The Iraq thread 3

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/24/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The United States presented a draft U.N. resolution Monday that would give the U.N. Security Council's approval to a new Iraqi government and multinational peacekeeping force.

It also would formally end a yearlong U.S.-led occupational administration and authorize a multinational force under U.S. command for a year.

The resolution would recognize the planned handover of sovereignty on June 30, in which the U.S.-led administration would be dissolved and an interim government would rule in Baghdad until after elections, which are slated for January.

you gotta be kidding me. Iraq is up and running ok already! remember? 'Mission Accomplished', Iraqis will greet us with flowers and smile?

anyways, nice going TBA.

some provisions.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/24/iraq.un.highlights.reut/

Quote[/b] ]The United Nations would endorse the formation of a "sovereign interim government of Iraq" that takes office by June 30. This government is being selected by U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi, in consultation with U.S. officials.

It would help organize a national conference that would select a consultative council to aid the new government and help organize elections, among other tasks.

The resolution would reaffirm authorization of a U.S.-led multinational force that would have the authority to take "all necessary measures" to maintain peace and security.

The mandate for the force would be reviewed but not terminated after a year, unless council members wanted that.

It would ask U.N. members and international security organizations, such as NATO, to join the multinational force and provide aid to Iraq.

I can already smell it coming:

TBA: we tried to get UN to help Iraq get back on its feet, but UN denied the chance.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

*cough* *cough* advertising!! Come join CIA NOW on their server! *cough*

You may proceed with your discussion

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone had a chance to view some extracts of Fahrenheit 911 yet. And to the germans on this forum. I just bought Scholl Laturs new book about the conflict in Iraq and the islam-clash. Couldnt stop reading. It is amazing.. I already killed 60 pages and it is full of facts worth mentioning here. Surprising enough. He had seen it all comming 2 years ago. What many people now consider as Anti-american voting in the UN was in fact nothing but criticism based on the comments and assessment of knowledgeable specialsist. Scholl Latur is a german author who liver decades in the Middle East!

[Donnervogel 0]

*cough* *cough* advertising!! Come join CIA NOW on their server! *cough*

You may proceed with your discussion

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone had a chance to view some extracts of Fahrenheit 911 yet. And to the germans on this forum. I just bought Scholl Laturs new book about the conflict in Iraq and the islam-clash. Couldnt stop reading. It is amazing.. I already killed 60 pages and it is full of facts worth mentioning here. Surprising enough. He had seen it all comming 2 years ago. What many people now consider as Anti-american voting in the UN was in fact nothing but criticism based on the comments and assessment of knowledgeable specialsist. Scholl Latur is a german author who liver decades in the Middle East!

Heh that doesn't pay full respect to this man. Peter Scholl Latour is an incredible guy. He basicly experienced every world crisis since the secound world war. He lived in many different countries. He was reporting from most wars of the 20th cetury. He became famous with his reports from the vietnam war but also reported from less known conflics. He isn't anti american. He traveled with US troops in many conflicts and had some friends among them. He is against the Bush administration though.

Well there is a lot more one could say about him but I just wanted to prevent anyone thinking that he's biased about the middle east because of living there. He isn't. He saw pretty much everything and was pretty much everywhere.

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040524/ts_nm/iraq_usa_prison_dc_2

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. to Demolish Abu Ghraib Prison with Iraqi Okay

41 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States will demolish Iraq (news - web sites)'s notorious Abu Ghraib prison in consultation with the incoming government as a way of symbolizing the country's new start, the White House said on Monday.

Good for them...

[miles teg 1]

Amen. But I hope that they also bring in 3rd party supervisors to all the other prisons and any new prisons to make sure interrogations don't get carried away and that they listen to any Red Cross reports seriously.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[bn880 5]

But that would be one of the biggest tourist attractions in 50 years.

[miles teg 1]

In case anyone is interested, Andy Rooney's segment at the end of last nights 60 Minutes...

Quote[/b] ]If you were going to make a list of the great times in American history, you'd start with the day in 1492, when Columbus got here.

The Revolution when we won our independence would be on the list.

Beating Hitler.

Putting Americans on the moon.

We've had a lot of great days.

Our darkest days up until now have been things like presidential assassinations, the stock market crash in 1929, Pearl Harbor, and 9-11, of course.

