Blended metal ammo

[Gordy 0]

See what happens to a piece of beef.

rtsp://rm001.infi.net:80/~atpco/realserver/Blended_Metal_vs_potroast.rm

The second is actually funny, because of the recoil and a falling guy.

rtsp://rm001.infi.net:80/~atpco/realserver/High_Impulse_Weapon_wm.rm

[Gollum1 0]

Aah yes, I heard about this "blended metal" round. U.S Army tests on ballistic gelatin didn't produce satisfactory results, but...there was apparently and incident in Iraq where a PSD shot an insurgent in the ass (!) with this round and the result was tremendous, most of his hip and leg were blown completely to bits ...I can't vouch for the authenticity of this but it came from the mouth of someone involved in the development in the round IIRC, the rounds were in Iraq for testing purposes. All the other PSD's who saw the results wanted the round and the 30-round mag was split into 5 bullets for every man.

Well, make of that what you will, I'll try to find the original link...

edit: Wii found it

Quote[/b] ]

By John G. Roos

Special to the Times

Ben Thomas and three colleagues were driving north out of Baghdad in an SUV on a clear mid-September morning, headed down a dirt road into a rural village, when gunmen in several surrounding buildings opened fire on them.

In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.

He hit the man in the buttocks, a wound that typically is not fatal. But this round appeared to kill the assailant instantly.

“It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart,†Thomas said.

Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government, recorded the first known enemy kill using a new — and controversial — bullet.

The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it. The ammunition is “nonstandard†and hasn’t passed the military’s approval process.

“The way I explain what happened to people who weren’t there is … this stuff was like hitting somebody with a miniature explosive round,†he said, even though the ammo does not have an explosive tip. “Nobody believed that this guy died from a butt shot.â€

The bullet Thomas fired was an armor-piercing, limited-penetration round manufactured by RBCD of San Antonio.

A new process

APLP ammo is manufactured using a so-called “blended-metal†process, said Stan Bulmer, president of sales and manufacturing for Le Mas Ltd. of Little Rock, Ark. Le Mas is the distributor of RBCD ammo.

Various bullet types made by RBCD are designed for different effects, Bulmer said.

The frangible APLP ammo will bore through steel and other hard targets but will not pass through a human torso, an eight-inch-thick block of artist’s clay or even several layers of drywall. Instead of passing through a body, it shatters, creating “untreatable wounds.â€

Le Mas gave Thomas a small number of APLP rounds after he contacted the company.

After driving off their attackers, Thomas and his colleagues quickly searched the downed enemy fighter for items of intelligence value. They also took time to examine the wound.

“There’s absolutely no comparison, whatever, none,†to other wounds he has seen from 5.56mm ammo, Thomas said in a telephone interview while on home leave in Florida.

He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet’s effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo, including the standard-issue green tip and the Black Hills Mk 262, favored by spec-ops troops.

Thomas was the only member of the four-man group who had RBCD ammo. He said that after the group returned to base, they and other members of his group snatched up the remaining rounds.

“They were fighting over it,†he said. “At the end of the day, each of us took five rounds. That’s all we had left.â€

Congress wants tests

Last year’s defense budget included $1.05 million for testing blended-metal bullets, Bulmer said. Fourteen months into the 24-month period during which those research and development-testing funds must be spent, the military has not purchased a single bullet from Le Mas.

Publicly, at least, military officials say RBCD ammo is no more effective than other types now in use and, under certain conditions, doesn’t even perform as well. Those conclusions are derived from a series of tests conducted a few years ago in which RBCD ammo’s effects were observed in ballistic gelatin, the standard means for testing bullets.

Naval Reserve Lt. Cmdr. Gary Roberts, a recognized ballistics expert and member of the International Wound Ballistics Association, conducted the gelatin tests in March 2002.

According to his findings, “Claims that RBCD bullet terminal performance can vary depending on target thickness, size or mass were not shown to have merit, as bullet performance remained consistent irrespective of gelatin block size.â€

Roberts found that in gelatin, a 9mm, 60-grain slug exhibited “tissue damage comparable to that of other nonexpanding 9mm bullets and is less than that of standard 9mm [jacketed hollow point] designs, since the RBCD bullet does not create as much tissue damage due to its smaller recovered diameter.â€

A .45-caliber bullet “offered average terminal performance in bare and denim-clad gelatin, similar to that noted with the 9mm bullet. ... The RBCD bullets do not appear to be a true frangible design, as significant mass is retained after striking a target.â€

Not surprisingly, Roberts’ assessment remains a major impediment to getting RBCD ammo into military hands. Considering his standing in the ballistics community, his findings are accepted as gospel by many influential members of the special-operations community.

