Former president ronald reagan dies

[Grizzlie 0]

It is well said "point of sit changes point of view". Here in Poland i bet he will have some streets or squares of his name.

[denoir 0]

If you're talking about a convetional attack/invasion, I have to ask, what have you been smoking?

Not me, but US troops. After Vietnam the US military had basically collapsed internally. There was no unit discipline. There were shortages of men. The chain of command was not respected. There was a huge drug problem. The state of readiness was non-existant. Basically all its energy was focused on just trying to maintain internal order.

Excluding the nukes, Sweden could have invaded the US at that time. The Soviets would have had no problem as they were on their all time high during the '70s.

I'm surprised that you didn't know this. It's history book material by now. You should talk to somebody who served in the US military at that time.

This had effects all over the globe. For instance it was the reason why Sweden invested a shitload of money in the late seventies into the military. The US was not considered to be an equal to the Soviet union any more and its capability to help its allies was very limited. If there ever was a time for a Soviet invasion of Europe, it would have been in the 1970's.

[theavonlady 2]

Here in Poland i bet he will have some streets or squares of his name.

That was quick!

[denoir 0]

@ June 06 2004,09:53)]

Quote[/b] ]Anyhow, IMO for his contribution to ending the cold war, America and the rest of the western world owe Reagan a debt of gratitude. Of course he did a bunch of not-so-good things as well and the extent of his contributions can be debated. The seriousness of the cold war situation warrents however that one is very appreciative of the type of contribution that he made. So I'm happy to overlook the things I strongly disagreed with.

And that's one of the reasons why Reagan's policies should be looked at with a very powerful microscope before they are rubber stamped by mainstream historians. With hindsight, a move like starting production on an entirely new ICBM class with reputed first-stike capability seems less mind-numbingly risky than it did back then. And I reiterate, today we are seeing the results of such self-assured recklessness play out with a much less sympathetic set of circumstances.

It was completely reckless, and had I been politically conscious at that time, I would have certainly despised Reagan. The thing is however that his gamble worked. Now it can be debated endlessly if it was because he was a good player or if he just was lucky. But it worked.

There are a number of things about Reagan's politics that I positively contempt, but I don't think this is the right time to bring it up.

Quote[/b] ]As for overlooking smaller disagreements, that is a dangerous concession to make to right-wingers in America. These folks (ex: Icefire) think that Reagan hung the moon and stars, and would name half the government buildings in America after him;

So what? Is getting a building named after you of any political consequence?

Quote[/b] ]at the same time, they are convinced that Clinton brought the country within an eyelash of total moral collapse. They will naturally brook no argument in the matter. Of course, you don't have to worry about that.

.. and then the Democrats will come in power and name half the other half of the government buildings after Clinton

I think you should worry more about the actions of current and live presidents than of dead ones. Sure the republicans are glorifying Reagan beyond any reasonable proportion, but who cares? If they want Reagan to be their party mascot, why not?

Blindly implementing reaganomics or an agressive foreign policy isn't a universal solution. Bush was kind enough to give us a demonstration. So I doubt that there will be many Reagan-copy cats.

[theavonlady 2]

A dissenting voice:

Quote[/b] ]Gadhafi: Pity Reagan died before standing trial

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

TRIPOLI, Libya

Moammar Gadhafi expressed regret Sunday that former U.S. President Ronald Reagan died without ever standing trial for 1986 air strikes he ordered that killed the Libyan leader's adopted daughter and 36 other people.

Reagan ordered the April 15, 1986, air raid in response to a discotheque bombing in Berlin allegedly ordered by Gadhafi that killed two U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman and injured 229 people.

"I express my deep regret because Reagan died before facing justice for his ugly crime that he committed in 1986 against the Libyan children," Libya's official JANA news agency quoted Gadhafi as saying.

In contrast:

Quote[/b] ]Gorbachev calls Reagan 'great president'

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

MOSCOW

Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev hailed Ronald Reagan as a great U.S. president on Sunday and said he was distraught by news of his death, the Interfax news agency reported.

"I deem Ronald Reagan a great president, with whom the Soviet leadership was able to launch a very difficult but important dialogue," the agency quoted Gorbachev as saying on Ekho Moskvy radio.

[Pathy 0]

I agree with Tex, Reagan did not single handedly end the cold war. The USSR was dying off anyway.

Want me to expand on that? It will make good revision for my Cold War history exam coming up.....

[theavonlady 2]

Nothing special. Just appropriate.

Former U.S. President Ronald Reagan and former first lady

Nancy Reagan walk through the thousands of graves in the

American Cemetery in Omaha Beach, Normandy, France, in

this June 6, 1984, file photo, during ceremonies for the 40th

anniversary of the D-Day allied invasion of occupied France.

Reagan, the cheerful crusader who devoted his presidency to

winning the Cold War, trying to scale back government and

making people believe it was ``morning again in America,''

died Saturday, June 5, 2004,after a long twilight struggle with

Alzheimer's disease. He was 93.

