to bitch about human suffering anywhere else. You clearly are ok with it.

People had running water, less death, electricity. By anyone's, other than some american lunatic's, standards that's a better situation.

Quote[/b] ]Actually it's really easy to justify, it only takes a flash of thought to come up with a number of reasons worth killing the man. Then again I'm not a king worshiper, I celebrate when world leaders die or are removed from power.

Now you baffled me.

Quote[/b] ]Oh boo hoo. An idiot put horns on his helmet and some one had a cross!? That's a war crime if ever there was a war crime. That's the biggest problem I'm having with you at the moment Martin, a fool with a cross and devil horns is a bigger villian in your eyes than Saddam Hussein was. You need to seriously rethink your view of the world.

Noone gives a shit if it's a war crime or not, you dense moron. It's not the Hague trying to blow you up.

What the 13 to 30 year olds all over the muslim world are seeing is a US soldier with horns on his head and crosses getting planted all over the middle of the muslim world. I was not talking about myself you incredible idiot.

How about you go to Islamabad and tell a few people on the streets the same thing: Booo hooo, he had horns on, so what? In the Muslim world noone gives a fuck about being a rebellious teen, they don't have the appreciation for shitty rock music that you americans do, so try thinking like them for a minute. Horns = devil = kill him! Easy, ok?

If you go to Baghdad you don't put horns on, you don't plant crosses, you try to avoid even the hint of a crusade or Satan.

Iraq has revitalized anti-american propaganda throughout the muslim world. Get this through your skull already. You can call me what you want, but that won't change.

I know you're gonna write me somekind of disturbed response, but don't bother responding to me. Let it rest, let it sink in and think about what i wrote to you here. Then come back and try disputing my claims which i will summerize just for you:

-Your supporters in Iraq are nigh on meaningless. You are on your own effectively.

-Your efforts at helping to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq that you destroyed in the first place are almost unnoticable.

-Less people died under Saddam and the ones that were alive lived better. (I know that this thing about "A world without Saddam is a better world." is the last bastion you war supporters have, but face it; not even that seems true.)

-The invasion of Iraq has sparked a wave of extremist support in the muslim world. Reinforced by easily avoided images of american soldiers acting stupid.

[Major Fubar 0]

Enough with the namecalling and personal attacks!

This is NOT acceptable, even in a heated debate.

We have this thread (and the whole Offtopic area) to let members of the community discuss and debate different topics, and to build a sense of community. Anyone who abuses that privelege can expect lengthy bans from this forum.

The bottom line is if you can't debate like civilised adults, DON'T POST HERE.

[0311 0]

The actual motives of this war was never to simply remove Saddam.

I mean, the stated reasons were as follows.

To create a friendly springboard country for better access to the rest of the Mid East. To culturally and socially rebuild the mid east starting with Iraq. And to establish a new oil trading partner there.

Today however we just want them to become self sufficient to maintain their own security so we can retrograde outta there.

The bottom line is at the end of the day the Iraqis need to do it themselves. We cannot stay forever to hold their hands. That comes straight from the will of the Iraqi people. It really is up to them to make it happen eventually.

[0311 0]

Oh yeah. I wanted to add another point.

Someone earlier mentioned the reasoning of the insurgents shooting at American troops stemming from idealogical hate.

This is how I classify the enemy in Iraq.

You got the professional terrorists. They are generally foreign, religously and idealogically motivated. These guys are ruthless. They're the ones willing to kill thousands of innocents to achieve their goals. These guys are fewer in number in Iraq and most Iraqis hate them.

Then you got local insurgents. It's these guys who are doing most of the killing of US forces either by using IEDs, VBIEDs, IRLs, suicide bombing, offensive infantry attacks using small arms, crew served weapons, RPGs etc. The biggest reason these guys have is financial. They and their families get paid considerably to attack us. In Ramadi, alot of the Iraqi police we worked with were former insurgents themselves.

You also got a small lot of mercs over there. These guys are highly skilled, often professionally trained in the military. Most are snipers, others work together in small fireteams doing calculated infantry attacks against us.

We've caught chechens, Russians, even Chinese mercinaries over there.

You also have the whole religious clan, sunni vs shiite thing over there. Often US troops are left out of that fight, but sometimes it does spill over with American blood. But thats more in Bhagdad and other parts than in our AO there.

[baddo 0]

To culturally and socially rebuild the mid east starting with Iraq.

I think one of the biggest problems, maybe even the biggest problem, of the Middle East is that some countries, which are from outside the Middle East, are trying to change the Middle East to their liking.

It isn't helping that the "bad things" which "need to be changed", might have been the "good things", which "has to be maintained", not long ago.