But Bulmer insists that tests in ballistic gelatin fail to demonstrate RBCD ammo’s actual performance because the gelatin is chilled to 36 degrees. Their bullets seem to shatter most effectively only when they strike warmer targets, such as live tissue. Bulmer said tests using live animals clearly would show its effects. Despite his appeals for such testing, and the funds set aside by Congress to conduct new tests, the military refuses.

Bulmer said authority to spend the testing funds initially went to U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., which delegated testing responsibility to the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, N.C.

Queries to the command confirmed that it was aware of the testing requirement but had not decided when, or if, the tests will be conducted.

Bill Skipper, president and CEO of the American Business Development Group, is a lobbyist representing Le Mas on Capitol Hill. “When I heard of the ballistic characteristics of this ammo, as a retired military officer, I realized it has to stay in the good guys’ hands,†he said, adding that SOCom’s reluctance to test it is “irresponsible.â€

“This is an issue of national security,†he said.

Some supporters of RBCD ammunition suggest SOCom officials may be reluctant to test the ammo because it threatens “in-house†weapons and ammunition programs underway at the command.

Special-operations forces long have sought a more potent standard round than the 5.56mm, which lacks the punch needed during the long-distance engagements that frequently occur in Afghanistan and Iraq. In response, SOCom is working with weapons and ammunition manufacturers to develop a new round and new upper receivers for M4 and M16 rifles.

The command apparently has narrowed its search to a 6.8-by-43mm round.

Indication of industries’ involvement in this effort was seen in October during the annual Association of the U.S. Army exhibition in Washington.

If Le Mas’ 5.56mm APLP round delivers the performance SOCom is seeking in the new 6.8mm ammo — and Bulmer insists it does — the rationale and the potentially lucrative contracts for producing a new ammo type and modifying thousands of weapons used by special-operations forces would disappear.

Thomas said he isn’t familiar with the reasons that might keep RBCD ammo from getting a realistic test within the military.

“The politics, that’s above my pay grade,†he said. “All I really care about is that I have the best-performing weapon, optics, communications, medical equipment, etc. I’m taking Le Mas ammo with me when I return to Iraq, and I’ve already promised lots of this ammo to my buddies who were there that day and to their friends.â€

When military officials in the United States got wind that Thomas had used the round, he quickly found himself in the midst of an online debate in which an unnamed officer, who mistakenly assumed Thomas was in the service, threatened him with a court martial for using the nonstandard ammo.

Although Thomas was impressed by RBCD ammo’s performance, he feels it should not be the standard ammunition issued to all U.S. forces.

“The first thing I say when I talk to people about Le Mas’ ammo is, make sure that 22-year-old infantrymen don’t get a hold of this, because if they have an accident ... if they have a negligent discharge, that person is dead. It doesn’t matter how much body armor you have on.

“This is purely for putting into bad guys. For general inventory, absolutely not. For special operations, I wouldn’t carry anything else.â€

A video clip on RBCD ammo that was shot at the annual Armed Forces Journal Shootout at Blackwater is online at www.armedforcesjournal.com/bullets.

John G. Roos is editor of Armed Forces Journal.

[DarkLight 0]

See what happens to a piece of beef.

rtsp://rm001.infi.net:80/~atpco/realserver/Blended_Metal_vs_potroast.rm

The second is actually funny, because of the recoil and a falling guy.

rtsp://rm001.infi.net:80/~atpco/realserver/High_Impulse_Weapon_wm.rm

What the hell do i have to do with the links?  Are they links?

I copy paste them but doesn't work...

[Colossus 2]

Same problem  

Can't display the links

[mr burns 132]

think realmediaplayer is needed ... a pitty i don´t wanna have rm

[Gordy 0]

these are real player stream links. They don't work for me in Opera but when I switch to IE it works just fine.

I don't like RP cause it's a sucky soft, but these vids are pretty cool. They were made on Blackwater shooting range.

[DarkLight 0]

think realmediaplayer is needed ... a pitty i don´t wanna have rm  

A pitty i'm too damn lazy to download it!

[Gordy 0]

On that site is also a test of an sniper rifle based on AR-15 chassie chambered 6.5 mm. Effective range 1000 yrds as they say.

Also, a spiner rifle with changable caliber  

http://www.militarycity.com/blackwater/videos.html

here's the site

[Gollum1 0]

think realmediaplayer is needed ... a pitty i don´t wanna have rm

Mega Codec Pack

The answer to every missing video and audio format you will ever need and more...

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Such rounds are illegal to use in combat for most countries. (although the US never bothered signing that treaty afaik) Hollowpoint, explosive rounds, whatever; if they create injuries like that, they are illegal.

