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Poland Missile Deal Goes Ahead

Western response to Ossetia?

Stupid US, fueling the conflict even more. There is absoluty no need for such a missle system and sorry my Polish friends, but I don't think Poland is that important for Iran that they're under danger (neither Germany is)

Its clearly aimed at Russia and I hope the next president will have the courage dismantling it again. Stupid Bush Administration!

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This US missile defence shield in Poland could make some very serious trouble. It is really needed against terrorist or another "Axis of evil"? imho more a bad poker game between US and Russia. Reminds me a bit of the Cuban Missile Crisis. I guess most people even in Poland don't feel safer with such an "defence shield" in neighbourhood.

Its not at all like the Cuban missile crisis. Then, Russia was installing offensive, nuclear weapons just miles off of our coast.

Here we are installing a weapon to DEFEND against a nuclear attack. I think that is significantly different.

It should also be noted that these defensive systems can't even touch the current generation of Russian ICBM technology.

Russia is simply paranoid. They want to control the CIS countries once again and resent the growing western (NATO / US) influence there. The fact that Russia still feels threatened by NATO speaks volumes to me.

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Quote[/b] ]They want to control the CIS countries once again and resent the growing western (NATO / US) influence there.
Quote[/b] ]Russia is simply paranoid.

Yeah, and so are you. wink_o.gif

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Baff1, your assumptions are both absurd and laughable.

But I found this interesting:

Quote[/b] ]Given a mask of anomynity, the maths teacher and the student both faceless behind the internet, the student thinks that his opinion that 1+1=3 has equal gravity to the maths teachers assertion that 1+1=2.

Yes. They have equal gravity. In your case the teacher isn't right because he is a teacher or because of his experience, but because 1+1=2 and not 3. Same thing about the student, he isn't wrong because he's a student, but because his arguments are wrong. It doesn't matter who says something, but why.

Using your arguments I could say that socialism and planned economy is right, because Einstein said so, he actually did, but it doesn't change the need for arguments.

That's called appeal to authority and it's a fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

I thought you who think you're "experienced" learn/learnt that at school?

Quote[/b] ]Here we are installing a weapon to DEFEND against a nuclear attack. I think that is significantly different.

It should also be noted that these defensive systems can't even touch the current generation of Russian ICBM technology.

Russia is simply paranoid. They want to control the CIS countries once again and resent the growing western (NATO / US) influence there.  The fact that Russia still feels threatened by NATO speaks volumes to me.

Defence is closely tied to offence. The anti-missile shield just gives your offensive weapons an advantage and disables the utility of Russian offensive/defensive weapons.

Do you really think that the missile system can't touch the russian ICBMs? Then why would they be worried? There would be no big deal at all. Don't assume they are stupid.

NATO was created as a "defensive" pact against the USSR and its allies. Then the socialists created the W. pact. When the W.-pact was dissolved the natural move would be to dissolve NATO, but instead NATO was used to -attack- Yugoslavia, unthinkable in the days of the USSR. Now it keeps expanding and growing closer to Russia. The sole reason for the existence of NATO is to combat Russia and soon also China.

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This US missile defence shield in Poland could make some very serious trouble. It is really needed against terrorist or another "Axis of evil"? imho more a bad poker game between US and Russia. Reminds me a bit of the Cuban Missile Crisis. I guess most people even in Poland don't feel safer with such an "defence shield" in neighbourhood.

Its not at all like the Cuban missile crisis. Then, Russia was installing offensive, nuclear weapons just miles off of our coast.

Here we are installing a weapon to DEFEND against a nuclear attack. I think that is significantly different.

It should also be noted that these defensive systems can't even touch the current generation of Russian ICBM technology.

Russia is simply paranoid. They want to control the CIS countries once again and resent the growing western (NATO / US) influence there.  The fact that Russia still feels threatened by NATO speaks volumes to me.

