International Politics Thread

[Bavator 8]

to complicated for not native speaker

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/18/texas.plane.crash/index.html

'Pilot: 'I have just had enough'' :o

[vilas 477]

he had enough of what ? taxes ?

america has much lower taxes than Poland i suppose, America is liberal, so why the hell this guy was moaning , if he had money for plane (must be very rich to have plane) than he should not moan on US, if guy had plane (money) and made such thing - he had to be mental ill or Timothy McVeigh 2 (right-side cyco psychopat)

[MehMan 0]

he had enough of what ? taxes ?

america has much lower taxes than Poland i suppose, America is liberal, so why the hell this guy was moaning , if he had money for plane (must be very rich to have plane) than he should not moan on US, if guy had plane (money) and made such thing - he had to be mental ill or Timothy McVeigh 2 (right-side cyco psychopat)

You are joking right?

[vilas 477]

what are taxes in US ? percent ?

in Poland if you earn 3000 "gross" on contract, to hand you get 2230 , so all taxes takes 770 of 3000

if you earn 3000 in US , how much you get to hand after taxes ? cost for company is as i remember 3300 (when you have 3000 on contract)

so finally "cost" of employee for employer and what you get to hand is one third

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[MehMan 0]

The point is that the consant repetition with the IRS was what drove him crazy.

No clue on what taxes are in the US, but in Slovenia you get about 1600 out of 3000 gross.

[vilas 477]

consant repetition with the IRS was what drove him crazy.

and i know rapist whom prison drove crazy

i know paedophile which droven crazy cause couldn't hurt anymore

i know thief droven crazy cause cannot steal and etc.

there are regulations and laws and if someone thinks he is over others - than he must be made to listen ,

maybe this guy was fraud and was droven crazy cause was caught ?

i know one debtor who is droven crazy too, i chase guy who owes my money and he thinks that giving back money is disgrace to him

cause such guy not accept fact that debts must be payed

my friends also know few guys who have philosophy "to borrow, to not give back"

so for me it is not argument that someone was droven crazy cause must pay taxes

we not live in african bush, state must function (army to protect, firefighters, hospitals, ambulance, police, electrical stations, fighting natural disasters as flood etc. it all works from taxes money)

we live in society and we should cooperate as society, if someone is anti-cooperation, well...

but i don't know details about this guy

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[lecholas 2]

I'm supprised to agree with vilas in many points (mostly about the facts, but not about causes and the recipe to change them). Eg. the 'thick (bold) line' was a mistake (both in pragmatic and moral respects).

Concerning the concessions for many, many parts of the economical activity. Of course the concessions are needed to 'guarantee the high level of services and products' and only the best businessmen should receive them. Because the free market supposedly is not able to produce high level of services and products. It must be controlled by the state. The effects are like vilas described. Concessions are given to families, friends and those who will pay the bribe.

The law in Poland IS sick, and it gives a victim less rights than a criminal. It's partly because of pursuing Western European standards of treating crminals (in a humanistic way - like in the Sweeden for example), partly because of the (I'm quite convinced it is) malicious intentions (or sometimes their stupidity - like with the projected law forbiding opening the shops on Sundays) of many Polish politics after 89, partly because of the fact that its modified and modifed all over again the old law from before 89.

The people are apathetic and such cases as vilas and topas described have place too frequently. I've also have a friend who was beaten in the bus because tried to defend an old lady attacked by a few young criminals. He was almost beaten to death and nobody in the bus helped him. It partly may be because people 'care only about money'. Maybe in some cases. But much of it is because of a phenomenon that some sociologists call 'homo sovieticus' (it's a sociological term, not a racial one as vilas tried to interpret it in some other thread). Many people in Poland still have an attitude 'let's not get into trouble', they don't trust it's own state or the Police. Before the 89 it was almost a virtue to cheat the Polish state. People didn't recognized it as 'their own' state. And the repercussions of such attitudes are still here. Almost everyone tries to cheat on taxes (or even if he doesn't do it, usually he does it not knowing he does; the Polish tax laws are insane eg. if a parent gives to his children or family more than 9637zl during 5 years, it can be money, food or presens, he has to write a form to a tax office to cancel the taxing that because of the family relations. nobody does it. if you give your girlfriend - she's not your relative - a presen she should pay an income tax. if you give a hitchhiker a lift he should tax his income. The laws arent executed by the government, but they are there, and if a civil servant is in mood he can bring down almost anyone with them).