[mr burns 132]

think realmediaplayer is needed ... a pitty i don´t wanna have rm  

Mega Codec Pack

The answer to every missing video and audio format you will ever need and more...

thx for the hint, downloading now  

http://www.sscmagnum.de/hochgeschwindigkeitsvideos.htm (right click pics & save as..)

http://www.bsg-dornier.de/schiess....lme.htm                     ( " )

here are some slowmo videos of handguns & rifles being fired, some very interesting insights..though i have the strange feeling that the links were posted on these forums before  

Quote[/b] ]if they create injuries like that, they are illegal.

the same goes for the g11   ?

[Pathy 0]

Yes such rounds are illegal in international law....its to do with the maiming potential it has....

AFAIK, .50 cal bullets can only be used (according to ROE) when the person with whatever that weapon that they are using (eg, a Barret anti material rifle) is fired upon or is being attacked.....otherwise, these are only intended as anti material rounds, and it would be illegal for use against personnel. I imagine these would fall into a similar category.

[blackdog~ 0]

Guns are illegal in Europe and Australia too, you think that's gonna stop us from making a bullet in our country?

[Milkman 1]

Yes such rounds are illegal in international law....its to do with the maiming potential it has....

AFAIK, .50 cal bullets can only be used (according to ROE) when the person with whatever that weapon that they are using (eg, a Barret anti material rifle) is fired upon or is being attacked.....otherwise, these are only intended as anti material rounds, and it would be illegal for use against personnel. I imagine these would fall into a similar category.

I have heard that during training instructors would tell M2 gunners that it was illegal to shoot a man with it, but nothing was wrong with shooting the equipment on the soldiers.

By the way, why would you outlaw effective weapons and ammunition? Why ban napalm, hollowpoints etc? They do their job well is there something wrong with that?

@Baron: United States doesnt use explosive, hollowpoint or blended metal ammo. This was a PMC which is a civilian and he could have bought it anywhere.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Guns are illegal in Europe and Australia too, you think that's gonna stop us from making a bullet in our country?

No they aren't.

@ milkman: Why ban 'effective' weapons? A little something called the Geneva convention?

I know the man was a private contractor; but the US has not signed the relevant treaty banning the use of such weapons anyway, which is why I mentioned it.

[Gordy 0]

I can even argue that those ammuniction are more humane than regular.

Regular goes through u but this will blow u to pieces. In which case the death may occur instantly? The same with hunting. U will use a shotgun to kill a duck.

[Mister Frag 0]

@ milkman: Why ban 'effective' weapons?  A little something called the Geneva convention?

Nitpick: it's actually the Hague conventions that govern the rules of Warfare on Land.

And no, the United States never ratified them, though it abides by them.

[Gollum1 0]

I can even argue that those ammuniction are more humane than regular.

Regular goes through u but this will blow u to pieces. In which case the death may occur instantly? The same with hunting. U will use a shotgun to kill a duck.

One regular bullet won't necessarily kill you.

[Mister Frag 0]

U will use a shotgun to kill a duck.  

That's not why people use shotguns to hunt ducks.

They use them because shotshells greatly increase the chance of hitting a bird, but the mass and energy of the pellets that hit the duck will often be much less than what even a small caliber rifle round offers. It's just that most people can't hit a fast-moving duck with a rifle -- heck, many have trouble hitting one with a shotgun...

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Nitpick: it's actually the Hague conventions that govern the rules of Warfare on Land.

And no, the United States never ratified them, though it abides by them.

Woops! Thanks.

[blackdog~ 0]

Guns are illegal in Europe and Australia too, you think that's gonna stop us from making a bullet in our country?

No they aren't.

With the current laws against them, they might as well be banned all together.

[Milkman 1]

I can even argue that those ammuniction are more humane than regular.

Regular goes through u but this will blow u to pieces. In which case the death may occur instantly? The same with hunting. U will use a shotgun to kill a duck.  

One regular bullet won't necessarily kill you.

What about a shot in the face, neck, femoral artery, lungs, heart, spice, skull, sternum? All are fatal to one shot unless you are one lucky son-of-a-bitch.

[EiZei 0]

Guns are illegal in Europe and Australia too, you think that's gonna stop us from making a bullet in our country?

No they aren't.

With the current laws against them, they might as well be banned all together.

Dunno, I really don't consider having to apply for a license and not having convictions "banning".

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

With the current laws against them, they might as well be banned all together.

Dunno, I really don't consider having to apply for a license and not having convictions "banning".

Exactly.

Stopping any random psychopath from owning what can be a dangerous weapon is not the same as making them illegal.

[Mister Frag 0]

Hmmm... I thought there was already a complete ban on murder. But I'm sure piling additional laws on top of that will finally ensure well-being and happiness for everyone.