International Politics Thread

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

LOL, there really is no difference nowadays between the US and Russia.  We both think we hold the moral high ground over the other and have no problem kicking the shit out of smaller countries to prove it.  

We both support "freedom" and "justice" when it benefits the corrupt, tyrannical people in our respective capitals.  We have a vested interest in petroleum, and so do you.  We call you guys out for invading Georgia because we sell shit to the Georgians (weapons, training, etc).  You guys call us out about threatening Iran because you sell shit to the Iranians (the same).  Our leaders want an empire, your leaders want an empire.  We have a powerful military, you have a powerful military.  Our citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and our standing in the world, your citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and your standing in the world.  Our citizens are ignorant, your citizens are ignorant.

It's all the same.  Enough with the pissing contests over who's more moral, more enlightened, or more just than the other guy.

I rarely play the "we're all just people" card but fuck, this is getting rediculous.

[-Snafu- 78]

So what? We ain't supposed to discuss or criticise?

[Spokesperson 0]

LOL, there really is no difference nowadays between the US and Russia.  We both think we hold the moral high ground over the other and have no problem kicking the shit out of smaller countries to prove it.  

We both support "freedom" and "justice" when it benefits the corrupt, tyrannical people in our respective capitals.  We have a vested interest in petroleum, and so do you.  We call you guys out for invading Georgia because we sell shit to the Georgians (weapons, training, etc).  You guys call us out about threatening Iran because you sell shit to the Iranians (the same).  Our leaders want an empire, your leaders want an empire.  We have a powerful military, you have a powerful military.  Our citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and our standing in the world, your citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and your standing in the world.  Our citizens are ignorant, your citizens are ignorant.

It's all the same.  Enough with the pissing contests over who's more moral, more enlightened, or more just than the other guy.

I rarely play the "we're all just people" card but fuck, this is getting rediculous.

Nicely put, that's how it works. At least someone is using his mind.

Anyway. Now I'm providing you today's article on the issue written by a hero and a living legend:

CANNON FODDER FOR THE MARKET

Perhaps some governments are unaware of the concrete facts, and so for that reason Raúl’s message setting Cuba’s position seemed to us to be very timely. I shall be generous in the aspects that cannot be dealt with in a brief and precise official statement.

The government of Georgia would never have launched its armed forces against the capital of the Autonomous Republic of South Ossetia in the dawn of August 8th, engaged in what it called the re-establishing of constitutional order, without previous coordination with Bush who, last month in Bucharest, committed to support President Saakashvili for Georgia’s admission to NATO; that is like plunging a sharpened dagger deep into Russia’s heart. [i cut it here for format issues].

Full article here: http://www.plenglish.com/article....uage=EN

Fidel Castro Ruz

August 11, 2008

6:21 p.m.

[Teo 0]

Spokesperson you have your opinion and that is fair enough, but I'm guessing you haven't a clue about the effort it takes for a person to take on the financial risk and sacrifice of one's own time in setting up a business. I applaud anyone who has the guts to go out an set up on their own. If you're prepared to work you will do well, if you're not well don't expect a hand out. I'm an accountant by profession (and people pay me for my knowledge), so don't even try to persuade me that you know better.

You should move to an EU country and work for a small private owned company and take a look at the employers obligations to the employee, trade unions, labour courts etc.

Sorry I won't talk about this again as it is off topic.

[-Snafu- 78]

LOL, there really is no difference nowadays between the US and Russia.  We both think we hold the moral high ground over the other and have no problem kicking the shit out of smaller countries to prove it.  

We both support "freedom" and "justice" when it benefits the corrupt, tyrannical people in our respective capitals.  We have a vested interest in petroleum, and so do you.  We call you guys out for invading Georgia because we sell shit to the Georgians (weapons, training, etc).  You guys call us out about threatening Iran because you sell shit to the Iranians (the same).  Our leaders want an empire, your leaders want an empire.  We have a powerful military, you have a powerful military.  Our citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and our standing in the world, your citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and your standing in the world.  Our citizens are ignorant, your citizens are ignorant.