[sputnik monroe 102]

I stick by every thing I said about you Mr Martin. Any one who starts every other sentence with "you" or "your" and then complains when they are smacked back is, well, a fool.

Quote[/b] ]Don't tell me that a few hundred troops from rag-tag countries hoping to get easier visa access are a supporting force. You're a one man Coaltion, even if it isn't techinically true. Placebo flags won't cut it.

 Such arrogance. At least you’ve shown your true snobbery and how you look down on certain nations. You are all talk however, I bet if you met some one from one of those nations you would refrain from telling them to their face what you think of their "rag tag" country.

 Oh yeah and I'm not a one man coalition. Matter of fact I don't have any troops, I guess that would be cool if I did though.

Quote[/b] ]Flags like Palau

 Yeah those bastards  

Quote[/b] ]What the fuck does this sentence have to do with anything? Everyone hates the kurds, really? Just that fascist Churchill, yet you celebrate him while condemning Saddam for the same.

 Where did I celebrate Churchill? You sir are lying yet again. However I can turn your argument on you further and say you celebrate Saddam while codemning Churchill. And yes you do celebrate Saddam, half your arguments are based on "things were better under Saddam." what a hypocrite.

Quote[/b] ]People had running water, less death, electricity. By anyone's, other than some american lunatic's, standards that's a better situation.

 Ahh yes praise Saddam, he wasn't so bad. If he wasn't dead you'd make a good chairman for a re-elect Saddam campaign. I love your slogan "Running water, less death, electricity!"

Quote[/b] ]How about you go to Islamabad and tell a few people on the streets the same thing: Booo hooo, he had horns on, so what? In the Muslim world noone gives a fuck about being a rebellious teen, they don't have the appreciation for shitty rock music that you americans do, so try thinking like them for a minute. Horns = devil = kill him! Easy, ok?

 I'd rather not think like them, the idea of killing some one because of something so trivial and retarded as devil horns is sickening. Your argument here is probably one of the most comical you've presented. You are saying some yanks who have an appreciation for shitty rock music are the ones who are screwed up not the ones who would rather be out killing people for having devil horns or a cross? Get real.

 Also your argument that Muslims don't give a shit about being rebellious is absurd. What the hell are all the Jihadist out killing and torturing people for doing then? That's not rebellious, it's good clean family fun?

Quote[/b] ]BTW, Salah Al-Din Ayyubi was a kurd, the kurds have serious street cred among muslims.

 

 Yeah they do. Ask any Arab on the street what they think about the creation of a Kurdish state.

Quote[/b] ]I know you're gonna write me somekind of disturbed response, but don't bother responding to me. Let it rest, let it sink in and think about what i wrote to you here. Then come back and try disputing my claims which i will summerize just for you:

 Don't worry this is my last response to you. I'm a bit of a masochist, you have to be to post in this thread, I just had to respond one more time.

 I'll respond to your last few points one by one.

Quote[/b] ]Your supporters in Iraq are nigh on meaningless. You are on your own effectively.

 Yes I understand your loathing for small nations, especially any that would ally them selves with the great satan.

Quote[/b] ]

-Your efforts at helping to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq that you destroyed in the first place are almost unnoticable.

 Actually they are noticable, but only if you don't close your eyes. Would be nice if they were more noticable but then again it is hard to reconsturct something for some one who refuses to allow reconstruction.

 Also I must correct you when you say "your" and "you". I've made no effort to help those losers. I also made no effort to destroy them either. I've never been there and currently don't plan on ever visiting that dump. All in all I've had no effect  either positive or negative on their lives at all.

Quote[/b] ]

-Less people died under Saddam and the ones that were alive lived better. (I know that this thing about "A world without Saddam is a better world." is the last bastion you war supporters have, but face it; not even that seems true.)

 Yes, yes poor Saddam. Did you vote for him by chance?

 Also It's worth mentioning, I'm not really so much of a war supporter. I would have ran things completely different.

Quote[/b] ]-The invasion of Iraq has sparked a wave of extremist support in the muslim world. Reinforced by easily avoided images of american soldiers acting stupid.

 The same could be said about actions by the muslim world. Here you go... "Terrorist attacks over the years have sparked a wave of extremist support in the west. Reinforced by easily avoided images of Jihadist Muhajadeen acting stupid."

 Just looking through the internet it's easy to find hundreds of sites and videos of Jihadist acting like dip shits. How ever there is no wave of any kind of support in the west. The west is it's own worst enemy and will lose any war with the muslim world it bothers to partake in. The west doesn't get outraged at anything but it's self.