Honestly scubaman3D the idea that the missile system being defensive and therefore it shouldn't be considered as a threat has been argued and refuted on this thread (I believe) as well as in many forums around the internet that discussed this.

Dont get me wrong I am not blaming you for not reading but just giving you a heads up to look it up.

@ -snafu-

That was a great article, good find.

I still think the Russian intervention was a good thing (even with those outlined motives), that Israeli-style bombing that Saakashvili conducted had to be punished.

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Honestly scubaman3D the idea that the missile system being defensive and therefore it shouldn't be considered as a threat has been argued and refuted on this thread (I believe) as well as in many forums around the internet that discussed this.

oh, well if a bunch of chumps on the internet say it...then it must be true.

@NSXr

Are you saying I'm wrong - that Russia dosn't mind NATO expansion into CIS countries?

Russia obviously still views NATO countries as enemy long after the cold war ended. If Russia honestly feels threatened by NATO expansion to the east, then we can only assume that either Putin, his puppet Medvedev, and all of his ex-KGB buddies are paranoid, or Russia has ambitions that they feel NATO would be against - i.e. expansion westward.

Hell, Russia can hardly be considered a democratic country any longer. The Russians I have talked to on my trips there all feel disenfranchised by the massive corruption in the government. I don't even know if the EU ended up recognizing your election of the puppet as legit after all the controversy at your last election.

Really, for me to continue arguing in this thread is an exercise in futility. No matter what, there are those who will take the anti-American line, and thats fine.

What I really hope is that my family will still be able to immigrate to the US, despite the souring relationship between the US and Russia.

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Interesting FOX video.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=H8FajNEaxwc

not sure they will show it on TV.

And here's a similar one from the other side:

http://hotair.com/archive....nalists

So what? reporter is shot? its his fault, nobody forced him to be reporter in wartime... Reporters know the risk of beign near georgians.... nobody cares if you have "PRESS" on your body armor...

scubaman3D

I didn't really lived through cold war, but still fell that NATO is enemy... And i'm right, NATO is basically military organization, that was made to protect themselves from eastern counterpart Warsaw Pact Countries... But now NATO has no enemies, but yet they create enemies  nener.gif  Example IRaq, iraqis didn't really hate US, but after second Iraq war now many iraqis are willing to do terrorist attacks on US....

And also i don't care what side, US and Russian both have armies, and army is basically tool of the fat politicians that sit in office, and have no idea what war is... And we regular people have to choose which side is better, while in reality both sides are wrong, because wars never fixed anything... Did ireland separate from UK? No Did war in iraq and afghanistan fixed terrorism? No, it actually made more muslims to hate US... Did war in vietnam stop the communists? No.

And what happening is georgia is simple, Georgia wanted to fix problems with war, but they did it wrong, they got Russians pissed off during the process and now they have to pay the price.... And here i have to agree with actions of russia... If Saakashvilli wanted to be NATO so bad then why the hell start war with russia?  And Saakashvilli is one fat liar, georgia is not part of NATO or EU, but still he has those flag behind him!!!  And they have those flags on goverment buildings in georgia....

And don't bring up defensive systems here... because russian nukes in Cuba is defense too, so when WW3 starts and US launches nukes first, you can defend and bun entire US faster then they will burn USSR... in WW3 there is no defence, all still will die, no matter how much missile defence systems US has in europe, most nukes still will reach the target...

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Poland Missile Deal Goes Ahead

Western response to Ossetia?

Stupid US, fueling the conflict even more. There is absoluty no need for such a missle system and sorry my Polish friends, but I don't think Poland is that important for Iran that they're under danger (neither Germany is)

Its clearly aimed at Russia and I hope the next president will have the courage dismantling it again. Stupid Bush Administration!

You are correct, those systems is just a fuel for conflict... What US did, is just added new target for russian ICBMs... now when WW3 starts nuke will fly not only into US but Poland... And adding defenses near russia is basically agressive move, most of the time you build defenses up before you go into the war...