It's all the same.  Enough with the pissing contests over who's more moral, more enlightened, or more just than the other guy.

I rarely play the "we're all just people" card but fuck, this is getting rediculous.

Quote[/b] ]Nicely put,that's how it works. At least someone is using his mind.

Err, earlier on you stated that Russia was right on this and thus on the higher moral pedestal than Georgia.

Page 64:

Quote[/b] ]To me it's quite evident who's right in this conflict:

1. US-trained Georgian soldiers invade South Ossetia when OS-starts. The 1000-man strong russian UN-peacekeeping force has no chance.

2. Georgians burn separatist villages and blast capital with artillery. Civilians and peacekeepers die.

3. Russia sends reinforcements to its peacekeepers. (Now it's Russias fault according to -most- of the western press).

4. Georgians retreat but not away from S. O. and demand a truce.

5. Georgians attack the russian soldiers from georgian territory.

6. Russia attacks those airfields and artillery positions. (Now the russian war lovers went further into Georgia according to western press).

7. When bombing a factory in Gori some houses got hit. A handful people die. The press shows these pictures over and over. But what is a house compared to a city?

And what is Georgia doing in Iraq? Who invited them there?  Saddam? who at least didn't sell his country at bargain prices to foreign interests. No complaints about them participating in that boot-licking invasion/occupation.

My bold.

Clearly you have not been using your mind at all.

[Spokesperson 0]

CNN use footage of Tskhinvali ruins to cover Georgian report:

American Tourist interviewed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=dvw01ye8sfM

Tshinvali:

"What happens is not just a war it's war crimes. George Bush and Saakashvili should answer to the crimes that have been committed. The killing of innocent people and the running over of graves and running over of tanks of women and children and throwing grenades into cellars to kill innocent people./.../Georgians are commiting genocide/.../America needs to stop supporting Georgia."

Quote[/b] ]Err, earlier on you stated that Russia was right on this and thus on the higher moral pedestal than Georgia.

Although the government of Russia is worse than that of the US (but not of Georgia) that what Russia does right now or did, is right.

I didn't comment the "moral grounds" but the logics of reasoning.

[akm74 1]

to SEAL84

+1

100% agree.

[scubaman3D 0]

Right, but the Georgian forces didn't need to be massed I suppose? Your logic is flawed. IF the Georgians can see the Russians massing, the Russians can see the Georgian's massing.

Who is too say the Russians weren't responding to a Georgian build up, that we all know has been planned for three years.

Sorry mate but I'm not from the U.S.S.R. and they didn't tell me to say that.

Do you honestly believe that if the Georgian forces saw a massed tank armada on their border they would have started to shell Ossetia?

I've heard no complaints of a Russian build up from Georgia.

I don't think they were expecting the Russians to respond at all.

Saakashvili was stupid, sure, but he's not positively retarded.

They have UAVs hombre...remember when the Russians shot a Georgian UAV down?

Thats how they were keeping an eye on the Russians at the border.

And talk about flawed logic...the Georgian military was never massing at the border of Russia.

PS, the USSR doesn't exist anymore...didn't you get the memo

[Baff1 0]

LOL, there really is no difference nowadays between the US and Russia.  We both think we hold the moral high ground over the other and have no problem kicking the shit out of smaller countries to prove it.  

We both support "freedom" and "justice" when it benefits the corrupt, tyrannical people in our respective capitals.  We have a vested interest in petroleum, and so do you.  We call you guys out for invading Georgia because we sell shit to the Georgians (weapons, training, etc).  You guys call us out about threatening Iran because you sell shit to the Iranians (the same).  Our leaders want an empire, your leaders want an empire.  We have a powerful military, you have a powerful military.  Our citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and our standing in the world, your citizens are pissed off about the economy, health care, and your standing in the world.  Our citizens are ignorant, your citizens are ignorant.

It's all the same.  Enough with the pissing contests over who's more moral, more enlightened, or more just than the other guy.