 Any how I'm done. I don't know why I bother posting in this thread every couple of monthes. In the end it does not matter what I or any one here thinks. I could change all your opinions or you could all change me, in the end it doesn't matter. Keep in mind all of us are just passing through this stupid little joke called life.

[Baff1 0]

Not everyone in Iraq hated Saddam.

Not every one in Iraq was repressed under him.

If you are just looking for an enemy to demonise to justify your war, he will do very nicely.

He can be made to fit that role with ease. But so can any leader.

Iraq needs a new Saddam.

Not some one who will rule the place "nicely".

But someone who is capable of ruling the place full stop.

Iraq was a nicer place under Saddam. It was stable. It was wealthy. It was religiously tolerant.

Now it is a war zone.

I'd have re-elected Saddam.

Except that we have destroyed all the infrastructure he had in place to regulate that immensely dangerous society.

And now there isn't any, so re-instating him won't fix anything.

We could of had an anti Iranian Saddam back, but now our best choice is a pro Iranian Sadr.

The damage done cannot be undone. Oh yes. And we murdered him in cold blood. I almost forgot.

So no more Saddam. That's not an option we have left ourselves.

Another bridge burnt.

For the record I agree with Churchill.

I feel forming an alliance with Kurds has been a tactical mistake.

It's alienated us from our much more important allies Turkey.

Kurdish goals are anti my personal intrests, their terrorist attacks in Turkey have cost me money. I love Turkish people. And they love us.

They are the muslims who have embraced American culture. Who do appreciate the same things as us. The ones that like us. The largest military contributors to NATO (fomerly).

Instead of them, I am stuck with the Kurds. Whoopee.

As for Churchill being a fascist, I think you will find he was personally quite instramental in removing that particular political movement from the face of the Earth.

I don't think Fascism has had many more notable enemies than Churchill.

At least that's how my British history books tell it.

Not only is it hard to reconstruct somewhere when the people who live there won't allow you to. (Because your reconstruction comes with attached political strings not freedom).

But they cannot reconstruct for themselves as long as you are there destroying all their home grown militia's and religious organisations. (Political infrastructure).

It's a catch twenty two situation.

The left winger public in domestic America is demanding the war to achieve impossible goals.

Bring peace and democracy and American style values to Iraq. A country with no history of peace or democracy. No love of America no sympathy for it's values. Hu-duh.

Stop the violence and get the troops out. Hu-duh.

But keep the troops in as long as there will be violence if they leave. Hu-duh.

When everyone knows there will be violence the instant they leave. A power vacuum that must be filled.

That the foreign troops presence alone is an instigator for violence.

That domestic Iraqi society cannot find it's own order as long as an artificial one is enforced on it.

That as soon as foreign troops withdraw, there will be a violent power struggle of the sort every country has when birthing a new form of government.

The coalition forces cannot win.

Their own populations will not allow them to.

They can't stay they can't go. They can't fix what they have broken, or even give it back to the people who built what they destroyed.

All they are doing is prolonging the agony.

Keeping the wounds open.

Delaying the inevitable until Bush has gone.

Your troops and mine are dying, not to save Iraqi's, but to save face. G.W.Bush and Tony Blairs face.

Blairs gone.

One more madman left.....and then there is a real chance of this being over.

I think this campaign has been such a massive cock-up that there is every chance we will be out of there completely.

That all that blood will have been spilt. All that money spent. All that goodwill burnt, and we won't even have an airbase or a port to show for it.

I'd be pleased if Bush and Blair ended up in the ICC. They've earnt it.

In war, losing is the biggest crime of all.

Quote[/b] ]You can call me names all day, but you are not helping the iraqis at the end of it. If you were they wouldn't wanna kill you.

It's very simple logic really, you are appeasing the iraqis as soon as they stop wanting to kill you. It's a simple way of measuring progress.

Can't wait for General Petrasus report. The one that says "We're winning".

"My strategy is working"

"I don't want to retire."

I anticipate high comedy.

Talking of comedy, here are some words of wisdom from Dick Cheney.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

All that goodwill burnt, and we won't even have an airbase or a port to show for it.

What about a 500 million dollar embassy and the super-airbase in the works (Bigger than Ramstein).

Look into it and adjust your viewpoint.  It should't chage your views on the war or the players...but will throw a curveball at your view of the near future of "Coallition" forces in Iraq.

PS ~Great find on that Cheney vid. VERY interesting that he used the term "quagmire." Of course the Saudis also told us an occupation of Iraq in '94 was not a good idea due to the fact it would enrage Muslims (not mentioned in list of reasons in the vid).