The Iraq thread 4

[Blake 0]

It's said that the pilot was National Guardsman with no prior training to recognize British vehicles which at that point formed 1/4 of the invasion force. I'd say this is almost criminal negligence in pre-war in pilot training. On the video pilot identifies orange marking on vehicles as 'Orange rockets on mobile launchers' or something. Maybe he saw elements of Dr.Evil's hideous WMDs being paraded to the front...

US Army/USAF lawyer etc. was also interviewed on BBC about on the video was classified for so long and the answer was something like 'it could give enemy valuable information, like in this case a very sophisticated ground attack aircraft utilizing special attack techniques...'

I mean come on, what is so secret in over 30-year-old A-10 ground-attack jet with only limited electronics and on the brink of being phased out of service? And the attack techniques in the video...just flying and strafing a column of vehicles, nothing new to Sturmovik pilots of WW2 era.

If incidents like these are not investigated properly I bet US will have trouble finding allies for the next war.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

yep, sad but true.  my frind joined the army recently, and there trained US veicle recognition as early as basic training.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

US Army/USAF lawyer etc. was also interviewed on BBC about on the video was classified for so long and the answer was something like 'it could give enemy valuable information, like in this case a very sophisticated ground attack aircraft utilizing special attack techniques...'

I mean come on, what is so secret in over 30-year-old A-10 ground-attack jet with only limited electronics and on the brink of being phased out of service? And the attack techniques in the video...just flying and strafing a column of vehicles, nothing new to Sturmovik pilots of WW2 era.

Actually you can decipher alot of information from the data displayed on guncam videos, thats why they blacked out the stuff on the apache vid with the marines.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

yes but the methods used by apaches are pretty new compared to strafing in tankbusters.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

yes but the methods used by apaches are pretty new compared to strafing in tankbusters.

I don't think you really get it though, yes straffing is not classified but the avionics and another info that is displayed might well be.

[Baff1 0]

Crucifying the pilot wont get the brit his life back. Besides, if this was anyones fuck up its the FAC who keeps telling the pilots there are no friendlies this far up north. Also the guy who made the decision these pilots (warthog pilot of all people) didnt need ground target recognition training might need a good going over. .

Friendly fire is a fact of war, crucifying the pilot won't bring the victim back to life, but it will encourage other pilots not to be so careless.

The problem is endemic not restricted to this one individual event.

The pilot, the FAC, the comms relay team, all need to be crucified.

[Baff1 0]

yes but the methods used by apaches are pretty new compared to strafing in tankbusters.

I don't think you really get it though, yes straffing is not classified but the avionics and another info that is displayed might well be.

Not to mention the popping of red smoke to ward off further attack etc, or the orange markers on the roof, or the amount of visual definition a pilot has, so that an enemy may work out how accurate his decoys need to be.

None of this has any relevance at all however since the video was asked for by Britain. The U.S. is bound to share 100% of it's intelligence with us by treaty, and as if breaking this treaty isn't enough, it is nothing short of disrespectful of ones allies. They are sharing in the risks. They clearly have nothing to gain from passing on U.S. secrets to the enemy either.

If it was an internal U.S. enquirey the video would have been released. But Oh no, British soldiers don't count. They don't take the same risks, fight in the same battles. Their parents don't vote in elections or get on CNN.

Frankly it's a big FU from America to Britain.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Hey i'm not defending the americans in anyway way when it comes to this incident, on various other boards i'm pretty scathing of them but i'm just pointing out a fact that gun cam data onscreen is pretty sensitive stuff, no reason it couldn't have been scrubbed, info on that screen can be very interesting to people who design sam system etc.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

yes but the methods used by apaches are pretty new compared to strafing in tankbusters.

I don't think you really get it though, yes straffing is not classified but the avionics and another info that is displayed might well be.

ahh yes see what you mean

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]We are not responsible for rifles, says Austria

Last Updated: 2:27am GMT 14/02/2007

Austria yesterday washed its hands of any responsibility after it was revealed that powerful sniper rifles it sold to Iran had been acquired by insurgents in Iraq.

The Daily Telegraph revealed yesterday that American troops had recovered more than 100 Steyr HS50 Mannlicher rifles, part of a consignment of 800 sold to Iran by Austria last year, during a series of raids in Iraq.