I rarely play the "we're all just people" card but fuck, this is getting rediculous.

What a great post and so true.

@Spokesperson. Get a job.

You aren't qualified to lecture on the subjects of work or investment until you've had some experience.

[Baff1 0]

Right, but the Georgian forces didn't need to be massed I suppose? Your logic is flawed. IF the Georgians can see the Russians massing, the Russians can see the Georgian's massing.

Who is too say the Russians weren't responding to a Georgian build up, that we all know has been planned for three years.

Sorry mate but I'm not from the U.S.S.R. and they didn't tell me to say that.

Do you honestly believe that if the Georgian forces saw a massed tank armada on their border they would have started to shell Ossetia?

I've heard no complaints of a Russian build up from Georgia.

I don't think they were expecting the Russians to respond at all.

Saakashvili was stupid, sure, but he's not positively retarded.

They have UAVs hombre...remember when the Russians shot a Georgian UAV down?

Thats how they were keeping an eye on the Russians at the border.

And talk about flawed logic...the Georgian military was never massing at the border of Russia.

PS, the USSR doesn't exist anymore...didn't you get the memo

The border I was refering to is the South Ossetian border with Georgia. (The bit just north of Gori).

The UAV I assume you are refering to, wasn't shot down over the Ossetian border with Russia. It wasn't shot down over the Russian border at all.

It was shot down over the Abkhazia coast last April.

There is another name for UAVs, we call them artillery spotters. Given what happened in Ossetia, thank god the Russians shot it down.

[Dwarden 1125]

You understand that modern artillery has ranges of 10's of miles right?

That an artillery piece 20 miles outside of Ossetia can still fire on the the Ossetian capital.

That to militarily secure Ossetia targets outside of Ossetia must be destroyed.

@the guy earlier who described the Russian response as overkill, I see no sign of any overkill. When Russians do overkill, you will know about it.

They didn't just flatten Georgian cities.

They could have done.

If they had wanted to kill civilians or punish Georgia, they could have just annihilated the place.

They didn't have to just focus on the Georgian war machine.

The minimum Russian aim must have been to bring military security to Ossetia, and the other autonomous regions under their mandated protection.

It has been intresting to me to see, given the perfect excuse, exactly how much further they would be willing to go.

It seems to me that having achieved this, they have abruptly stopped, (so far).

They could have gone on to acheive a load of political scores, like, regime change or destroying my pipeline. They could capture the whole country anytime they please. (They still can and always could).

But they seem to have stopped.

In spite of all their detractors fears and claims, this operation seems to have been specicifically limited to peace keeping so far.

i know ranges where You got i don't ?

and somehow You missed the part where i never mentioned the size of perimeter

anyway ever heard about anti artilery radars ? size of truck/tank easily mobile, quite common stuff today

if there were shells landing on russian troops they would knew the source location in several minutes and then turn it toast by their own rocket barrage or airstrike ...

---

from people who are actually inside Georgia it's already known Russians were bombing various targets and non military stuff like cellular antenna arrays (sure communication is relatively valid target but so far to south ?) and so on deeply inside Georgia territory

---

btw. Spokesperson Georgia would be happy if they rise at max 1.5mil with mobilization of adults ... but if You count woman or old/under age then maybe ...

btw. did i understood that e.g. trader which buys for B and sell for C product which was made for A is exploiter ?

guess all the logistic, work and time invested to find customer to sell goods to is 'for free' in Your eyes ...

also ever heard about investment return ? what if that 'exploiter' you speak about took huge loyan in bank ?

what if he spent 20 years to get firm somewhere ?

i know lot of people who worked for 5 to 10 years w/o single holidays to reach some 'firm' size while feeding dozens of own employees ?

