International Politics Thread

[baddo 0]

In the socialism the number of parasites increases significantly compared to capitalism. There are far better chances for parasites in a socialistic system. I have actually seen plenty of evidence of this, but what does it matter, it is just the things I saw and so it doesn't count here or does it.

Also, Spokesperson, you are time after time writing the same flawed math here as proof how the capitalism rips people off. It is wrong. Every time you write about it, you ignore what the business owner must pay in order to have the business and to keep it running. You don't seem to understand the realities of how the businesses work. Without the business owner there would be no business. It is an absurd, laughable idea that all people in your community will just happily get together and form whatever businesses are needed. It just doesn't happen. You can try to force it, like they did in USSR, and where did that get them.

You don't seem to value the freedom of an individual much. You would prefer people to be tied into a system such as the one at USSR, instead of letting them make their own chances and innovations. You would prefer to take their motivation away by putting them to manufacture something like a million rubber boots a year, just because "the community" (=some dictator at the top) thinks that the million rubber boots are what they need.

And you like to play it down when someone mentions Stalin and the horrors he caused to many. That right there is an insult to millions of people who were oppressed and directly or indirectly murdered by Stalin. He is right up there with Hitler when we look at the worst criminals of the 20th century. It really makes me sick that we have people here who can not see that. It makes me even more sick when we have someone here who talks like it was necessary for Stalin to be such an insane dictator, a murderer. Don't you ever condemn Hitler if you like Stalin so much, they are in the same lunatic category so you should be proud of them both.

[igor drukov 0]

I support the USSR.

Where are you from? When were you born? Sorry for not reading the entire topic, but upon reading this, I had to rub my eyes to make sure I was awake, not to mention sober.

[MontyVCB 0]

I support the USSR.

Where are you from? When were you born? Sorry for not reading the entire topic, but upon reading this, I had to rub my eyes to make sure I was awake, not to mention sober.

I'd like to add to this. alot of people having whining about the USSR and how they miss the 'old ways'. I'd be willing to be alot of the people here were not born or too young to remember what it was like to live in Communist Russia. You can only learn so much from reading books and watching newsreels. The Russians are just as guilty a spouting propaganda as the West were. Unless you've actually lived during that time, you really have no clue to what it was like.

[Second 0]

I support the USSR.

Where are you from? When were you born? Sorry for not reading the entire topic, but upon reading this, I had to rub my eyes to make sure I was awake, not to mention sober.

I'd like to add to this. alot of people having whining about the USSR and how they miss the 'old ways'. I'd be willing to be alot of the people here were not born or too young to remember what it was like to live in Communist Russia.

Many former citizens of East-german does wish that it wouldn't have collapsed. You see: living standarts gone bad after that.

I remember what kind picture i've had about Russian (as it western neibourg) for last 20 years: Poor. Not the same it was earlier.

I've heard what some people behind border say. They say that time during Sovet union were good times compared to current.

I dont' understand how someone can think that (some) people doesn't wish Soviet union to come back? Some blind westerns who thinks that revolution is just mild thing which doesn't have effect on humans' lives? Russia was (maybe still is) main example of capitalism gone very bad.

[kavoven 4]

We have a saying for former GDR people wishing their "gold old GDR" back.

Sozialschmarotzer.

It means someone who is just taking the money from the state but isn't doing anything for it.

Most of those people who say that the GDR was better never learned how to work in their lives. The state did everything for them and now they're messed up because they can't get their life straight.

I don't know how many billions former West-German people paid for former GDR people, but I hate those who are still whining.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]As long as ruling class makes sure that i'm happy i do not wish to revolt (=escape my pasture). I'm quite happy now.

But you could have it a lot better, if nobody got richer on your expense.

If you got a job, you could get richer at your own expense.

Here is a concept you may like to ignore.

Mutually beneficial.

Here is another one.

Symbiosis.

And another.

Co-operative.

When I get richer, the people around me get richer too.

There are just as many leeches at the bottom of society as there are at the top.

Many more in fact.

You may not want other people to benefit from your endeavours but that's what being a productive member of society is all about.

So students get richer on our bill.

Babies get health care. How could a baby pay for itself?

OAP's get bus passes and pensions*.

We all muck in to make the world a better place.

Yes, we would be richer if we abandoned them.

But we can afford to care.

(*)Pensions make up 99% of the worlds investment, it's not just some rich toff in his mansion, it's the average worker saving for his old age or the already retired.

If you had ever had a job, you would already know this.

Class War is just the excuse you give yourself to live a parasitic lifestyle.

As long as rich people are evil robbers stealing from you, then doing nothing with your life is the best way to counter them.

It's clear from your description of yourself that you are lacking self respect.

I'm not urging you to get a job because I need a share of your income.

It is because it will change your life. You will be able to waste time justifying all the things you do to futher your society instead of feeling that you are of no personal intrest or consequence to the world.

[NoRailgunner 0]

k@voven how old are you? Its sad to see that some germans even now build up or have such stupid prejudice (with zero knowledge) against each other like this:

Quote[/b] ]Most of those people who say that the GDR was better never learned how to work in their lives. The state did everything for them and now they're messed up because they can't get their life straight.