The day the world learned that American soldiers had tortured Iraqi prisoners belongs high on the list of worst things that ever happened to our country. It's a black mark that will be in the history books in a hundred languages for as long as there are history books. I hate to think of it.

The image of one bad young woman with a naked man on a leash did more to damage America's reputation than all the good things we've done over the years ever helped our reputation.

What were the secrets they were trying to get from captured Iraqis? What important information did that poor devil on the leash have that he wouldn't have given to anyone in exchange for a crust of bread or a sip of water?

Where were your officers? If someone told you to do it, tell us who told you. If your officers were told – we should know who told them.

One general said our guards were "untrained." Well, untrained at what? Being human beings? Did the man who chopped off Nicholas Berg's head do it because he was untrained?

The guards who tortured prisoners are faced with a year in prison. Well, great. A year for destroying our reputation as decent people.

I don't want them in prison, anyway. We shouldn't have to feed them. Take away their right to call themselves American - that's what I’d do. You aren't one of us. Get out. We don't want you. Find yourself another country or a desert island somewhere. If the order came from someone higher up, take him with you.

In the history of the world, several great civilizations that seemed immortal have deteriorated and died. I don't want to seem dramatic tonight, but I've lived a long while, and for the first time in my life, I have this faint, faraway fear that it could happen to us here in America as it happened to the Greek and Roman civilizations.

Too many Americans don't understand what we have here, or how to keep it. I worry for my grandchildren, my great-grandchildren. I want them to have what I've had, and I sense it slipping away.

Have a nice day.

Yeah I saw that transcript of Andy Rooney's segement.

HOLY CRAP... if the Bush administration has lost Andy Rooney. then we have lost the war. His comments I think really hit the nail on the head and are downright scary.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

Hi Bernadotte

Interesting having my own words quoted back at me but my anger is completely consistant with that statement for it is not at a people my anger is at specific people who have done wrong.

Kind Regards Walker

Then I'm quite relieved to discover that you are not blind to the atrocious wrongs committed by other "specific people" elsewhere in the Middle East.

[Bernadotte 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040524/ts_nm/iraq_usa_prison_dc_2

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. to Demolish Abu Ghraib Prison with Iraqi Okay

41 minutes ago  

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States will demolish Iraq (news - web sites)'s notorious Abu Ghraib prison in consultation with the incoming government as a way of symbolizing the country's new start, the White House said on Monday.

Good for them...

Of course this is of benefit to the coalition, but how do they know that this reflects the wishes of the Iraqi people - especially the victims? The post-WWII authorities in Germany were quite anxious to destroy many or most of the concentration camps, against the wishes of surviving vicitims.

[walker 0]

Hi all

General Sanchez is to be relieved of command in Iraq:

Quote[/b] ]President Bush plans to appoint a new, higher-ranking military commander for Iraq, capping an overhaul of the command structure that is likely to replace Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez as the top general on the ground there, Pentagon and other administration officials said yesterday

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52980-2004May24.html Dont know about you all but that looks to me like he is being thrown to the wolves while Rummy and the rest do a quick exit from the situation.

Quote[/b] ]Sanchez has been besieged lately by questions about his oversight of detainee operations in Iraq, especially his role in the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. soldiers at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad. But administration officials said the move to install a new four-star commander has been under consideration for months, well before the mistreatment of detainees became major news.

yeh right it has been a well planned consideration since months ago.

Complete fantasy for a moment

Cast Of Characters

Pentagon NeoCon Bod; (White House Apointee) Holding some papers.

Man In Charge with glasses sitting behind the desk

Some time in September just before the Investigations first started

Pentagon NeoCon Bod "Hey boss you know all the more force full questioning methods we used at Abu Ghraib prison"

Man In Charge with glasses "Yeh hope they are being more force full. That guy Sanchez is great even went down there to check things were going to plan. He he! "

Pentagon NeoCon Bod  "Well there is a problem you know the pictures they were taking?"

Man In Charge with glasses "You mean the ones that make them ashamed so they crack earlier?"

Pentagon NeoCon Bod "Yeh he he. Well it apears a disk has been offered to the media"

Man In Charge with glasses "WHAT!"

Pentagon NeoCon Bod "We can have an investigation then people wont be able to say we knew about it and kept it quiet. We can just say it was a few sick people lower down the chain of command."