You gunna call them 'exploitee' who sweat working class right ?

did i mentioned the employees got right on holidays from law including paid free time , paid 'ill' time etc ? while the owner of the firm not ... (so much for unfair right ....)

oh did i mention that employer pays all possible for the crew too ...

if you got brain you would call biggest exploiters in world

1. states (all the $ wasted on politicians, clerks and usual black hole which all states are

2. banks

3. mafia

but Your example ... is awesomely absurd keep going it's fun to read ...

guess You love communism model of Warsaw pact / Comecon where fake value was made and fabs were manufacturing useless stuff on stock just to keep people busy and working

and if there was something valuable it was exchanged into Russia in return for something wortheless

(btw. i suggest You obtain some books about mafia in imperial Russia, USSR and modern Russian Federation too

[Spokesperson 0]

Baff1, you assume things you shouldn't.

Quote[/b] ]btw. did i understood that e.g. trader which buys for B and sell for C product which was made for A is exploiter ?

guess all the logistic, work and time invested to find customer to sell goods to is 'for free' in Your eyes ...

also ever heard about investment return ? what if that 'exploiter' you speak about took huge loyan in bank ?

what if he spent 20 years to get firm somewhere ?

i know lot of people who worked for 5 to 10 years w/o single holidays to reach some 'firm' size while feeding dozens of own employees ?

You gunna call them 'exploitee' who sweat working class right ?

did i mentioned the employees got right on holidays from law including paid free time , paid 'ill' time etc ? while the owner of the firm not ... (so much for unfair right ....)

oh did i mention that employer pays all possible for the crew too ...

if you got brain you would call biggest exploiters in world

1. states (all the $ wasted on politicians, clerks and usual black hole which all states are

2. banks

3. mafia

but Your example ... is awesomely absurd keep going it's fun to read ...

guess You love communism model of Warsaw pact / Comecon where fake value was made and fabs were manufacturing useless stuff on stock just to keep people busy and working

and if there was something valuable it was exchanged into Russia in return for something wortheless

(btw. i suggest You obtain some books about mafia in imperial Russia, USSR and modern Russian Federation too

No, I think you got my simplified explanation of "surplus value" wrong.

Here's a more detailed text about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value

Of course, banks, mafia are exploiters and states can be such.

Yes, I prefer any socialist system over any capitalist one. But naturally I don't see the "comecon" as a model for a new socialist bloc.

And obviously most people who lived in a socialist system, in a free country, don't agree with you.

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

So what? We ain't supposed to discuss or criticise?

Of course I'm not saying that. That's the point of the thread.

It's just bizzare that people keep trying to quantify how morally superior one country is to another when both are full of shitbags. Actions can certainly be right or wrong but let's not pretend that morality, compassion or some sense of noble humanitarianism ever guided anybody's national policy.

[AdmiralKarlDonuts 0]

Of course Georgians don't have to plan things. US-advisors can do that for them.

What do we have to gain by getting Georgia to kill Russian troops and start a shooting war?  

We gave them some uniforms, guns and body armor, told them how to march in a straight line, and in return we got some warm bodies for Iraq and their gratitude.  This was good for us because they have some oil running through their country, and we want some.

They, on the other hand, tried to assert control over this province of theirs and ended up fighting RUSSIA, for Christ's sake.  Hard to believe it's a 1960s-era proxy war started by US advisors for the sole purpose of pissing the Russians off.  We want their cooperation on other global issues so why antagonize them?

The whole backstory of the province is another issue, but them's the facts, so far as it's possible to know.

Utilitarianism, sir, utilitarianism!

Edit: unless of course the whole point is to bait Russia into this little exchange and do exactly what everybody's trying to do - paint them as maniacs bent on re-establishing their old empire. Heh, now that I really think about it, since it's not that much of a stretch to convince people that's what Russia is up to, it's not a bad plan.

[Baff1 0]

You understand that modern artillery has ranges of 10's of miles right?

That an artillery piece 20 miles outside of Ossetia can still fire on the the Ossetian capital.

That to militarily secure Ossetia targets outside of Ossetia must be destroyed.

@the guy earlier who described the Russian response as overkill, I see no sign of any overkill. When Russians do overkill, you will know about it.

They didn't just flatten Georgian cities.

They could have done.

If they had wanted to kill civilians or punish Georgia, they could have just annihilated the place.