Another thing is waiting for the state to do everything. I'm observing now how my neighbours wait for the city services to clear the town from the snow. They won't take a shovel and clear an exit from their own backyard because 'the city should do it'. It doesn't matter that it would take them a 30minutes. They'd rather don't use their cars for a week or so. And the same thing is with the Police. Many people think. I'm not responsible for maintaining the law and order. The Police is. I won't do their job.

[vilas 477]

"homo sovieticus" and "we are too socialistic" is both bullshit

it comes from "corrupted" law system (i know what i am talking cause i have very close to law system since 2002/2003) and i know some policeman, court workers etc.

it comes from corruption and from politicians (with very dirty deeds in their hidden life) that state law regulations

corruption comes from untouchability of those and "corporations", cause you won't punish judge, prosecutor, member of parliament, advocate even if you will have very dirty documents on them, case will be rejected, discontinued, prooves will be "not believable" etc.

it is caused by "familiy" structure

concessions work everywhere in "healthy food" "doctors" "safety products" for example, but should not work in "lawyers" business, because of it we have 9 times less advocates than west and exam is passed when "it is somebody's son/daughter", not best win, but sometimes stupid "daughter, son, cusine" who was partying all studies

Poles not identify with state is true, but reason is : "state cheated us again" "old opositionists changed ideas after being voted" "policeman can't do anything, cause judge will dismiss" etc.

i chased burglar, cheater, signature falser , someone saying he is other person etc. and ... and.. nothing, instead of this i get in costs and nerves

it is not "human nature" false, it is "helpless people lost hope" that Poles don't react, cause they know what can happen when advocate of criminal will get in court (not secret) your personal data including adress, we in Poland have very very poor witness protection

i also have lower and lower identification with this state since i started work for it , cause i see how law looks, i know few people whose cases i had sometimes to dismiss last year against my moral view and logic and only thing i could told them "sir, i agree with you but i can't make decision you want" twice last months

those people lost in courts, although they were right but... our law regulation is sick or simply wrong

and those greed young criminals described here and in previous - are not any "homo sovieticus" stupid term, they are money lovers, money virtue believers

law looks like it looks cause it is made by criminals itself (remind how many Polish politicians are in scandals, frauds or even in prisons) or their advocates who make law for clients

guy who writes codex project in Ministry , after this job goes to another and for example defends mafia... cause he work 4 hours in Ministry and later in court as advocate < most basic example

i know example of one famous lawyer (from SLD) which was trying to convince my relative to give false alibi to one criminal, guy was very famous advocate

we have many such examples, many names

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[lecholas 2]

and those greed young criminals described here and in previous - are not any "homo sovieticus" stupid term, they are money lovers, money virtue believers

I didn't say THEY are 'homo sovieticus'. I wouldn't say that, because they are acting. Homo sovieticus are apathetic people who won't act on their own and wait for someone else (e.g. the state) to make what they should do. For example pretending that they don't see that someone is being robbed not to have any troubles.

law looks like it looks cause it is made by criminals itself (remind how many Polish politicians are in scandals, frauds or even in prisons) or their advocates who make law for clients

guy who writes codex project in Ministry , after this job goes to another and for example defends mafia... cause he work 4 hours in Ministry and later in court as advocate < most basic example

I generally agree with that. It's the one (maybe even the most important one, I don't know) of the reasons we have such law.