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funny is that Russia got anti missile shield covering whole country since 2006 smile_o.gif and theirs AM weapon systems are way more advanced than e.g. patriots

same goes to limited exchange ...

even that can't be covered by this 'shield' if new modernized holders and warheads are used by Russians ...

USSRsniper ... that area was already target due to it's longest landing ground , same goes for rest NATO airfields or all NATO AA radar sites and so on ...

---

anyway i'm going to ignore this thread because it's just waste of time especially trying to argue with someone who obviously got no damn idea he talks about

applies only till need to use mod powers to get rid of someone crossing the red line of forum rules ...

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Baff1, your assumptions are both absurd and laughable.

But I found this interesting:

Quote[/b] ]Given a mask of anomynity, the maths teacher and the student both faceless behind the internet, the student thinks that his opinion that 1+1=3 has equal gravity to the maths teachers assertion that 1+1=2.

Yes. They have equal gravity. In your case the teacher isn't right because he is a teacher or because of his experience, but because 1+1=2 and not 3. Same thing about the student, he isn't wrong because he's a student, but because his arguments are wrong. It doesn't matter who says something, but why.

The teacher is always right.

If you are looking for the teacher to be wrong, you will not learn.

The teacher knows by exprerience that he is right, while the student is trying to prove something that has already been proven.

Any idiot can argue with the teacher. That's how idiots remain idiots.

The student is not wrong because he is a student, the student is wrong because he failed to recognise he knew less than the teacher.

The reason why a teachers tells you something is simple. They are trying to help you understand. To pass on their knowledge.

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funny is that Russia got anti missile shield covering whole country since 2006 smile_o.gif and theirs AM weapon systems are way more advanced than e.g. patriots

same goes to limited exchange ...

even that can't be covered by this 'shield' if new modernized holders and warheads are used by Russians ...

USSRsniper ... that area was already target due to it's longest landing ground , same goes for rest NATO airfields or all NATO AA radar sites and so on ...

---

anyway i'm going to ignore this thread because it's just waste of time especially trying to argue with someone who obviously got no damn idea he talks about

applies only till need to use mod powers to get rid of someone crossing the red line of forum rules ...

I actaully think that although much less than fantastic, the U.S. patriot systems have been getting a lot of use.

I suspect they are as good as you can get currently.

Given the complexity in involved in the U.S. shooting down that falling satelitte last year.

All the telemetry and observatory tracking stations linked to the firing control of the ship.

The dependacne on calm seas etc.

I think it's fair imagine that current anti missile systems are pretty limited.

Although they will be improving.

The more range the radar and tracking system has the more chance they have of interception I expect.

I think that the Russian's should build their own in Cuba.

I also think that with the deal now signed (as if it ever wasn;t going to be) between Poland and the U.S., that any intrest Russia might have had in the containment of Iran's nuclear ambitions has now been removed.

I think this heralds a new round of nuclear proliferation.

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Russia should palce nukes in Cuba again.... Proper response for missile defence in poland...

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What's next? Restoring B-52 standby as an answer to the Tu-95 flights?

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cheeze :P thought the cold war was going cold enough when putin was in charge of russia but this is going a bit far fetched tounge2.gif

Doesn't all countries have some military patrols their borders?

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The teacher is always right.

If you are looking for the teacher to be wrong, you will not learn.

The teacher knows by exprerience that he is right, while the student is trying to prove something that has already been proven.

Any idiot can argue with the teacher. That's how idiots remain idiots.

The student is not wrong because he is a student, the student is wrong because he failed to recognise he knew less than the teacher.

The reason why a teachers tells you something is simple. They are trying to help you understand. To pass on their knowledge.

Good for the science and knowledge progress that people like Copernicus or Galileo weren't thinking like you.

A teacher is always right only about proved facts.

A teacher is not always right when his teaching are based only on theories.