They didn't have to just focus on the Georgian war machine.

The minimum Russian aim must have been to bring military security to Ossetia, and the other autonomous regions under their mandated protection.

It has been intresting to me to see, given the perfect excuse, exactly how much further they would be willing to go.

It seems to me that having achieved this, they have abruptly stopped, (so far).

They could have gone on to acheive a load of political scores, like, regime change or destroying my pipeline. They could capture the whole country anytime they please. (They still can and always could).

But they seem to have stopped.

In spite of all their detractors fears and claims, this operation seems to have been specicifically limited to peace keeping so far.

i know ranges where You got i don't ?

and somehow You missed the part where i never mentioned the size of perimeter

anyway ever heard about anti artilery radars ? size of truck/tank easily mobile, quite common stuff today

if there were shells landing on russian troops they would knew the source location in several minutes and then turn it toast by their own rocket barrage or airstrike ...

---

from people who are actually inside Georgia it's already known Russians were bombing various targets and non military stuff like cellular antenna arrays (sure communication is relatively valid target but so far to south ?) and so on deeply inside Georgia territory

I didn't see any pictures of anti artillery radar. Does this element of the Russian army have one then?

Not that waiting to be shot by artillery and then firing back is the worlds smartest tactic.

You seem to have some glamourised view of war, where the Russians are invulnerable and only the innocent can be killed.

What are you talking about "so far to the south" "so deeply in Georgian territory".

It's a tiny tiny country. If you went 50 miles to the south you'd be somewhere else.

You'd barely have time to turn your jet around.

There is no "far". There is no "deep".

[otk-member 0]

We win this war, but looks like we loose information (PR) war.

No photos of actual death and destruction are allowed on this forum. -- Franze

Photos from conflict.

18+!!!

[franze 196]

otk-member, photos or links to sites that contain explicit material are prohibited on this forum.

[otk-member 0]

otk-member, photos or links to sites that contain explicit material are prohibited on this forum.

Ok, i got it. Sorry.

For all of you, who want to understand a russian reaction - try to imagine, that Serbia attack Kosovo when US peacemakers was there.

And for you - all be a clear.

[billybob2002 0]

otk-member, photos or links to sites that contain explicit material are prohibited on this forum.

Ok, i got it. Sorry.

For all of you, who want to understand a russian reaction - try to imagine, that Serbia attack Kosovo when US peacemakers was there.

And for you - all be a clear.

Russia wasn't just "peacekeeping" in South Ossetia. The Russians were giving South Ossetia citizens Russian passports too. Doesn't that seem like an attempt to unofficial annex South Ossetia into Russia?

There are some key differences between Kosovo and South Osseita. And, I just pointed out one of them.

[MK1 0]

First of all, I'd appreciate if you didn't quote different people in same post without even mentioning who you're actually quoting.

Peacekeepers have all the right to "retaliate", i.e. counter-attack to weaken the enemy chances of advance.

I'm sure you'll find me something to prove this claim.

Quote[/b] ]The georgians started the invasion and you demand the russians to find a peaceful solution? What about self-defence?

Don't be such a warmonger. There's always a peaceful resolution that can be negotiated, but it's far easier to go in guns blazing.

Quote[/b] ]According to western military analysts it was a Georgian plane (it's the only plane type Georgia uses, SU-25). They also say that using lone attack planes and that kind of basic ammunition is an un-russian military behaviour. Some western journalist, non-BBC of course, think that it's possible that Georgians attacked that car and missed on purpose.

Once again you've got nothing to prove this with. What you claim makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would a Georgian plane attack Georgian positions after which it would attack Georgian civilians on the Georgian side.

Quote[/b] ]The aggressor has the guilt. If he's gone, no aggression. The defenders have no interests in conquering anything. They don't want a war. Or was it the guilt of the allies in WW2 that Nazi-Germany started a war?

WW2 is hardly qualifies as an example. It's not a modern day conflict, it's several countries in war that lasted for years. This Georgian conflict on the other hand was completely an internal affair which escalated into a war between two countries.