Grow up and stop beeing a parrot from those west vs. east ranter!

Next time open up your eyes if you travel through germany. In every country you have regions with good and bad economy. If people are poor they simply can't move into better regions. Its a vicious circle and few people dont see chances to break out. So they start to romanticize bygone time...

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]In the socialism the number of parasites increases significantly compared to capitalism. There are far better chances for parasites in a socialistic system. I have actually seen plenty of evidence of this, but what does it matter, it is just the things I saw and so it doesn't count here or does it.

What kind of parasites? You can't just state something without backing it up with arguments.

Quote[/b] ]Also, Spokesperson, you are time after time writing the same flawed math here as proof how the capitalism rips people off. It is wrong. Every time you write about it, you ignore what the business owner must pay in order to have the business and to keep it running. You don't seem to understand the realities of how the businesses work. Without the business owner there would be no business. It is an absurd, laughable idea that all people in your community will just happily get together and form whatever businesses are needed. It just doesn't happen. You can try to force it, like they did in USSR, and where did that get them.

It's very correct, but I presented it in a simplified manner, a full explanation is a few pages long. I don't ignore the fact that a business costs. Of course it does. People need salaries etc, but it's those people that pay for everything, including their salaries. Only work added to a product makes it more valuable. The owner, can sometimes have an active organizing role in a company, yes that's work, but that doesn't entitle him to exploit other people.

There's no such thing as a single business owner when it comes to large scale economics. Companies are owned by many share-owners who don't have any active role in the companies at all. They just sit and wait for their money. They profit from the work from other people.

Of course you can't have capitalism without capitalists. I'm not trying to abolish the capitalists, but the system they are profiting from. Yes, look at the USSR and where a planned economy took them. Or look at Cuba. But naturally, a planned economy can get even better. All companies are planned economies. A country can be planned too, but it requires a lot more math, and a lot more computer-power than was available in the USSR, and in the world at that time. The Russian economy is still not as strong as the USSR one was at the end. There's also a huge difference in oil prices.

Quote[/b] ]You don't seem to value the freedom of an individual much. You would prefer people to be tied into a system such as the one at USSR, instead of letting them make their own chances and innovations. You would prefer to take their motivation away by putting them to manufacture something like a million rubber boots a year, just because "the community" (=some dictator at the top) thinks that the million rubber boots are what they need.

And you like to play it down when someone mentions Stalin and the horrors he caused to many. That right there is an insult to millions of people who were oppressed and directly or indirectly murdered by Stalin. He is right up there with Hitler when we look at the worst criminals of the 20th century. It really makes me sick that we have people here who can not see that. It makes me even more sick when we have someone here who talks like it was necessary for Stalin to be such an insane dictator, a murderer. Don't you ever condemn Hitler if you like Stalin so much, they are in the same lunatic category so you should be proud of them both.

I value freedom very much. But I don't see any of it in this society. And of course your ideas about rubber boots and the dictator is rubbish.

Stalin is definitely no criminal. He was one of the most successful politicians of the last century. People loved him and a majority of the Russian people still do. In the west you learn something completely different about him. Open your eyes instead of repeating hollywood bullshit. And it's quite evident why I don't like Hitler. Or do you really think there's no difference between them?

When the USSR was dissolved, all the power and privileges of the working class were dissolved. Capitalists gained ground and now they have the upper hand in the class-struggle. They won the battle, but not the war. In some countries the capitalists have to introduce social reforms just to keep the country stable and their wage-slaves in check. In Russia, nationalism and religion are used to unite people behind the ruling class instead of social reform. It's harder to see how things work through the lens of alcohol, religion or nationalism. When those aren't enough, when people have grown tired of religion and all the wars caused by nationalism and have no money for alcohol, there's still a card to play for the capitalists. They can choose to support nazis and racists. But that's at a high cost. Nazism is the highest stage of capitalism, when the capitalists got all the power. And when the slaves are forced to cooperate with the slave owners.

That's mutually beneficial, or symbiosis as Baff1 wants to call it. Of course the upper class wants to deny the existence of classes, they want all people to cooperate in harmony with some people at the top, and the rest below. What have the rulers got to lose? A lot.

Quote[/b] ]When I get richer, the people around me get richer too.

Of course. The more you make/force others produce for you (with the police protecting you), the more things there are to buy for lower prices. Slaves who work a lot and make their owners richer, also get more back, so they can be content and make no revolution.

Quote[/b] ](*)Pensions make up 99% of the worlds investment, it's not just some rich toff in his mansion, it's the average worker saving for his old age or the already retired.

That's some top quality bullshit. And what does it matter? Sure you can have some money saved somewhere, but that doesn't automatically make you a capitalist.

And yes, babies get their care, retired people too. And they don't work. It's all about solidarity in those cases. In all socialist societies the community makes sure all have food, work, somewhere to live and a meaningful life. But what kind of stage in life is being a capitalist? What kind of support is he entitled to? Can he work? Yes. Can a baby work? No. Students, babies etc are all "paid" to make any country work. Capitalists are not needed, only in capitalism. Kings are not needed, only in a monarchy.