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One of my 8th grade teachers told us that not always accept everything people say to you, to think some on your own and not take everything people say as true.

Imo thats things like that seperates the sheeps from the modern countries. tounge2.gif

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2 scubaman3d

Well, the only answer, that comes to my mind is blah-blah-blah. Really, it's not even worth to write a response on your post, that is stereotypic itself, though you claim that everyone in Russia are brainwashed by propaganda and obsessed by corruption. Really, man, don't think EU and US are the only islands of democracy and freedom.

You also told me, that we're products of our environment. Strange, but though you consider and understand this fact, you still can't run away from the stereotypes.

And once again - dogs are barking, caravan is moving.  wink_o.gif

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2 scubaman3d

... blah-blah-blah. Really, it's not even worth to write a response on your post, that is stereotypic itself,...

... Strange, but though you consider and understand this fact, you still can't run away from the stereotypes.

And once again - dogs are barking, caravan is moving. wink_o.gif

I'm not really sure what you meant by the dogs but listen, I'm not trying to take this personally and I'm certainly not trying to offend you. We're simply discussing ideas.

I'm sorry if I upset you but you're teetering on crossing the line here.

You're no longer addressing my ideas, but attacking my character. It would be better for us to stop now.

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There was no offence towards you - dogs'n'caravan phrase is Russian proverb, that means, that your voice do not have influence on anything. You may claim Russia whatever you like, but this really won't stop anyone.

About ideas...Well, you may discuss ideas, but you do not have any right to claim population of the whole country with words like "paranoid". Do you really think there're no russian scubamen thinking the same about US?

Oh, come on - maybe you should re-read the good post in this thread (don't remember who wrote it) about all those events. This is simply a power strugle between leading countries and there's no paranoia, but cold calculations behind all this. Both from your and our side. And US or Russia are both not the saints on this arena.

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I dont think he was aiming at Russians when he said Russia, but he was aiming at Putin and the rest of the staff in Kremlin. Like when people say that america pisses them off, it's not the people, they're everyday joes like you and me, but it's the goverment that made the wrong decisions and took the wrong actions. It's hard to be mad at the people, because if they chose wrong they usually feel the consequences of their vote, not just others.

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Quote[/b] ]The difference is that Russia doesn't station its rockets in Mexico

You´d be surprised to know how many russian nuclear warheads are very close to the US borders as we speak. It´s all beyond the surface.

What I don´t get about this rocket-shield is the fact that it´s only working if the world-map is laid plain in front of you from right to left, but what happens if the rockets in question do have a flightpath from right to left using the shortcut on the backside of the map ? crazy_o.gif

The US "defense" shield is none. End of story. It´s just another offensive system hidden in europe for the US.

Quote[/b] ]that everyone in Russia are brainwashed by propaganda

Still...there´s a point in all this keeping in mind that the mortality rate of journalists critical of the Kremlin power-games is exceptionary high in Russia these days....

Freedom of speech ? Hehe, sure... goodnight.gif

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Russia should palce nukes in Cuba again.... Proper response for missile defence in poland...

Laughable, extremely laughable.

That few Missiles that will be stationed for the Missile Defense System are no threat to the Russian Nuclear capability's.

Much to much unneeded propaganda is involved in there.

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Ukraine is prepared to open its missile defence network to cooperation with European and other foreign powers.

The Ukrainian foreign ministry said that the demise of a bilateral Russian-Ukrainian defence agreement earlier this year 'allows Ukraine to establish active cooperation with European countries'. Muhahahahaha!

Anyway Russia shouldn't worry about the West, the EU and Russia should be making efforts to get along better. Russia should be a little more wary about the 'Yellow Peril' (no racial offence intended).

What's the population of Russia, is it growing? More importantly what's the Russian population in Siberia, how many Chinese (with Chinese passports wink_o.gif ) are living in East Russia and how many are living along the Russian/Chinese border?

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