You're partially right that many people don't think it's their state because they had hope that changing the system in 89 will be enough and we will at once have the Western life standards. And it occured that the state after 89 is also not a state for a ordinary people but for people with connections (see for example Roman Kluska).

But it is also true that the Polish society was very seriously damaged by the 1939 - 1989 period. The war, the stalinistic repressions killed a lot of active part of the Polish society (including university professors, military technicians etc.) and then a state which did not promote creativity, thinking for yourself, but conformism and obedience. See for example Polish science. The most of professors on universities had to be marxists-leninists and that was a deciding factor in their cariere, not their competence. (with a bit of exception when it comes to technical universities, where competence had a bit more of importantce).

Look at pre 89 attitude to work. You know the phrase 'Wether you stand or lay, you are bound to be payed' ("czy się siedzi, czy się leży tysiąc złotych się należy"). It was like that everywhere. And after the 89 private businessmen required from workers to really work in work!

Think for it. When the system changed, the Polish society wasn't renewed as with a touch of a magic wand.

[vilas 477]

Olewnik case is best example here too, well known in TV, cause guy is rich, otherwise you wouldn't read about it, and we have many Olewniks in Poland

and law process looks following:

people working (legal division) in ministry prepare somekind of project , it goes to parliament (in case of "ustawa" or prime minister/minister in case of "rozporzÄ…dzenie"), parliament changes it and votes , and in parliament ... you know who sits

if it is "rozporzadzenie" than it never leaves ministry building cause Minister is empowered to sign it

konstytucja > ustawy ( including kodeks)> rozporzadzenia i rozporzadzenia wykonawcze do ustaw > okólniki itp itd

if you vote for liberals aka PO, you should look at pre-previous minister of justice - also advocate no need to tell more , not usual man clerk professional, but someone who had dirty immoral cases , second from liberal SLD Kalish , Widacki and many many liberal parties names which broke PL and leaded us to this situation with this Policeman above or Olewniks etc.

the best minister of justice was Ziobro, he wanted electronical register for cases (now you can say A and you may find B in protocol) next minister Cwiakalski immediately changed this , so even if someone threaten you in court cases - you have no proof (you cannot record yourself, you'll be punished for this)

damaged by the 1939 - 1989 period

bla, bla, bla - people were full of hopes in 1989, people like my mother, uncle - Solidarity trade-union activists, who later heard "bold line" and "we will be capitalistic, you must work more and compete"

'Wether you stand or lay, you are bound to be payed'

sides ago you wrote about lack of paper, washing machines, vacuum cleaners

but you ignore connection between lack of goods and people's work style ?

cats, dogs, frogs are not manufacturing vacuum cleaners

and now we have opposite - you have to work too hard and too long and you may have bad luck and not be paid or cheated on payment too :/

people like my parents who were active fought for being "second Sweden", while Walesa wanted turned us to "second Japan" - which he said (where people are like robots, don't have free time, work, work, work, work, work, work.. and work instead of having fun, enjoy, have hobby, read books, watching movies etc. )

The most of professors on universities had to be marxists-leninists

heh, maybe in 1950, but not in 1975, cause we had technical progress , look at USSR, MiG29 not appeared from idiots, idiots not made first cosmic flight in 1957, idiots not made reactive armour on tanks :)

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[lecholas 2]

heh, maybe in 1950, but not in 1975, cause we had technical progress , look at USSR, MiG29 not appeared from idiots, idiots not made first cosmic flight in 1957, idiots not made reactive armour on tanks :)

USSR != Poland; military technic != civil technic; The USSR collapsed because it wanted to have so good military to be a match for the USA. So they had to move resources (they could do this because of centralised ecconomy), including human resources (i.e. inventors and technicans) to military sector. That's why you can compare US and USSR military vehicles but you cant compare trabant and mercedes, polonez and other western cars, 'frania' washing machine whith western ones etc.