The GDR didn't have the mineral riches of the heavy industrialized BRD, there's no Ruhr-Area. They didn't have the economical support of the US. The GDR was a part of the former (original) prussian empire dominated by land owners and agriculture. They had to build everything from scratch, from the ruins. And when they did, somehow their country was merged with the west, and the westerners went in, were put as bosses. Successful companies were dissolved and replaced with western ones, just to expand their market.

West Germany has put a lot of money in the infrastructure etc of the east, but they will get a lot more back. Incorporating new territories with a lot of educated people who speak the same language is not a drawback to a country. On the opposite it's beneficial. Especially if you can get some more slaves.

[echo1 0]

Stalin is definitely no criminal. He was one of the most successful politicians of the last century.

That's... debatable, but considering how he presided over a system that developed Soviet industry exponentially at the expense of the welfare and rights of the working class, causing famines that lead to the deaths of millions, he was definitely one of the most successful capitalists of the last century. Wait, what's your point again?

[MehMan 0]

What kind of parasites? You can't just state something without backing it up with arguments.

People. People are greedy, that's a simple conclusion to make if you just browse these forums for example. Just rushing to socialism thinking that will be the end to all explotation and injustice is wishful thinking. On one end greed is natural, as the more you have, there are more chances of your survival and well being as there is of your offspring. On the other end being the mighty race as we are, we are far too greedy for our own good.

[kavoven 4]

k@voven how old are you? Its sad to see that some germans even now build up or have such stupid prejudice (with zero knowledge) against each other like this:

Quote[/b] ]Most of those people who say that the GDR was better never learned how to work in their lives. The state did everything for them and now they're messed up because they can't get their life straight.

Grow up and stop beeing a parrot from those west vs. east ranter!

Next time open up your eyes if you travel through germany. In every country you have regions with good and bad economy. If people are poor they simply can't move into better regions. Its a vicious circle and few people dont see chances to break out. So they start to romanticize bygone time...

Look at the current "If this sunday were votes, who would you vote for".

The "Die Linke", which is the former SED, gets 30% in the east. 30%! Thats incredible and I really, really don't want those people, who are voting for them destroying my country. This has nothing to do with no knowledge, indeed it has to do WITH knowledge since I'm smart enough to know what I'm voting for!

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]That's... debatable, but considering how he presided over a system that developed Soviet industry exponentially at the expense of the welfare and rights of the working class, causing famines that lead to the deaths of millions, he was definitely one of the most successful capitalists of the last century. Wait, what's your point again?

There was starvation, mainly in the Ukraine. That's bad of course, but you can't blame the government of the USSR for that. They had to democratize the agricultural sector. The land-owning class created by the NEP controlled large portions of the production and they had interests different to that of the common citizen. Food is a weapon. It was seen in use against the government when they tried to save the situation before it was too late. That's the result of class-war, history is bloody. I'm no land owner, I support no nations, I support my class and their organizations. The standards rose dramatically when the country was industrialized (not a day too soon).

Quote[/b] ]People. People are greedy, that's a simple conclusion to make if you just browse these forums for example. Just rushing to socialism thinking that will be the end to all explotation and injustice is wishful thinking. On one end greed is natural, as the more you have, there are more chances of your survival and well being as there is of your offspring. On the other end being the mighty race as we are, we are far too greedy for our own good.

People are what society makes them. Socialism will not end all exploitation but it will end the capitalist exploitation. If a society provides care for all, with no need for competition for work or food, people will be different, more generous. People feel that they are a part of a community instead of some competitive consumerist society.

Die Linke is a rather good party. That's the only real opposition party in Germany today. When conservatives and "social democrats" cooperate, something is very wrong. It's the only anti-liberal party that's represented in parliament too. The rest only differ in opinions on tax %.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Die Linke is a rather good party. That's the only real opposition party in Germany today. When conservatives and "social democrats" cooperate, something is very wrong. It's the only anti-liberal party that's represented in parliament too. The rest only differ in opinions on tax %.

Die Linke is together with the NPD, the last that Germany needs.

That party that is called "Die Linke", is a group of extreme left people, same as the SED was back in the DDR.

"Die Linke" and the "NPD" are close to become forbidden, because their plans are not tolerable.

One thing the party "Die Linke" would like to do, is to close down the "Bundeswehr" (German Army) completely. And than? Give the Key to the German Capital Berlin to the Russians as a present i assume.

That people may call them selfs "Die Linke" but it is still the SED, only with another name.

What they do with a country under there control is already known under the name DDR (German Democratic Republic), what is a joke by it self, as there was not a bit of democracy in that "state".

If the party "Die Linke" would be the leading party in Germany some day, they would hold the control from that on by force.

They already stated, that they want the Stasi back. They should get kicked out of business, rather today than tomorrow.

Germany needs no other regime, not from the left and not from the right, we had both and have enough of that shit.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Die Linke is a rather good party.