[denoir 0]

My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.

(During a microphone check on August 11 1984, unaware that he was being broadcast )

[Nemesis6 0]

Anyone interested in hearing this quote, go to http://www.the-earchives.com/scripts/detail.asp?queryby=downloads

and search for the word "russia", it'll be the first thing that shows up.

[DarkLight 0]

He actually said that?

Gotta love the americans

[Tex -USMC- 0]

My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.

(During a microphone check on August 11 1984, unaware that he was being broadcast )

   

Say what you'll say, but the man was fuckin' hilarious.

What the hell- you will be missed, Ron.

[Unhappy customer 0]

Kruschev said that he would put every capitalist in a grave. Another prominent communist said that Russia would "hang the last capitalist with the rope that he manufactured"....

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Very sad to hear of Reagans death. My grandfather died of Alzheimers, ive seen what it does to a person.  

On his presidency from what i know (only a little) it seems  mixed. Kind of like Thatcher in the UK he brought back self confidence and optimism to the US but at a certain cost.

Its true that its too easy to look back and say that the USSR was always going to collapse roughly when it did. Who knew that in the early eighties, and further, who knows how another president might have handled it? The fact is that, despite the problems that Tex refers to, the end of the cold war could have turned out much uglier than it did and Reagan played a major part in that (apparently Reagan was even considering, and willing to discuss with Gorbachev, complete nuclear disarmament but Thatcher helped talk him out of it).

However on Reagans foreign policy record, isnt it true that as well as playing a part in events in Afghanistan (the equipping and supporting of the most radical islamist Mujahedeen elements over more moderate anti soviet groups for example) it was during his presidency also that the ill fated mission to Lebanon took place, in which the Hezbollah from their perspective succeeded in suicide bombing the US marines back home, surely an ill omen for the future and a bad signal to send to terrorist groups?

In helping end the Cold War it seems Reagans administration may have unwittingly played a part in stirring up some of the current difficulties (though in the context of the cold war Reagan could -perhaps- be forgiven for failing to identify just how anti communist actions of today would play out in a uni-polar new world order of tomorrow).

I find it hard not to see a cloud surrounding many of the  Reagan administrations silver linings, but the man himself was a fine statesman and no mistake.

RIP      

[Schoeler 0]

That is all correct. It wasn't Reagan alone. The Soviets did a pretty good job in the 80's of running themselves into the ground. The seriousness of the cold war situation however cannot be underestimate. We were then talking about a serious possibility of the extermination of man kind. One cannot understate the immense pressure and terror people were under. And after the Vietnam war there was a US military breakdown. If the Soviets had attacked in the late '70s, they would have won. Reagan contributed to ending that trend. He did it first by staging an insane hyper arms race that the Soviets had to play along with but could not afford. And then when Gorbachev and his Perestrojka came into effect, Reagan did a 180 turn and started building a good relationship with the new Soviet leadership. One of Reagans greatest contributions was that the cold war ended in such a nice way. Of course on the other side, Gorbatchev was at least as much responsible for the changes that occured.

Anyhow, IMO for his contribution to ending the cold war, America and the rest of the western world owe Reagan a debt of gratitude. Of course he did a bunch of not-so-good things as well and the extent of his contributions can be debated. The seriousness of the cold war situation warrents however that one is very appreciative of the type of contribution that he made. So I'm happy to overlook the things I strongly disagreed with.

Holy crap I'm going to have to agree with Denoir here!

Tex, the U.S. military was on the ropes in 1980 and on the verge of if not totally decayed morale-wise. Reagan changed that and made us equal to if not better than the Soviets.

The psychological climate of the time was very intense and depressing. Everyone expected a war with Soviet Russia and possibly nuclear devastation. The tensions between the U.S. and the Soviets were actually increasing again. Look at the olympic boycotts and all the brushfire wars going on back then.

Reagan helped beat the Soviets through an aggressive stance by escalating the arms race. He knew the Soviets could not match the U.S. economically in the SDI race and that it would break the bank. SDI was largely a front, it never really was intended to bring a complete weapons system on-line, it was just used to convince the Soviets to spend more in an attempt to keep up and it hastened their collapse.

Now I agree with Toadlife, economically, Reagan screwed us over, but maybe that was the price of ending the Cold War? History will tell us eventually.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]You couldn't be more wrong. By circa 1980 it was a general concensus that USA was going to lose the cold war. The Soviet military was in far better shape (the US was licking its wounds from Vietnam), their economy was doing farily well (as opposed to the series of oil crisis in the late '70s. America and how the world viewed America was at an all time low. You were by others, and largely by yourselves considered as losers.

Reagan changed that.

Couldn't agree more. Even though Reagan's death was not unexpected I felt quite sad now that this famous American president of my childhood years has now passed away...

[Akira 0]

If the Soviets had attacked in the late '70s, they would have won.

What? How would they 'win'?

If you're talking about an attack with nukes, nobody would have won, but the chance either side lauching such a strike was extrememly unlikely due to MAD.