Man In Charge with glasses "It will get chased up here we need fall back positions!"

Pentagon NeoCon Bod "Well we can hold it at the investigation stage for about 3 months. Then we can do a press call in Iraq few US reporters there, if we choose a friday most of them will be getting ready for the weekend and all the Arab media will be at prayer.

We can pretend to be the guys who discovered it. With any luck it wont even be noticed. We will make a real boring section after a realy important issue if possible. We can then hold the report up in the burocracy for about 3 or 4 months so you dont see it.

Then there are the inevitable congresional and senatorial hearings we will have 6 months to rehearse for them but we can hold it up in that for about 2 months. Have the trials at the same time and another bunch of sub investigation so that any tough questions we can say. 'Sub judacy' or 'We have to wait for the investigation on that one'

We can make the process slower by splitting everyone up and sending them all over the globe. Travel time will triple the investigation time.

Then we can throw the general in charge of the prison to the courts. That will take up another month there is also the Millitary Inteligence commander and the civilian contarctors.

We have to keep the contractors out of this though we made some promises."

Man In Charge with glasses "Well they can disapear out of jurisdiction or something."

Pentagon NeoCon Bod "Yes we can have an investigation in to that too it will take another couple of months and muddy the waters.

The Millitary Intelligence guys are a problem though they lead up the chain of command.

We will have to give them a big head to digest"

Man In Charge with glasses "Have to be that guy Sanchez I never realy liked the guy"

Hope you all enjoyed that little ficticious satire purely my own imagination.

Kind Regards Walker

[quicksand 0]

Trouble ahead..

Holiest shrine in Iraq damaged after attack

Quote[/b] ]NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - The Imam Ali shrine in Najaf, the holiest Shi'ite site in Iraq, was damaged on Tuesday by rockets or mortars, witnesses said -- a development likely to spark outrage among Iraq's Shi'ite majority.

One of the entrances to the shrine was damaged in the attack. It was not clear who fired the missiles. U.S. forces have been fighting Shi'ite militiamen loyal to rebel cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in Najaf and other Shi'ite areas.

Ahmad Shebani, Sadr's representative at the shrine, said five or six missiles had hit the building. There was no immediate comment from U.S. troops.

Witnesses said three people had been wounded in the attack, none seriously.

Sadr visited the shrine after the attack to personally inspect the damage, as crowds of supporters chanted.

Earlier this month, the vast gilded dome of the shrine was damaged in fighting. The U.S. military and Sadr's militiamen blamed each other for causing the damage.

Don`t want to exagerate but it`s my personal opinion that an important part of Iraq history is being written and Sadr could play a vital role in it.The damage of the shrine is bound to strike severe outrage among Iraqis,ridiculing Sistani and his "red line",winning even more support for Al-Sadr.

[denoir 0]

Hehehe: Let the bitch-slapping begin: France seeks changes to Iraq plan [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]A US and UK draft proposal for transferring power to an interim Iraqi government must be improved if it is to gain UN support, France has said.

France, a permanent UN Security Council member which opposed the Iraq war, has the power to veto any draft proposal.

Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said plans for the transfer of power should be "sincere, credible and realistic".

Analysts say the debate will focus on how much control a new government has over foreign armies deployed in Iraq. The US-British proposal was presented to the UN on Monday.

The text says that the interim Iraqi government that takes charge on 30 June will have sovereignty, but limited control over coalition military operations.

It does not specify that the troops will leave Iraq if the new government asks them to. China, another permanent member of the UN Security Council, is studying the draft closely, a foreign ministry spokesman said.

Diplomatic debate

Mr Barnier described the proposal as "a draft which should be discussed and improved".

He told French newspaper, Le Figaro, that the new Iraqi government "will not be credible unless it is given real control of the transfer of sovereignty".

France, he said, wanted to know whether the proposed transfer of sovereignty "concerns the power to run the economy, to manage the police and justice systems or to exploit natural resources".

The UN envoy to Iraq, Lakhdar Brahimi, is expected to name several top interim leaders, including a president and prime minister, in the coming weeks. The diplomatic debate comes as insurgents continue bloody attacks against foreign forces and their allies in Iraq.