Also don't underestimate the Soviet industrial espionage.

sides ago you wrote about lack of paper, washing machines, vacuum cleaners

but you ignore connection between lack of goods and people's work style ?

No, I don't ignore it. In fact I emphasise it.

It goes like this:

When a factory is owned by a state there's no real 'owner' (the evil, egoistic capitalist) who would look after the factory to make it efficient and profitable. If noone cares for the factory, people don't work as they should. So there's no goods (the factories are inefficient).

This is one of the main mechanisms in which communism/socialism is ineffecient.

people like my parents who were active fought for being "second Sweden"

Sorry, Poland doesn't have so much natural resources. I regret it too. Also compare what was the status of Poland and Sweeden in the end of WWII. We didn't start from the same level.

Edited February 19, 2010 by lecholas

[Takko 10]

People have to become criminal, to realize,

that these people deserve the same respect as others.

[vilas 477]

People have to become criminal, to realize,

that these people deserve the same respect as others.

what people deserve respect ? for me criminal is shit to kill no more, or like in China - source of liver, heart, stomach etc. not a human

criminal doesn't deserve anything more than bullet in guts

they are greed f*** that want to party for others hard work, 4 cars, playing in casino, gold necklaces, BMW (car connected with bandit culture) , gold clock on hands etc. etc .

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

what people deserve respect ? for me criminal is shit to kill no more, or like in China - source of liver, heart, stomach etc. not a human

criminal doesn't deserve anything more than bullet in guts

they are greed f*** that want to party for others hard work, 4 cars, playing in casino, gold necklaces, BMW (car connected with bandit culture) , gold clock on hands etc. etc .

Jeez, there are more types of criminals than murderers. I mean, aren't you the guy who said you think about killing people who have more cars than you do?

[vilas 477]

cause mostly cheaters, frauds, criminals, bitches, politicians, lawyers are rich in my country (and small percent of hard working business, but very small percent of people) and i was saying it as "greed make wars" example discussion (about greed factor in human )

usual people work hard for ... 2000 PLN (1400 to hand, 350 Euro), only some have 20 000

pleace divide 2 killings - for "justice for people" (movements in history when people had enough of inequality , poverty, oppression etc. including wars, revolutions, uprisings ) and "for money and greed" (criminals)

just like you cannot compare justified revenge from attacking someone first, death is not equal death,

and now there is funeral of this Policeman, today 15 years old girl was killed by 2 17years old, those 2 pieces of shit... won't get high punishment cause "they are too young",

and politicians shits dare to come to funeral of policeman and say speeches

they killed him - politicians and their "law"

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

I'm sorry for the situation in Poland, I really am. The US is slowly getting to the point where victims are made into criminals and criminals are made into victims.

Doesn't it piss you off when politicians use someonelse's death as a means of making themselves look better? For you, it's that policeman. For us, it's dead soldiers and whatnot. It really makes me mad.

[vilas 477]

talking about international

i was told in childhood that people in Sweden are so honest that : "you can park your car not closed, you will be back in month and you will have it still there and even washed"

is it truth ? whole my childhood from 2 friends of my mother, traveling then to Sweden , i heard such stories, i wonder is it true

For us, it's dead soldiers and whatnot. It really makes me mad.

but this soldier is dead cause your ex president (thanx to US for voting for democrat) send them there for oil, they are killing civilians there ( 200 000 Iraquis + cancers from Uranium ammo)

from my point of view such soldier is occupant opressor pay-killer, cause he is not on his homeland territory (i justify defending wars and wars with genocide leaders as Hitler ), never "economic interests" wars, never

Iraq is not 52-nd state , it is "behind border"

for me "economy" cannot be reason for kill someone,

reason for killing someone is "he rape children, he steal goods, he gas murder milions of others, he invaded other land" etc.