Astrid Harz, a spokesman for the Austrian foreign ministry, said yesterday that the sale had been "checked very thoroughly" and what happened to the rifles after they were delivered to Teheran ostensibly for use by border police was not the responsibility of her government. It was the responsibility of the Iranians, she said.

Franz Holzschuh, Steyr's chief executive, said the company had not been contacted by anyone officially to verify the serial numbers on the rifles. He said it was possibile that the weapons were copies.

The Austrian government concluded in 2004 that the.50 rifles, capable of piercing all types of body armour, would be used to fight drug smugglers. But American and British officials had warned that the weapons could fall into the hands of insurgents.

Source

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

There is still no definative proof that there coming from Iran. They have denied they even produce the munition they are being accused of giving to terrorist organisations.

[Ironsight 1]

There is still no definative proof that there coming from Iran. They have denied they even produce the munition they are being accused of giving to terrorist organisations.

No, but if it isn't Iran, who else could it be? I doubt the Austrians are supplying the insurgents themselves.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

capitalism is capitalism.  Even terrorism can be cashed in on.  Sure the arms company wont be selling them directly, but they probably know where there going to end up.  Personally i dont think Iran are that stupid, but i do think Bush is on another wich hunt for his next target.

[Ironsight 1]

capitalism is capitalism. Even terrorism can be cashed in on. Sure the arms company wont be selling them directly, but they probably know where there going to end up.

Off course it's stupid to supply arms to Iran. But I don't think any major arms supplier would ever sell arms, especially this type of weapon, to a terrorist customer. Don't forget that aiding terrorists can get you quite a few years into jail. Besides that it could lead to a boycot and noone would buy from you anymore.

Seems like a kick in your own balls to me. Especially because those rifles are only 10.000 each, which is pocket change for major arms suppliers.

[chris330 0]

So I see those guys from (I believe) the Lancashires have all been acquitted of murdering the iraqi civilian man.

Makes my blood boil. I suppose it wouldn't have anything to do with how piss-poor recruitment figures are at the moment would it now? Wouldn't want a scandal and all that now would we.

I suppose he must have beaten himself so badly he died as a result of his injuries. Naturally it's the obvious conclusion.

A decent iraqi man doing f/a wrong with a wife and two children. Beaten to death by army thugs. This country could have made itself look alot better by prosecuting them instead of trying to cover it up. Mind you when you've had that many scandals in your nation's military it must be quite a sensitive issue by the time it comes round to the 999th occurrence.

The sooner they're out of iraq the better, and I say that as much for the sake of the iraqi people as for the military personnel who don't want to be there.

As for the thugs, I hope they run into Al Qaeda personally.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

So I see those guys from (I believe) the Lancashires have all been acquitted of murdering the iraqi civilian man.

Makes my blood boil. I suppose it wouldn't have anything to do with how piss-poor recruitment figures are at the moment would it now? Wouldn't want a scandal and all that now would we.

I suppose he must have beaten himself so badly he died as a result of his injuries. Naturally it's the obvious conclusion.

A decent iraqi man doing f/a wrong with a wife and two children. Beaten to death by army thugs. This country could have made itself look alot better by prosecuting them instead of trying to cover it up. Mind you when you've had that many scandals in your nation's military it must be quite a sensitive issue by the time it comes round to the 999th occurrence.

The sooner they're out of iraq the better, and I say that as much for the sake of the iraqi people as for the military personnel who don't want to be there.

As for the thugs, I hope they run into Al Qaeda personally.

actually recrutment figures are not down, its a media myth.  But itleast in this case there was some sort of enquiry opposed to US incidents where up to 30 iraq's have been murdered.  also its not all 1 way,  like the 3 MP's who were attacked and beaten to death by a iraqi mob, none of which were brought to justice.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]We are not responsible for rifles, says Austria

Last Updated: 2:27am GMT 14/02/2007

Austria yesterday washed its hands of any responsibility after it was revealed that powerful sniper rifles it sold to Iran had been acquired by insurgents in Iraq.

The Daily Telegraph revealed yesterday that American troops had recovered more than 100 Steyr HS50 Mannlicher rifles, part of a consignment of 800 sold to Iran by Austria last year, during a series of raids in Iraq.