Yes sure, with Gysi being an ex informal agent of the Stasi. Come on Spokesperson, you don´t want to tell us another twisted truth now. If you´re talking about the Linke you better hold tight to your hat as it´s just a protest-party with no political concepts others than "eat the rich". For a start it would be a real socialist move if the bosses of Die Linke tell the german people where they hid all the SED billions that mystically dissapeared under the direct overwatch of Gregor Gysi when the DDR collapsed. I guess it´s about time that you realize that your horizon is more limited than you might have thought. You´re talking about something you certainly only have very little knowledge about. If you lived here and would have followed the ongoing investigations into several issues with Die Linke you´d know that this very party is nothing more than a bunch of ex-SED and Stasi members who try to make profit by telling people that all should be for free.

For once you should really first investigate your facts and then come in again. It´s getting tiresom and if you now try to portray Die Linke as a good thing you´re exposing yourself as a total idiot who only believes what he wants to believe or is told to believe. I guess it was you who was pointing his finger at us telling us that we only believe what we are told to believe by liberal media and now you come up with nonsense like that. Busted, I´d say.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]When I get richer, the people around me get richer too.

Of course. The more you make/force others produce for you (with the police protecting you), the more things there are to buy for lower prices. Slaves who work a lot and make their owners richer, also get more back, so they can be content and make no revolution.

Quote[/b] ](*)Pensions make up 99% of the worlds investment, it's not just some rich toff in his mansion, it's the average worker saving for his old age or the already retired.

That's some top quality bullshit. And what does it matter? Sure you can have some money saved somewhere, but that doesn't automatically make you a capitalist.

The police don't protect me.

When I dial 999, no one comes.

I wish they would.

But all they do is tax me.

No one protects me from the people I work with, employ or am employed by. No one needs to. We are all happy people.

We do what we can to help each other prosper.

It's mankinds communal goal.

I don't live in a country that practises slavery.

In fact I live in one that almost single handedly ended slavery world wide.

(No culture has ever done more).

I proudly and willingly contribute to constant and active military patrols of the slave coast in Africa.

It's a national ethic, part of our national anthem even.

When I have more money. I spend more money. The richer I am the more I buy.

I go to more restaurants and buy more meals. The restaurenteur makes more money, because I have more. The waitress makes more money because I have more.

I buy my friends better presents. The shops I buy them from make more money because I do.

The factories they buy them from makes more money too.

If I buy two cars instead of just one, a subsistance farmer in China gets the option of moving to a better paid job in a factory or sweatshop.

Trade is mutually beneficial.

In a standard business deal, both sides benefit from the trade. Not just one.

 

Having money saved in a pension scheme automatically makes you a capitalist. A shareholder.

That's what pension schemes are.

Pension funds and investment schemes and life insurances contribute the bulk of all investment worldwide.

Since you don't have one, you don't know any better.

Saving money in a building society likewise makes you "a shareholder".

Saving money in a bank is a commercial arrangement in which you lend them your money in exchange for a financial return.

Saving money under your pillow where it is constantly being de-valued by inflation, doesn't make you an anti-capitalist, it makes you a moron.

Hiding money under your bed doesn't make you a capitalist, but investing it does.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]That party that is called "Die Linke", is a group of extreme left people, same as the SED was back in the DDR.

"Die Linke" and the "NPD" are close to become forbidden, because their plans are not tolerable.

One thing the party "Die Linke" would like to do, is to close down the "Bundeswehr" (German Army) completely. And than? Give the Key to the German Capital Berlin to the Russians as a present i assume.

Of course the plans of Die Linke are intolerable for the ruling class. Because their plans involve the abolishment of the current ruling class and capitalism altogether. The ruling class decides what people should think and what's tolerable.

Outlawing non-nazi parties, like the Czech Republic did with the KSCM youth league, just shows how desperate the situation gets. The opposition to liberalism grows stronger everywhere, and the liberals want to stop it. Capitalists have never cared about democracy. Outlawing parties just makes their words even more meaningless, especially for common people who don't know the "details". But first they make you believe it's good, like with those anti-terror laws, you'll vote your way into even more oppression and less democracy. Democracy and freedom are just words used by the ruling class to decrease democracy and freedom. That way they

get away with it.

I didn't know that the party wanted to abolish the Bundeswehr, but that's no bad idea. It just costs a lot of money. And why would the Russians attack? That's just fear-based propaganda with no ties to reality.

Die Linke didn't state they wanted Stasi back, it was a DKP representative who got elected on a Linke ballot who said that.

You'll have to get used to a growing Die Linke. Growing social problems despite of some years with good growth, privatizations, dropping standards in education and healthcare, just show the extent of the crisis capitalism is in.

Quote[/b] ]Yes sure, with Gysi being an ex informal agent of the Stasi. Come on Spokesperson, you don´t want to tell us another twisted truth now. If you´re talking about the Linke you better hold tight to your hat as it´s just a protest-party with no political concepts others than "eat the rich". For a start it would be a real socialist move if the bosses of Die Linke tell the german people where they hid all the SED billions that mystically dissapeared under the direct overwatch of Gregor Gysi when the DDR collapsed. I guess it´s about time that you realize that your horizon is more limited than you might have thought. You´re talking about something you certainly only have very little knowledge about. If you lived here and would have followed the ongoing investigations into several issues with Die Linke you´d know that this very party is nothing more than a bunch of ex-SED and Stasi members who try to make profit by telling people that all should be for free.