but invading county cause they have second oil source in world and now trying to find reason to attack country with third oil sources is not "good"

shame that soldier not see = he is lied by propaganda of politicians who wanna use him , use his life for their interests

if i was now in Polish army , i would resign from any "behind my border" mission, just like this guy who NOT wanted go and shoot 13 in base

soldiers should have right to say "i will defend america, but i won't put my boot behind my territory" - it should be right of US soldier

foreign US politics was since 1950 very aggressive and invading

and of course politicians use young naive teenagers, it is sad

when they are grown, have own children - they value LIFE virtue

cause LIFE is only one, no matter if it guy in turban with his goat in A-stan or it is other man, every man wants his "territory to be his"

like i am very friendly to other nations - until their soldier will not put step on my land, they are friends

if their soldier put boot on my ground - he becomes enemy , for me it is simple :)

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

is it truth ? whole my childhood from 2 friends of my mother, traveling then to Sweden , i heard such stories, i wonder is it true

Generalizations, typically, are not true. They can be grounded in truth, but they are never going to be true all the time.

I'm not going to debate war politics with you because I don't think you have a good enough grasp on our situation, just as I don't have a grasp on your situation.

[topas 1]

17years old, [...] pieces of shit... won't get high punishment cause "they are too young

read about a 14 year old kid with quite of a criminal past behind him already...

he becomes accquainted to kids with rich parents; and when invited to their homes he and his 'gang' rob the place..

his recent crime was theft of 60.000 [!] PLN that someone's parents kept in home.. their kid was stupid enough to tell..

Anyway; kid got arrested after a while.. He and his gang couldn't keep a low profile and started spending the money in all possible ways; by getting to school by taxis; ordering pizzas for the whole class during breaks; buying some really expensive mobile phones, watches and trendy outfits to their girls..

Kid got a sentence; despite being young - he was supposed to spend his years in a correctional facility; until he'd be 18

But..

There's no room in that facility... next opening will be maybe fall; or even next winter...

So, kid is on the loose again; police keeps arresting him over and over again for some small thefts; and keeps releasing him as soon as they make a note in their logs.. what else are the poor guys supposed to do...

And Vilas is right; it's the law that binds hands of the police; shuts the mouth of the people who rather look away than act; which results in a silent acceptance of crime... And it is really disgusting to see those politicians appearing at funerals... giving away medals and such..

while there's no politicians around to aid; provide normal regulations; safety and modern equipment to the police or our army taking part in abroad missions - there always will be plenty of them to pose in front of cameras; giving medals or saluting the half-raised national flag....

[vilas 477]

shame that we live in such country, i hope one day some Charles Bronson will appear here :)

me - personal - since 2005 chase guy who robbed my r.i.p. uncle (he lived alone, no wife, no kids, lonely old man) house

uncle was dead, police taped doors

guy came in one day , taken things

next day people called police, they caught him inside

he shouted "my lawyer will boil you" and etc.

after some troubles he was free

and i was told "sir, if you cannot EXACTLY tell what things were stolen, we can't sue guy"

i say wtf ? "sir, if you don't know exactly what type of DVD, TV, how much money left in flat etc. we have no exact list ... bla bla bla" cause "sir you visited him few years ago in 2002/2003 last time, so you not know what exactly he had in flat, maybe he had nothing", yeah... guy with 25 000 on bank account lived without DVD, TV, HIFI, etc.

house was so cleaned that walls, bed, shelves , freezer left and clothes of course

guy has good lawyer with connections, it was July 2005

he laughed at the case in my face, previous judge punished him for "defacing court" he told "you will fucking see"

next case = new judge appears, and ... and.. she shouted on my and my mother that we will get 1000 PLN fee for disturbing in process , case was dismissed , muth*** is free and i lost 2 000 PLN (500 EU) on lawyers advices for papers

and i remember (living in Praga) one case when someone had wheels (aluminium wheels) stolen from car

he "knew someone", he came with lad to local lad, shown "something" and said "i go to watch movie in cinema, later i go to shopping, when i will be back, i wanna see my wheels", he watched movie, he eaten pizza with girl, he done shopping and ... car was like day before with wheels, they even washed it (i wanted say something "positive") and people changed completly