Astrid Harz, a spokesman for the Austrian foreign ministry, said yesterday that the sale had been "checked very thoroughly" and what happened to the rifles after they were delivered to Teheran ostensibly for use by border police was not the responsibility of her government. It was the responsibility of the Iranians, she said.

Franz Holzschuh, Steyr's chief executive, said the company had not been contacted by anyone officially to verify the serial numbers on the rifles. He said it was possibile that the weapons were copies.

The Austrian government concluded in 2004 that the.50 rifles, capable of piercing all types of body armour, would be used to fight drug smugglers. But American and British officials had warned that the weapons could fall into the hands of insurgents.

Source

The technology edge is starting to get eroded.

.50 cal rifles, Roadside bombs that zap tanks, 8 helicopters downed in the last 6 weeks, Apache's included.

High tech weapons are coming in from somewhere, Iran seems a reasonable suspect to me.

[Balschoiw 0]

I´d hold my breath there. I´m very sceptical about the White House releases on the Iran case. I´m sceptical because we´ve been presented stockpiles of WMD´s, mobile WMD labs and a Saddam Hussein who was said to be collaborating with AQ. It all turned out to be a pile of sh** and none of that "findings" ever turned out to be true. Even if wapons and material come into Iraq from Iran, btw there´s a lot coming in from the other bordering countries aswell (but the white house doesn´t really care for now) there is absolutely no proof that the iranian government is behind this.

Even US soldiers trade weapons in Iraq and they certainly do not work for the iranian government, but everyone seems to be fast when it´s about putting blame on a government. There is no proof as we speak, no proof, exactly as there was no proof for stockpiles of WMD´s, mobile WMD labs and AQ having a party with Saddam.

Bush is a warmongering idiot and he seems to be on his way for another (flirt with Israel) punctual mission in Iran. That´s why we get all those halfbaked nonsense. He again fails to provide solid evidence but tries to create an uneasy atmosphere within the public to justify the planned preemptive strike on Iran. We have seen this already with Iraq. The modus operandi hasn´t changed a bit. I wonder why people fail to see that. Once the bombs have been dropped he will claim it was intelligence fault and noone is really responsible... As if this would be a new thing.

Someone who speaks up against the White House line:

Quote[/b] ]Pace Stands By Cautious Remarks on Iran

By Al Pessin

Andersen Air Force Base, Guam

14 February 2007

The top American military officer is standing by remarks he made Monday, first reported by VOA, that appear to contradict U.S. military officials Baghdad, who said Iran's government is providing powerful bombs to Iraqi insurgents. The general also says the United States has no intention of attacking Iran. VOA's Al Pessin is traveling with the general, en route home from Australia and Indonesia, and filed this report from the Pacific island, Guam.

The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Peter Pace, says he has no disagreement with others in the U.S. government who have spoken on the subject, in recent days, but he believes it is important to be precise. In Canberra, and again twice in Jakarta, he repeated that the American government knows that material from Iran is being used to make powerful bombs in Iraq and that Iranians have been arrested twice, in the last month, participating in the distribution of such material.

But, on all three occasions, he contradicted U.S. military briefers in Iraq, who told reporters Sunday that Iran's government is behind the effort.

"That does not translate to that the Iranian government per se [specifically], for sure, is directly involved in doing this," he said.

General Pace told a small group of military educators in Jakarta, Wednesday, it is important to be as precise as possible and that it is important for him to speak with clarity when discussing international relations. He says Iranian officials clearly know their weapons and people have been found inside Iraq, but says he does not know what level - inside the Iranian government - is involved in sending the people and material.

The military briefers in Iraq - who spoke on condition of anonymity - said their claim that senior Iranian officials are directly involved in providing the powerful bombs to Iraqi insurgents was a conclusion based on what they called "the overall tenor" of the available evidence. Their evidence included numerous bomb parts they displayed and the arrest in Iraq of several Iranians who they say belong to the country's elite Quds force, including its second-ranking leader. But the briefers said they have not established a direct link between those men and the bomb-making material they showed reporters.

White House spokesman Tony Snow indicated he believes the Baghdad briefers, saying there is not a lot of independent activity in the Iranian government - especially on an issue like supplying weapons to foreign insurgents. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the military briefers in Baghdad made a "very strong circumstantial case," and made it very clear that the Iranians are, in his words, "up to their eyeballs in this activity."