For once you should really first investigate your facts and then come in again. It´s getting tiresom and if you now try to portray Die Linke as a good thing you´re exposing yourself as a total idiot who only believes what he wants to believe or is told to believe. I guess it was you who was pointing his finger at us telling us that we only believe what we are told to believe by liberal media and now you come up with nonsense like that. Busted, I´d say.

I have nothing against Stasi. Either you have a bourgeois secret-police or a proletarian one. There's a difference in which class (and state) it protects. There are "stasis" in all countries, some know how to handle PR. Organizations like the CIA for instance are a lot worse, but they have better reputation just because we live in the western sphere of influence.

When there's a growing threat to the current order, the rulers make more to stop it. The more % the left gets the more anti-socialist propaganda there'll be. And that's a hard battle considering that the establishment has a lot more financial backing.

Quote[/b] ]In fact I live in one that almost single handedly ended slavery world wide.

Yeah? What country is that? The slavery still exists, the same principles, but under a different name.

Quote[/b] ]Having money saved in a pension scheme automatically makes you a capitalist. A shareholder.

In some cases it makes you a shareholder. But not all shareholders are capitalists. Sure a small-size shareholder earns money off other people's work, but not to an extent that he can live on it without working himself. Capitalists are those who don't have to work at all in this context. 4% of the population owns 90% of the wealth. What is one share compared to a million?

[Baff1 0]

The whole purpose of a pension is so that you can live off it.

It's often called a "retirement fund".

In my country people over the age of 65 are not expected to work.

I live in Britain.

4% of the country creates 90% of the wealth. Not owns.

They are more productive members of society.

Some people work harder than others.

Some people are more efficient or more talented than others.

Some people have more marketable skills.

Some people aren't productive at all. Are they?

Similarly some lions run faster than others. They catch 90% of the prey.

Where I live that 4% (or 5) work in the city of London.

They pay the bulk of all taxes raised and that wealth is redistributed throughout the population by a system of wage controls, state employment, working conditions, a health sevice and all sorts of other social infrastructures.

Public museums, schools, concerts, televison and radio broadcasts, income support, military protection. etc. etc. etc.

Their wealth also filters through the economy in the same way mine does. Organically. They spend their money. Go to restaurents. Visit the cinema. Buy things in shops.

[Mr_Tea 0]

I did an oath on the preservation of the basic law when i entered service, and this stands till the end of my live.

Hundreds of thousands did that too, and if a point i reached where action is needed, it will happen.

There will never again be an regime in Germany, thats for sure.

Edit:

If the German Army would be no more, the Russians would not need to attack. They would only have to come and say thank you to their communist friends.

[lwlooz 0]

Oh dear Trollperson ,

now you are getting very silly. Your weird fascination with Stalin , proposing states without armies , always citing outdated 1:1 textbook communism (that's radical free-thinking I guess , as opposed to us brain-dead zombies who don't religiously follow an ideology).

But one thing were you always looks incredibly silly is arguing European politics and history. For one there are far more complex and diverse than your simplistic world view makes them look and secondly whenever some European comes along your "facts" turn out to be rubbish. So I guess you can troll on , but please leave Europe alone , it's just sad to see so much ignorance.

The Linke for one is nothing more than a collecting party of mostly the stupid,the insane,old PDS/SED functionaries,and frustrated Ex-SPD members.[Granted on some local levels some Linke party members are quite allright , especially in the east]

A simple "protest party" as it was put. They aren't going to carry you banner of Socialism back into Germany I am afraid and on that note, the GDR was an utter failure , look it up.

[Spokesperson 0]

Quote[/b] ]The whole purpose of a pension is so that you can live off it.

It's often called a "retirement fund".

In my country people over the age of 65 are not expected to work.

You can't take the profits from the pension fund investments and live on it your whole life. Sure I can go invest in something. The value might increase. And I can live on the profits for a few days. But you have to be completely economically independent. I can save a lot of money and use it one year. It's still money I myself have earned by work. Same goes for pensions even if they sometimes can give you a higher % than the normal interest rate.

Quote[/b] ]4% of the country creates 90% of the wealth. Not owns.

A worker can do without a capitalist, but a capitalist can't do without a worker.

The capitalists generate no value, they don't work. Work is the only action that can make things more valuable. You add time and work to something, you can make a house of some trees. Owning some trees creates no house. The commodity grows in value only through labour.

The capitalists don't pay for anything. The workers produce everything you own. The owner doesn't. He is a superfluous parasite. Just like your queen.

Quote[/b] ]I did an oath on the preservation of the basic law when i entered service, and this stands till the end of my live.

Hundreds of thousands did that too, and if a point i reached where action is needed, it will happen.

There will never again be an regime in Germany, thats for sure.

You have one already. It's based on liberal consensus. You vote for colors not for parties or about politics. It's a very interesting phenomenon. People are blind. It's like there is one choice (2 with PDS), but people complain about one-party states in other parts of the world like Iran. The scientific fact is that there is no free will. Ads have an effect. Liberal media has one too. People think the way they are told to think, from kindergarten and up. They have the same religion, hate the same things (like those evil ruskies).