Oh, and there's the third side also, South Ossetia. I find it hard to believe that the partisans in SO just stod there to be shot at. Who knows, maybe they even went to be the first ones to fire their guns being unsatisfied with their state of affairs and all. It's not so black and white as you see it.

Quote[/b] ]But Russia has no interest in taking any parts of Georgia.

I wouldn't count on that. I'm sure Russia would love to get their hands on the oil line that goes through Georgia and an access to the Black Sea ports.

Quote[/b] ]Why would SO shell russian peacekeepers? They want their independence. Peace guarantees it. I think you misunderstand the reason for the conflict. It's not about the dead peacekeepers, it's about maintaining a status-quo in the region.

Dude, answer the question, it's not that difficult. The question was what if, not why. I haven't misunderstod anything, I'm only trying to ask you what would you find justifiable.

Quote[/b] ]Those of you who support Georgia are just subject to western bias, and brainwash through videogames like Operation Flashpoint or Ghost Recon and a load of pro-west anti-russian movies.

Haha, the is the best one yet! Now it's video games we got to blame. And what are you doing on this forum then? I don't support Georgia and I don't support Russia. They both made arses out of themselves in this conflict.

[MK1 0]

@the guy earlier who described the Russian response as overkill, I see no sign of any overkill. When Russians do overkill, you will know about it.

In spite of all their detractors fears and claims, this operation seems to have been specicifically limited to peace keeping so far.

Their reaction was overkill. They violated the sovereignty of a country and meddled with their internal affairs not to mention destroyed their infrastructure and civilian population. And all this without the jurisdiction of the UN and under Putin's orders to retaliate.

That's hardly peacekeeping.

[MehMan 0]

No forget it, nothing here.

[xawery 0]

BP shuts down Georgia pipelines

It seems Russia might be getting what it wants: the closing down of an alternative energy supplyroute to the West.

If we look past the rhetoric on both sides (even though there certainly may be some truth to the claims of cruelty on the part of Georgians), keeping the region destabilised is very much in Russia's favour. Not only because it prevents Georgia from joining NATO, but simply because it makes the region an unattractive investment. The Baku-Supsa and Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipelines are already a stretch - they snake through relatively West-friendly states, circumventing undesirables such us Iran at the cost of efficiency. Throw a bit of political instability into the mix and exploiting these routes becomes very precarious indeed.

The ironic thing is that Saakasjvili ordered the attack on SO because ending the territorial disputes was a requirement for joining NATO. Too bad he forgot that ending the disputes peacefully was the letter & spirit of the requirement!

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]What do we have to gain by getting Georgia to kill Russian troops and start a shooting war?

There have been multilple advisors from multiple countries not just the US. West and NATO has big interests in the area, including an oil pipeline, and naturally Georgia under the current president is pro-west, a kind of ally.

If Russia gives people passports it's up to the people to decide if they want them or not. Apparently most people wanted them.

Peacekeepers being able to counter-attack is just common sense and happens everywhere. They don't have weapons and commanders for nothing. Counter-attack is a defensive operation. Peacekeepers on the other side are not allowed to start any violence, first.

Quote[/b] ]Don't be such a warmonger. There's always a peaceful resolution that can be negotiated, but it's far easier to go in guns blazing.

Yea, nice. The USSR, poland or france should just stay and wait when the nazis invaded.

Quote[/b] ]Once again you've got nothing to prove this with. What you claim makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would a Georgian plane attack Georgian positions after which it would attack Georgian civilians on the Georgian side.

It didn't show any attacks of other civilians, just that lone unprofessional SU-25, the only plane Georgia uses. The road is no Georgian position, probably there were no Georgians at all there.

And why would russians attack civilians? They have no interests in killing of them. Georgia has.

Quote[/b] ]WW2 is hardly qualifies as an example. It's not a modern day conflict, it's several countries in war that lasted for years. This Georgian conflict on the other hand was completely an internal affair which escalated into a war between two countries.