General Pace says Iranian leaders certainly know material and people from their country have been found in the roadside bomb networks in Iraq. He told the educators in Jakarta that activity is "not acceptable." But, at his news conference Tuesday, he said the effort to stop it will be pursued only inside Iraq.

"We can do what we need to do, militarily, to protect the U.S. armed forces and the other armed forces inside of Iraq, and we will continue to do so, aggressively," he said. "The rest of the Iranian story, then, goes to diplomacy amongst nations."

The controversy over the Baghdad briefing led the New York Times to write an editorial calling for President Bush to make his intentions toward Iran clear and saying Congress should not allow itself to be convinced to support what the Times called "another disastrous war."

Speaking to American military personnel at the American embassy in Canberra, Monday, General Pace said the United States has "zero intent" to use its military forces now in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf against Iran.

"I see no need in the present situation for kinetic action against Iran," he said.

Finally someone who´s head is not stuck in the presidents poo-poo.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/15/war.plans.ap/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (AP) -- Some of the planning by Gen. Tommy Franks and other top military officials before the 2003 invasion of Iraq envisioned that as few as 5,000 U.S. troops would remain in Iraq by December 2006, according to documents obtained by a private research organization.

Slides obtained by the National Security Archive under the Freedom of Information Act contain a PowerPoint presentation of what planners projected to be a stable, pro-American and democratic Iraq after the ouster of Saddam Hussein.

"Completely unrealistic assumptions about a post-Saddam Iraq permeate these war plans," said National Security Archive Executive Director Thomas Blanton in a statement posted on the organization's Web site along with copies of some charts used in the PowerPoint presentation.

"First, they assumed that a provisional government would be in place by 'D-Day', then that the Iraqis would stay in their garrisons and be reliable partners, and finally that the post-hostilities phase would be a matter of mere 'months'. All of these were delusions."

The organization said it initially requested documents related to the 2001-2003 planning sessions in 2004 and received them last month.

It said the posting Wednesday "reproduces the documents as they were released by CentCom, together with additional items prepared by the National Security Archive" as well as a chronology of Iraq war planning based on secondary sources and commentary by archives staffers.

Posting of the documents was reported by The New York Times in a story for Thursday's editions which noted that "the general optimism and some details of General Franks' planning session have been disclosed in the copious postwar literature."

The archives posting of additional detail includes commentary from some of the books and other material previously published about the war and its aftermath.

The archive is an independent research institute at George Washington University

There you go folks. Wrong assumptions, wrong planning. Always plan for worst, hope for best, not plan for best, hope for best.

[Balschoiw 0]

You can download the "Alice in Wonderland" papers here:

PDF files of PP - Presentations

It´s astounding how stupid those plans are.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I guess that is what we have to expect with a bunch of NeoConMen, Chickenhawks, vietnam war dodgers in charge.

I lay this failed war with Iraq mainly at the door of Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and the rest of the Office of Special Plans crowd.

Regards Walker

[Balschoiw 0]

Is there any chance that the ones who are responsible for the whole deal are put to court for the death of over 3000 US servicemen/women that was a result of their blatant bullshit planning ?

[Donnervogel 0]

Is there any chance that the ones who are responsible for the whole deal are put to court for the death of over 3000 US servicemen/women that was a result of their blatant bullshit planning ?

I'm not so concerned about US servicemen/women that at least had the free choice of becoming puppets of their government. I'm more concerned about the people that died and had no choice to avoid the situation.

[baddo 0]

I'd put the people responsible for starting the war in Iraq into court, there they could explain their reasonings and evidences.

I remember the times when it seemed that a war is coming. The people at the school I was attending were getting angrier day by day. When the war had been started, angry comments from a lot of people were heard often. Today it does not surprise me that it has all become one big, giant mess.

Stalin tried to liberate the population of Finland in 1939-1940. He was going to bring us a better system which could only do good for us. He was surprised that we wanted to fight so hard against him, causing him a major embarrassment with our small army. Today, the people who started the war in Iraq are surprised because the Iraqis did not welcome them and are fighting so hard against them.

I want those who started it to clean it. They were told by others that their actions are not justified, and their actions will not be accepted by a lot of people. Now that you are in the mess, clean it up by yourself. Changing the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries does not change the fact that the reasons to start the war were highly unjustified and with no proof to back it up.