Russia is no socialist country anymore. They are just another world player, another conservative imperialist state.

[Baff1 0]

I'm a pensioner.

I live off the profits of my investments and I've been doing it for a lot longer than one year.

Every single person in this country over the age of 65 does. There are tens of millions of people who do exactly this.

You say "you can't", but I do. And I'm not alone. Hundreds of millions of people around the world do.

We could all spend all our savings in a year too. Or even a day. But we chose not to.

Many people invest in schemes that do not allow them access to do this.

Life expectancy here is 80 years.

We have to plan for at least 15 years of pension.

If you saved 1/3 of everything you earned from the age of 18-65 you could live out your retirement on the same average expenditure as you have done for the rest of your life.

Or, if you invested it profitably, you could do it with a lot less.

For most of us we just accept the profound drop in our income

that retirement brings. We learn to live with less.

You can't save a lot of money if you don't go to work.

All you can do is hope that someone else works twice as hard and is willing to pay your share for you.

Any % intrest rate, normal or otherwise is not money you worked for yourself. It is money you commercially lent to others.

Or in my case, money I personally lent to others.

Pensions don't give you a percent intrest rate. Savings do. Pensions give you shareholdings. Part ownership in companies. Many of those companies will offer you a share in their profits in return for that investment, some do not.

These shares may be traded.

These companies are called "publicly owned companies".

(As opposed to Royally owned companies or state owned companies).

Quote[/b] ]The capitalists generate no value, they don't work. Work is the only action that can make things more valuable. You add time and work to something, you can make a house of some trees. Owning some trees creates no house. The commodity grows in value only through labour.

Capitalists work. You don't.

A worker with no job isn't a worker. No one needs a "worker" like you. Not capitalists or anyone else.

Once a house is built. It's built. The worker no longer adds any value to it. He is no longer the reason the house holds value. Or the reason why the value of the house increases.

If more people are born, or more people emigrate to the region. The value of the house is increased by the demand.

If Cindy Crawford and Elle MacPherson move into the house next door, the value of your house is increased by fashion.

If your house is an old house, or somebody famous once lived there, its value may be increased because of it's historical value.

Owning some trees creates value. By owning those you trees you conserve them.

It makes the enviroment a nicer place to live. More beautiful.

Also it protects those trees as assets.

They do not get cut down, but instead are saved for a future need. It provides a storage medium for value.

Access to future value in a time where you forsee them being more useful.

Planning creates value.

An extra sausage on an already full plate adds no value, but stored in the fridge until the future, when you expect to be hungry again; it is valuable once more.

In this example it is the person that stored the sausage, the owner, that imbues it with value, not the creator of the sausage.

Smart people add value to things without even having to work. Simply by knowing what to expect.

In the workplace experience is highly prized and provides value.

As does education. Know how, and even rarity or popularity.

The value of an item or indeed a person is wholly dependent on the value placed on it by others.

Some work is more valuable than others.

Some opinion more valuable than others.

With regards to workers not needing capitalists, how do you feel about China's economic revolution.

How do you feel about 300 million people, that used to be starving or subsistance farmers, all becoming workers in the last 10 years.

The growth of China's middle classes to 600 million people.

The fruits of foreign investment.

Capitalism in action. Creating workers.

All paid for by little old capitalist workers*.

The same thing is happening all over the former Soviet Union too.

(*)The Queens wealth is insignificant when compared to the combined wealth of the nation.

Instead of defining capitalists as rich people who do not work and live off slaves, and socialism and communism as god knows whatever it is you define them as, how about you look the words up in a dictionary.

These words already have definitions.

Find out what they really mean and use them appropriately.

Alternatively if you are unable to grasp the meaning of big words, try to express your thoughts using smaller ones.

The same goes for the word "slavery" if you redefine the word, it loses it's meaning.

Slavery is something the British people take very seriously. It's defeat is our legacy to the world.

For the last two hundred years we have been seeking out slavers and closing them down at gunpoint.

Volunteering to go to work in exchange for an agreed upon wage, is not the same as being kept in chains and going to work or being whipped or otherwise punished.

Living in your own home with the people you chose in the location you chose is not the same as being held against your will.

For many people here English is not their first language. Trying to redefine words or using them improperly is unhelpful. It defeats the point of sharing a common language.

[Mr_Tea 0]

I´m not that sure where Russia is heading.

An socialist regime would be the easiest way for them to control the country with one party. There is no real democracy in Russia, and there will not be any in an foreseeable time.

In times like this, it`s very easy to turn back the clock a few years, and tell the people that experiment had failed and it was the wrong way. The Russians are sheep's, they will follow their leader, as a strong leader is all they want.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course the plans of Die Linke are intolerable for the ruling class.