If you're talking about a convetional attack/invasion, I have to ask, what have you been smoking?

I remember when we moved to Germany, I was about 11 or 12 I think. My Dad told us where to go go in case of evacuation and to get out without him as he would have to stay anyway (even though he was not strictly combat).

It was accepted fact at that time that Germany, and the forces in Germany, were little more than speedbumps to the mass of Soviet armor that would cross the border. There was no way they would be stopped and the basic plan was to at least hope to delay them long enough for the mythical convoy system to kick in...

[Mister Frag 0]

A dissenting voice:

Quote[/b] ]Gadhafi: Pity Reagan died before standing trial

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

TRIPOLI, Libya

Moammar Gadhafi expressed regret Sunday that former U.S. President Ronald Reagan died without ever standing trial for 1986 air strikes he ordered that killed the Libyan leader's adopted daughter and 36 other people.

Reagan ordered the April 15, 1986, air raid in response to a discotheque bombing in Berlin allegedly ordered by Gadhafi that killed two U.S. soldiers and a Turkish woman and injured 229 people.

"I express my deep regret because Reagan died before facing justice for his ugly crime that he committed in 1986 against the Libyan children," Libya's official JANA news agency quoted Gadhafi as saying.

Looks like Gadhafi is also suffering from Altzheimer's, since he seems to have forgotten not only the disco bombing in Berlin, but also the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 that he ordered. He has no leg to stand on when he calls for a trial of Reagan.

It seems that this thread has veered off the road and into a ditch...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

C'mon, it's Gadhafi- what were you expecting, exactly?

[Mister Frag 0]

I don't know, I seemed recently that with age, the guy was slowly coming to his senses. Apparently I was jumping to conclusions...

[denoir 0]

Reagan called in airstrikes against his residence and IIRC one or two of Gadhafi's children died. So his statement is hardly surprising.

[Mister Frag 0]

I'm just appalled by the gall of Gadhafi. Doesn't he realize that when you attack innocent civilians, the people you attacked might retaliate? And it wasn't some random bombing of a civilian airliner, but a targeted airstrike on his residence.

Of course the loss of innocent lives is highly regrettable, but why Gadhafi thinks that an executive order for an attempt on his life should warrant court proceedings, and two devastating bombings of uninvolved civilians that he himself ordered do not, is beyond me.

[redliner47 0]

Just after Reagan was shot, they brought him to the hospital and as he was bleeding into his chest he said....

"I Hope you're all republicans"

[denoir 0]

I'm just appalled by the gall of Gadhafi. Doesn't he realize that when you attack innocent civilians, the people you attacked might retaliate?

Why? Reagan killed his kids. Do you expect him to be happy about it? If I was Gadhafi, I would be celebrating.

Quote[/b] ]And it wasn't some random bombing of a civilian airliner, but a targeted airstrike on his residence.

...which is not a military target. And the only people that got killed were civilians. What Gadhafi himself was involved in is hardly an argument. It wasn't him that got killed in the air strike.

[Mister Frag 0]

From http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122042,00.html

Quote[/b] ]Cuba: Reagan Should 'Never Have Been Born'

HAVANA — Cuba harshly criticized former President Ronald Reagan (search) and his policies on Monday, saying he should "never have been born."

In the first reaction to Reagan's death from the communist government, Radio Reloj (search) said:

"As forgetful and irresponsible as he was, he forgot to take his worst works to the grave," the government radio station said.

"He, who never should have been born, has died," the radio said.

The statement did not mention Cuba's relationship with the United States under Reagan, a staunch foe of communism.

It also did not mention Reagan's decision to order U.S. forces to invade the tiny Caribbean country of Grenada on Oct. 25, 1983, because Washington feared the island had grown too close to Cuba.

Since the early 1960s, Cuba and the United States have been without diplomatic relations, and Cuba has been under a U.S. trade embargo. But relations between the two countries were especially tense when Reagan was in office from 1981-1989.

Radio Reloj lambasted Reagan's military policies, especially the "Star Wars" anti-missile program (search). The initiative, launched when the Soviet Union still existed, rejected a long-standing doctrine built on the idea that neither superpower would start a nuclear war out of fear of annihilation by the other.

The radio also criticized Reagan's policies in Central America, where Washington backed a counterrevolutionary rebel army that fought against the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua. The United States also supported a conservative government that battled Marxist guerrillas during El Salvador's civil war.

"His apologists characterize him as the victor of the Cold War (search)," the radio said. "Those in the know knew that the reality was not so, but rather (he was) the destroyer of policies of detente in the overall quest for peace."

[Mister Frag 0]

As I said before, I'm not happy about the loss of innocent life during the airstrike on Gadhafi.

I'm just in total disbelief that Gadhafi thinks that Ronald Reagan should have stood trial for a single failed targeted strike against the man who ordered or approved two separate previous bombings of civilians, while Gadhafi himself contends that he's done nothing wrong.