What about Yugoslavia? The "defence"-alliance NATO bombed Belgrade and invaded the country. Then they overthrew an elected socialist government when there was an internal conflict. Hardly ten years ago. Sure it isn't the 21th century...

Russia had all right to be in Georgia, and when they attacked russian troops russia has the right to defend itself.

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and there's the third side also, South Ossetia. I find it hard to believe that the partisans in SO just stod there to be shot at. Who knows, maybe they even went to be the first ones to fire their guns being unsatisfied with their state of affairs and all. It's not so black and white as you see it

It's a fact from all sides that Georgia was the aggressor, they invaded S.O. .You're trying to rewrite history with wishful thinking.

Quote[/b] ]I wouldn't count on that. I'm sure Russia would love to get their hands on the oil line that goes through Georgia and an access to the Black Sea ports.

The oil line would only be moved to Armenia, and the pipes don't go through S. O. it's far south. Russia isn't interested in annexing anything. If they were they would've attacked Tblisi on the first day and taken it a few days later.

Quote[/b] ]Dude, answer the question, it's not that difficult. The question was what if, not why. I haven't misunderstod anything, I'm only trying to ask you what would you find justifiable.

Your question about SO. shelling Russian troops is absurd and for me it shows you have not understood the conflict.

Quote[/b] ]Haha, the is the best one yet! Now it's video games we got to blame. And what are you doing on this forum then? I don't support Georgia and I don't support Russia. They both made arses out of themselves in this conflict.

I don't like the OFP-story, but I like the rest of the game. In all western games, russians, north-koreans, aliens or monsters are the most common enemies. You think that's a coincidence or a reflection of what's in society?

Quote[/b] ]Their reaction was overkill. They violated the sovereignty of a country and meddled with their internal affairs not to mention destroyed their infrastructure and civilian population. And all this without the jurisdiction of the UN and under Putin's orders to retaliate.

That's hardly peacekeeping.

In an armed conflict there's no such thing as "overkill". Conflicts are supposed to be won swift. That's done if the forces are unbalanced. This is no mp strategy game.

Georgians committed genocide on russian inhabitants as well as other civilians, while killing russian peacekeepers on an international mission. Georgia attacked Russia on foreign territory. You want the russians to stand by and get killed while Georgians advance. No country would do that.

[Spokesperson 0]

If we look past the rhetoric on both sides (even though there certainly may be some truth to the claims of cruelty on the part of Georgians), keeping the region destabilised is very much in Russia's favour. Not only because it prevents Georgia from joining NATO, but simply because it makes the region an unattractive investment. The Baku-Supsa and Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipelines are already a stretch - they snake through relatively West-friendly states, circumventing undesirables such us Iran at the cost of efficiency. Throw a bit of political instability into the mix and exploiting these routes becomes very precarious indeed.

The ironic thing is that Saakasjvili ordered the attack on SO because ending the territorial disputes was a requirement for joining NATO. Too bad he forgot that ending the disputes peacefully was the letter & spirit of the requirement!

Here's what you don't see in western TV-channels. Have they even got journalists on the Russian side in ossetia? I know some have one journalist in North Ossetia and then 10 in Tblisi and Gori. Bias all the way.

CNN use footage of Tskhinvali ruins to cover Georgian report:

American Tourist interviewed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=dvw01ye8sfM

Tshinvali:

SKY-news reported that Georgia was winning the military war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUdu3H3iHvM&watch_response

"What happens is not just a war it's war crimes. George Bush and Saakashvili should answer to the crimes that have been committed. The killing of innocent people and the running over of graves and running over of tanks of women and children and throwing grenades into cellars to kill innocent people./.../Georgians are commiting genocide/.../America needs to stop supporting Georgia."

US troops in Georgia:

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56704

127 trainers and 1000 soldiers.

History of US funds to Georgia: http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28892

Some sources say that there are Russians tanks in Gori. But it seems like those tanks aren't russian. Chechen/ossetian militia led by a fugitive commander have moved in with 50 captured Georgian tanks and have started to plunder.