Heh ? The "plans" are even intolerable for the working class as there are no real plans and they can´t say in a single word how they want to finance their "plans" or what effect their "plans" would have on the german people as a whole. They are just demanding things to raise their votes. The ultra-right scream "Ausländer raus" while Die Linke screams "eat the rich". Both "concepts" can hardly be called a serious approach to todays problems and are certainly nothing that could be called a political program. If you think that this is enough you only disqualify yourself from any further discussion as they intend to make Die Linke and their corrupt political leaders the ruling class. They do not intend to get rid of the ruling class. They want to replace them with themselves for the very same reasons that every political partyx has. Money and power. As I said the current leadership of Die Linke already has betrayed their very own people and they have already done this for big piles of money that belongs to the people of germany and not the party of PDS or Die Linke or single persons like Gysi. But that´s how it is. They hide away the SED money and simply have lost their memory when it comes to that. I´m sorry but if you think that this is the right approach than you support totalitarian methods and make yourself look like a lemming of their PR machine. You should learn that not everything that contains the words "socialism" and "communism" is a good and trustworthy thing per se.

Quote[/b] ]I didn't know that the party wanted to abolish the Bundeswehr, but that's no bad idea.

Yes sure, let´s get rid of social healthcare aswell it just costs money you know...

Seriously, get a grip on reality. Most missions the Bundeswehr is taking part in are humanitarian missions around the globe. Read: They save lifes, they build a better future and infrastructure in other countries to support the people there with basic things that are needed to survive like access to clean water, access to food and accesss to democratic political structures while on the other hand trying to lower the influence of radicals that affect life worldwide.

Someone who demands that the Bundewehr should get abolished is responsible for the killing of people who are unable to protect themselves and to feed themselves worldwide. End of story.

Quote[/b] ]I have nothing against Stasi.

So you´d support the Gestapo aswell. Good to know...

Quote[/b] ]Organizations like the CIA for instance are a lot worse

Err, no. The CIA is conducting operations abroad the US while the Stasi was mainly operating to control the people within the DDR. That´s two completely different kind of things...

Quote[/b] ]The more % the left gets the more anti-socialist propaganda there'll be.

Propaganda ? There is no reason for propaganda. The facts are plain on the table, everyone who´s willing to can validate the facts. There´s no propaganda joker to be played. There´s a huge Stasi archive and it´s very interesting to see that your heros of the working class representing Die Linke today have quite a record on being ex-Stasi members who sent other people into political imprisonment or destroyed families as kids were taken away from their parents if those didn´t follow the SED line. That´s fact, not propaganda. Do not try to twist something you have absolutely no idea about. I and I guess othe other german members of this board with a little background knowledge on the history of the DDR will not accept such. A friend of mine is an ex-silver medallist of the DDR who won her silver medal in Seoul 1988. She and her husband were part of a privileged class within the DDR as both were sportsmen with appearances on the international stage and both of them had the chance to lead a live extremely different to those who lead a workers life in the DDR. We have had nightlong discusssion about the control mechanisms within the DDR and the privileged class within the DDR. They have a very different story to tell than your remix of the story and both of them are in fact 1000 times more credible than you. Sorry, but you are simply not qualified enough to make any judgement about the DDR or the follow up political parties of the SED like the PDS or Die Linke. You simply have don´t have the slightest idea about it.

You should really check your facts first if you try to toot your "views" on the remains of the DDR or the DDR itself. Else you make yourself look like a complete idiot and fool as you do right now.

[Spokesperson 0]

Pensioners and savers in pension funds are generally no capitalists. If you don't work that doesn't mean you're capitalist. But if you are a capitalist you don't have to work. You can live on the profits.

Pensions of most people are not made up of profits to such an amount that you can live on the profits alone. If you can, then you're a capitalist. But you can be wealthy without being a capitalist.

Quote[/b] ]Capitalists work. You don't.

How? What's their work. What work did they do to get their profit?

We aren't talking about me, you have no clue who I am and what I do. I might be a capitalist myself. Who knows. We talk about society, individuals are not interesting in that context. Or do you think social scientists write a chapter about themselves in every book they write?

Quote[/b] ]Once a house is built. It's built. The worker no longer adds any value to it. He is no longer the reason the house holds value. Or the reason why the value of the house increases.

He is the reason that it holds value. The value of a house doesn't increase if no new work is added to it. The price however can change depending on the market. Price and value are completely different things.

Ownership creates no value. Work is the only thing that does so.

Of course you can say that something is valuable for you, like an emotion. But then you're confusing economic value with other linguistic meanings of the word. There are different kinds of values. Air has a high use value, but no exchange value, and no price.

Quote[/b] ]With regards to workers not needing capitalists, how do you feel about China's economic revolution.

How do you feel about 300 million people, that used to be starving or subsistance farmers, all becoming workers in the last 10 years.

The growth of China's middle classes to 600 million people.

The fruits of foreign investment.

Capitalism in action. Creating workers.

You only have to look at Cuba or the USSR, or any self-managing factory in the dawn of the 21th century socialism in South America. Capitalists are not needed. They are parasites.

According to the stage theory, you can't jump from feodalism to socialism. Or from slavery to capitalism. Capitalism has to be developed enough, the accumulation of capital in the system has to be working, before socialism can be implemented. Capitalism has a role in history, just like slavery had. The nepalese maoists (="stalinists") who won the elections recently, for instance, do not want to nationalize anything at the moment. Their revolution was bourgeois, like the French, they crushed feodalism, and now they have to build capitalism. "Hard-line" communists ("Stalinists") can be supporters of capitalism, free markets and liberal democracy, without contradicting marxism.