The humorous thing about this is that it is completely irrelevant - it's just posturing. The UN resolution (as well as the "turnover of power") is just window dressing - and everybody is perfectly aware of it. Bush wants a nice slogan for the elections "US is the leader of a multinational force that is restoring freedom blah blah". The real issue in Iraq however is security. And there won't be any additional military support from Europe. Italy almost withdrew from Iraq last week following a parliament resolution that failed with a very narrow margin. There have been hummings from Poland as well. It would be political suicide to send troops, UN resolution or not. And security is the alpha and the omega in Iraq. As the World Bank said last week, money is no problem - the problem is that nobody wants to work in Iraq because it is too dangerous. So there is basically no reconstruction going on and the current coalition forces have shown themselves to be completely inept at handling the violence. The new Iraqi security forces are a joke (20% infiltrating rebels, 30% deserters) and are certainly not capable of doing the job.

The "handover of power" is a farce as there is nobody who can take over power. There is no real transfer of power. The US will be making the decisions at more or less all levels. And that's not surprising as simply put the Iraqis do not have the political structures - and much less security resources in place that would be capable of maintaining control of the country. Not to mention that there is no "control of Iraq" to be handed over as the coalition does not control Iraq.

Everybody is perfectly aware of this. Bush is looking to strengthen his political standing in the US (especially since Kerry has been going on and on about a 'multinational force for Iraq'). France, Germany & most of Europe just wants to look good (and make Bush look bad) by demanding more power being handed over to the Iraqis. You'll see that one of the sticking points will be who leads the security forces.

So it's a nice big show which makes no difference for the situation in Iraq.

[bn880 5]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040524/ts_nm/iraq_usa_prison_dc_2

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. to Demolish Abu Ghraib Prison with Iraqi Okay

41 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States will demolish Iraq (news - web sites)'s notorious Abu Ghraib prison in consultation with the incoming government as a way of symbolizing the country's new start, the White House said on Monday.

Good for them...

Of course this is of benefit to the coalition, but how do they know that this reflects the wishes of the Iraqi people - especially the victims? The post-WWII authorities in Germany were quite anxious to destroy many or most of the concentration camps, against the wishes of surviving vicitims.

My thought is: exactly

There should be a formal proceeding _after_ peace actually exists in Iraq where the victims of this prison and their families can vote on if they want the prison gone. Basically if it is demolished now, it is aimed to lessen the truth for future generations. No prison/camp to visit by tourists and families, less recollection of who also treated people like parasites.

[MLF 0]

erm that Prison was more notorious under Saddams rule, so i think it should have been destroyed ages ago.

[bn880 5]

Again that logic is flawed. More or less, makes no difference to destruction of a piece of human history.

[DarkLight 0]

I wonder what happened to all those extremely dangerous WMDs that Iraq has... I bet they're hiding them under their beds!!! NUKE EM ALLLLL

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]I wonder what happened to all those extremely dangerous WMDs that Iraq has

George Bush latest announcement

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]erm that Prison was more notorious under Saddams rule, so i think it should have been destroyed ages ago.

Do you think we should have destroyed the Nazi death camps to?

I happen to think they serve a purpose, telling those that werent there what happened all those years ago.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]erm that Prison was more notorious under Saddams rule, so i think it should have been destroyed ages ago.

Do you think we should have destroyed the Nazi death camps to?

I happen to think they serve a purpose, telling those that werent there what happened all those years ago.

I strongly disagree. For the germans the concentration camp museums serve the purpose to remind us of our sins in the past and the responsibility we have for all those minorities now living in germany.

In iraq I dont see this purpose. Should the people who were imprisoned there be reminded of their what happened to themselves? I doubt that. Flatten them..build hospitals on the same spot and no "in memoriam" museums!

[bn880 5]

Albert, without such reminders of the results of dirctatorships or wars they are more likely to happen in the future. Good they remind you! What happened there and happened in Iraq should be remembered and it is best if it's fresh in everyones minds, so that it is avoided in the future.

Destroying a building turns dust to dust, but keeping the building has a psychological effect which is positive for civilization! However like I said, if under a time of peace the people who were held in the prison(s) want them destroyed then I would say why not.

[Bernadotte 0]

For the germans the concentration camp museums serve the purpose to remind us of our sins in the past and the responsibility we have for all those minorities now living in germany.

In iraq I dont see this purpose. Should the people who were imprisoned there be reminded of their what happened to themselves? I doubt that. Flatten them..build hospitals on the same spot and no "in memoriam" museums!