[walker 0]

Hi All

How a nation's administration treats its wounded and maimed soldiers says everything you need to know about that administration.

Behind the photo calls for that Vietnam War Dodger George Bush junior and his NeoConMen commie republican buddies when visiting the press studio sets at Walter Reed stands that darker reality for the tens of thousand of US soldiers the NeoConMen don't want you to see.

Quote[/b] ]Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

By Dana Priest and Anne Hull

Washington Post Staff Writers

Sunday, February 18, 2007; Page A01

Behind the door of Army Spec. Jeremy Duncan's room, part of the wall is torn and hangs in the air, weighted down with black mold. When the wounded combat engineer stands in his shower and looks up, he can see the bathtub on the floor above through a rotted hole. The entire building, constructed between the world wars, often smells like greasy carry-out. Signs of neglect are everywhere: mouse droppings, belly-up cockroaches, stained carpets, cheap mattresses.

This is the world of Building 18, not the kind of place where Duncan expected to recover when he was evacuated to Walter Reed Army Medical Center from Iraq last February with a broken neck and a shredded left ear, nearly dead from blood loss. But the old lodge, just outside the gates of the hospital and five miles up the road from the White House, has housed hundreds of maimed soldiers recuperating from injuries suffered in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The common perception of Walter Reed is of a surgical hospital that shines as the crown jewel of military medicine. But 5 1/2 years of sustained combat have transformed the venerable 113-acre institution into something else entirely -- a holding ground for physically and psychologically damaged outpatients. Almost 700 of them -- the majority soldiers, with some Marines -- have been released from hospital beds but still need treatment or are awaiting bureaucratic decisions before being discharged or returned to active duty.

They suffer from brain injuries, severed arms and legs, organ and back damage, and various degrees of post-traumatic stress. Their legions have grown so exponentially -- they outnumber hospital patients at Walter Reed 17 to 1 -- that they take up every available bed on post and spill into dozens of nearby hotels and apartments leased by the Army. The average stay is 10 months, but some have been stuck there for as long as two years.

Not all of the quarters are as bleak as Duncan's, but the despair of Building 18 symbolizes a larger problem in Walter Reed's treatment of the wounded, according to dozens of soldiers, family members, veterans aid groups, and current and former Walter Reed staff members interviewed by two Washington Post reporters, who spent more than four months visiting the outpatient world without the knowledge or permission of Walter Reed officials. Many agreed to be quoted by name; others said they feared Army retribution if they complained publicly.

While the hospital is a place of scrubbed-down order and daily miracles, with medical advances saving more soldiers than ever, the outpatients in the Other Walter Reed encounter a messy bureaucratic battlefield nearly as chaotic as the real battlefields they faced overseas.

On the worst days, soldiers say they feel like they are living a chapter of "Catch-22." The wounded manage other wounded. Soldiers dealing with psychological disorders of their own have been put in charge of others at risk of suicide.

Disengaged clerks, unqualified platoon sergeants and overworked case managers fumble with simple needs: feeding soldiers' families who are close to poverty, replacing a uniform ripped off by medics in the desert sand or helping a brain-damaged soldier remember his next appointment.

"We've done our duty. We fought the war. We came home wounded. Fine. But whoever the people are back here who are supposed to give us the easy transition should be doing it," said Marine Sgt. Ryan Groves, 26, an amputee who lived at Walter Reed for 16 months. "We don't know what to do. The people who are supposed to know don't have the answers. It's a nonstop process of stalling."...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....72.html

Follow the link for the full story

Here is a photo and audio presentation that goes with the article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv....eedday1

Here is a link to the video if you have not time to read the whole article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....70.html

Meanwhile the NeoConMen have been letting companies like Haliburton have the biggest social security cheque in history watched gas prices triple under TBA and are no doubt looking forward to revolving door jobs with all the companies that looted the US tax payers billions that was supposed to go for Iraq recovery or the Iraqis own oil money.

They are supposed to wait a couple of years to get in their revolving door jobs the law says, all though there is every indication that Donald Rumsfeld and others are for ignoring this law. To tide them selves over till they get to their revolving door jobs they are going to $100,000 a night speaking engagements where the tickets are paid for by those same people who will give them those revolving door jobs.

Sickened Walker