Quote[/b] ](*)The Queens wealth is insignificant when compared to the combined wealth of the nation.

Yes, and the wealth of some oil tycoon or Bill Gates is insignificant combined to the world. The Queen is a parasite. But her company is the state, that gives her tax %.

I use the word slavery as an "allegory" (but at the same time not). But the real word to use is wage-slave. If you're interested in a full definition of it you can go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

Are some examples of types of slavery. There's one for every mode of production.

Quote[/b] ]I´m not that sure where Russia is heading.

An socialist regime would be the easiest way for them to control the country with one party. There is no real democracy in Russia, and there will not be any in an foreseeable time.

In times like this, it`s very easy to turn back the clock a few years, and tell the people that experiment had failed and it was the wrong way. The Russians are sheep's, they will follow their leader, as a strong leader is all they want.

There's no democracy anywhere, but yes, Russia is less democratic than most western countries. Capitalists have more power in that country. When the communist presidential candidate had a strong lead, like 30%, over Yeltsin (he had like 5% support), the media owners and other capitalists saw where things were heading. They were going to lose everything they had taken after the dissolution of socialism. So they started to panic-fund Yeltsin. TV and the press completely ignored everyone apart from Yeltsin. A massive propaganda campaign was launched, and he finally changed his % from 5% to about 30%. He won with a few percents margin. That's the power of "free press". Ads can be commercial and political. People are affected by them. A few years later the economy crashed.

Quote[/b] ]Heh ? The "plans" are even intolerable for the working class as there are no real plans and they can´t say in a single word how they want to finance their "plans" or what effect their "plans" would have on the german people as a whole. They are just demanding things to raise their votes. The ultra-right scream "Ausländer raus" while Die Linke screams "eat the rich". Both "concepts" can hardly be called a serious approach to todays problems and are certainly nothing that could be called a political program. If you think that this is enough you only disqualify yourself from any further discussion as they intend to make Die Linke and their corrupt political leaders the ruling class. They do not intend to get rid of the ruling class. They want to replace them with themselves for the very same reasons that every political partyx has. Money and power. As I said the current leadership of Die Linke already has betrayed their very own people and they have already done this for big piles of money that belongs to the people of germany and not the party of PDS or Die Linke or single persons like Gysi. But that´s how it is. They hide away the SED money and simply have lost their memory when it comes to that. I´m sorry but if you think that this is the right approach than you support totalitarian methods and make yourself look like a lemming of their PR machine. You should learn that not everything that contains the words "socialism" and "communism" is a good and trustworthy thing per se.

Nazis have no theoretical framework behind them. Their ideology is based on belief in their own superiority and the jewish world-conspiracy. It's a violent religion.

But if you look at PDS they have a very stable theoretical scientific framework. It might not look so, because of all slogans, but there is one. And they have a big problem. They don't want to be labeled as communists, even if their politics is most similar to that of communists. They can't talk about how society works without being labeled communists. So they have to use popular slogans and no theory.

SED-money etc, that's up to the bourgeois courts to decide. Who knows if there was money in the first place.

Quote[/b] ]Most missions the Bundeswehr is taking part in are humanitarian missions around the globe.

Occupation is never humanitarian. What are they doing in Afghanistan? What did the Bundeswehr do in Yugoslavia? The Bundeswehr is just another agent of imperialism. But on a minor scale.

Quote[/b] ]So you´d support the Gestapo aswell. Good to know...

No, I wouldn't. I don't support a secret police whose mission is to protect the ruling capitalist class. I support a secret police that protects the ruling working class. I don't support the Verfassungsschutz or MI6, because they have the same functions as Gestapo. The difference is that Gestapo acted in a time when capitalism was threatened, and on the verge of collapse. More radical methods had to be employed.

Quote[/b] ]Err, no. The CIA is conducting operations abroad the US while the Stasi was mainly operating to control the people within the DDR. That´s two completely different kind of things...

The CIA is conducting operations anywhere. Stasi, KGB was too.

Quote[/b] ] That´s fact, not propaganda.

Yes, that's no propaganda. But there's propaganda too, and the best propaganda comes with some truths to back up all the lies with. Wherever anti-capitalists gain ground there's a capitalist reaction. And as capitalists own media, they use those means to counter the advance. There's no exception to this in history. Including Germany. If you don't see it, you've fallen into the propaganda trap.

The ruling class in the GDR was the working class. But of course there were privileged workers and other associates, just like there are privileged workers in this system. The more you work in socialism, the more you get. The more exclusive/hard your job is the more you get too. Sportsmen is one such job. Politician another. The main difference is that there are no capitalists who live by the principle, the more you own, the more you get.

[Dwarden 1125]

hmm i wonder why noone comments that Russians self now 'dropped' the 2-3k deaths tool on SO and adjusted it to ~150 ...

which would easily mean Russians killed more Georgians in Georgia than Georgians killed in 'police/security' operation in SO ...

so much for very well done media war ...