I'm not German.  I didn't visit any camps to be reminded of your past sins.  I visited because that is where some of my relatives were killed.  There have been a huge number of visitors like me who are also glad they didn't completely disappear.  I suspect that the same feelings could exist in Iraq.

[billybob2002 0]

It is official...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....sarin_2

Quote[/b] ]

Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb

1 hour, 29 minutes ago

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Comprehensive testing has confirmed the presence of the chemical weapon sarin in the remains of a roadside bomb discovered this month in Baghdad, a defense official said Tuesday.

Quote[/b] ]

Since it was not fired from a gun but was detonated as a bomb, the initial explosion on May 15 dispersed the precursor chemicals, apparently mixing them in only small amounts, officials said then. In battle, such shells would have to be fired in great numbers to effect a large body of troops.

So, it could of been worse....

[miles teg 1]

For the germans the concentration camp museums serve the purpose to remind us of our sins in the past and the responsibility we have for all those minorities now living in germany.

In iraq I dont see this purpose. Should the people who were imprisoned there be reminded of their what happened to themselves? I doubt that. Flatten them..build hospitals on the same spot and no "in memoriam" museums!

I'm not German.  I didn't visit any camps to be reminded of your past sins.  I visited because that is where some of my relatives were killed.  There have been a huge number of visitors like me who are also glad they didn't completely disappear.  I suspect that the same feelings could exist in Iraq.

In that case, then you should know more then anyone else that the Iraqi prisons can not be compared in any way to the level of attrocities commited by the Nazis in WWII. What happened in Iraq was terrible, but sadly one of those bad things that happen in War that we need to work to avoid in the future and that indeed was very shameful...but what the Nazis did in WWII surpassed shame... words do not describe the level of horror and attrocity that the Nazis carried out in the Death Camps.

I actually agree with the Bush administration that the camp needs to be destroyed...but more needs to be done. A new system of prison management needs to be implemented that will insure that these shameful and brutal acts (along with a handful of alleged murders of prisoners) do not ever happen again.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

For the germans the concentration camp museums serve the purpose to remind us of our sins in the past and the responsibility we have for all those minorities now living in germany.

In iraq I dont see this purpose. Should the people who were imprisoned there be reminded of their what happened to themselves? I doubt that. Flatten them..build hospitals on the same spot and no "in memoriam" museums!

I'm not German.  I didn't visit any camps to be reminded of your past sins.  I visited because that is where some of my relatives were killed.  There have been a huge number of visitors like me who are also glad they didn't completely disappear.  I suspect that the same feelings could exist in Iraq.

Nice to suggest. Unfortunately we are to much into psycometrics here that I cannot refer to a source or fact. But I have the sincere feeling that the Iraqis have enough of prisons. Or do you believe that a german jew wants to live with a concentration camp in his neighbourhood? Even if it may serve as a museum I rather believe that former prisoners would rather not prefer to shiver each time they pass by this castle of teror. Assuming that mostly jews would have lived near a german concentration camp and survived the Holocaust. Do you believe they would have insisted: "nah, lets make a beautiful museum out of it"! How many former holocaust survivors returned back to a CC for a visit? They definetly tried to get as far away from them as possible and that for several decades!

Let the wounds heal, flatten that prison and make the iraqis build new GOOD memories instead of making them stuck in the old Saddam nightmare!

Miles Tag. I am getting tired of this "we cannot compare". Sure we can! Making comparisons doesnt mean setting them equal. Comparing means CONTRASTING. And there are certain similarities as far as individual fates are concerned. And as an individual in a prison under Saddam could have been as terrible as being an individual in a concentration camp. This doesnt downplay the Holocaust but uses it as a lesson. And of course we should learn a lesson from it, shouldnt we. And learning a lesson means to apply experience (holocaust) to to counteract current problems (torture and genocide)? Otherwise those minorities in Ausschwitz have realy died for nothing.

[bn880 5]

I agree with you Albert, and that is why I think the action should be taken when it can be sure the former prisonners really want that. So far it looks like they don't from what I've seen on TV. (great source) I mean, some people may actually get "closure" to their fears and problems when the y can safely walk in that prison with their family, to realize things are ok now..

Just speculating, but it should be up to the victims.