i remember secondary school , college "you live in praga? i would need CD-player for my car" "hi, i would need aluminum wheels" - i really hated how people dare to ask like that :( lack of morality, or "Wolumen" issue - place where you could buy stolen things in past

ooooo and another story, my friend was cheated on E-Bay (Polish Ebay ALLEGRO.PL), he payed and get... brick

he had photos , cause he was afraid and demanded open package in post office with postoffice worker

protocol was made in post and... case was dismissed :(

first question of policeman "sir, you bought by internet, do you have legal Windows??" <<<< i am not cheating, he really was asked about his PC, not about fraud on Allegro ;(

i know case of (as i remember guy who makes data bases, SQL such like), he found child porn on website, downloaded images and posted to Police to report proof and ... his PC was taken "for anylysis of IP, history of web activity, etc." , guy CANNOT WORK and earn money for life (PC is his tool for earn money, all client database, projects , SQL, MsAcces) cause .... "PC will be given back when investigation will be finished, it may take some months more" - guy has no job for 4-th month now

i remember my ex-friend (ex after this) - i reported to my fellow policeman website when man jacking off on dead cat (filming HD camera), he killed cat, jacking off on cuted head - and i reported it and ... "Peter, i am not world saver" , now he is not my friend anymore

Edited February 19, 2010 by vilas

[NoRailgunner 0]

vilas

If you are not happy change something!

Did you search for a country where you can stay in better living condtions? Why are you not moving/emigrating? How much time you like to spend in anger? Its not the best way to live and not good for your health.

Dont wait till politics and governments change - you will get older much faster!

[topas 1]

Please

No feeding of animals

and

No ecouraging for Vilas to start a Poland-wide rebellion against the world-order

:D:D:D

-----------

anyway; music is always good for anger [at least in my case]

good old favorite track that helps to chill-out after a hard day or when I'm pissed off... nothing beats the classical instrumental music..

no, on a second thought when I'm pissed off I listen to

Edited February 19, 2010 by topas

[riffleman 20]

Libyan leader Maummar Gaddafi has declared a jihad against switzerlan in a worsening diplomatic row between the two countries.

He criticised a recent swiss vote against the building of minarets.

[vilas 477]

i know Swiss and Minaret issue, what i can say ... i always hated all religions, all priests, all gods

like Slayer in one song "Religion is Hate, Religion is Fear, Religion is War"

thats why i atheist and i believe countries like USSR and east block where religion was smashed - were best, also atheistic Sweden , Czech , France...

it is all because someone thinks "his god" is better than "their god"

concerning Muslims agressive way of behavior against our civilization... in past we were making crusades against them , "baptize, Christianize" etc.

people should realize that they live only once, so they should act easy, peacefully, enjoy life, sex, travel, hobby, music - not wars and "die for god and afterlife"

this problem is impossible to solve, impossible cause in middle east region there is war of interests, Israel issue - which boils Arab blood

and solution aka "put 100 atomic bombs to kill all Arabs" is impossible because of political reasons (although it could be best way if someone is religion obsessed and believes that his god allows him to change other man life) and all those Helsinki Foundation, although could be best if someone thinks he will be putting his Minarets here

what i wanna say

i am very peaceful man - until someone tries to change my house furniture or steps here uninvited

thats why when i criticize US for pushing "soldiers for oil" somewhere, i also hate when "Minarets appear 5 000 miles away from Mekka"

my home - my rules , my home - not yours neither his nor her

Switzerland belongs to Swiss people and ... not to Muslims

but Kadaffi always was trouble starter since 70s, he cooperated also terrorist attack on Lockerbie town as i remember

Edited February 27, 2010 by vilas

[riffleman 20]

Libyan leader Maummar Gaddafi got very much angered that time when he announce this one