School shooting

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Netherlands shocked by first deadly school shooting

The Netherlands was trying to make sense of the first deadly shooting in a school after a deputy principal of a high school was killed by one of his students.

A student of the Terra College in The Hague shot 49-year-old deputy principal Hans van Wieren in the head on Tuesday in the school cafeteria in full view of many of the students. The critically injured teacher was rushed to hospital but died later.

The suspect, a 17-year-old student at the school, turned himself in to the police after the shooting but has refused to talk about what happened.

The Dutch prosecutor's office has opened an investigation.

Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende expressed his shock at what he called "a horrific incident".

"Such a thing should never be allowed to happen in our country," he said.

Balkenende and Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands on Wednesday both sent letters of condolence to the family of the victim, the Dutch Royal Information Service (RVD) said.

The authorities would not give any information about a possible motive, and the head of the school, Gerard van Miltenburg told a press conference Wednesday that he had no idea what drove the suspect.

"This is not a problem of our school, it is a problem of our society as a whole... We can not protect ourselves from madness," said Miltenburg, whose school had in the past been commended for its safety record.

"The death of Hans van Wieren has left an empty space in our school... The thought that a deadly shooting could take place here is almost unbearable," he added.

Van Miltenburg added that the student had a long history of misconduct and was facing a lengthy suspension.

Violence in Dutch schools is rare and incidents involving guns are virtually unheard of.

A survey of teachers and managers in the education sector by the Dutch education union AOb carried out in February 2003 found that half of the 430 people polled said there was an increase in violence in their schools.

The survey showed that the rise was mainly due to verbal abuse and that incidents like threats and physical violence were not on the rise.

Almost five years ago four students and a teacher were wounded at another Dutch school in Veghel when a student opened fire in a computer room. All the victims survived.

The student said he acted to avenge the reputation of his Muslim family deemed to have been sullied after his teenage sister was taken on holiday by a fellow student to Turkey.

Tuesday's shooting has stirred up the debate about safety in Dutch schools. Many are calling for stricter safety measures but ironically the Terra College had already implemented many of the measures called for.

The school had special safety protocols, involved students in safe school programs and had installed surveillance cameras.

[red oct 2]

terrible to see all these copy-cat columbine shootings. there was an incident two boys were brought into custody when somebody reported that they heard them ploting a school shooting, but they were claiming "it was only a joke".

[Hjaldar 0]

Quote[/b] ]The student said he acted to avenge the reputation of his Muslim family deemed to have been sullied after his teenage sister was taken on holiday by a fellow student to Turkey.

At least he was no computer gamer as the guys in Erfurt and Littleton were reported to be. Hopefully, nobody blames us... this time.

[Apollo 0]

This looks to be an other case though.In most cases of school killings the killer(s) target people randomly rather than specificly,in this case however the killer targetted the principal only and then ran.

What worry's me more is that the guilty person is from autochtone origin ,wich only hurts the once so liberal and plural Dutch society even more.

[Acecombat 0]

I am confused a bit here , what had that lame excuse being given got to do with the principal?

[Gadger 0]

Dutch Government going to use one of two kop outs.

1: Blame video games for this incident.

2: Blame religion. (Not saying they will blame Islam on a whole, like a certain BBC personality did recently   , but say such and such a person was a religous fanatic.

I'll eat a hat like this one   if they blame themselves.

*EDIT* Missing words/sentences and even a paragraph; typos and a few gramatical errors.

[Milkman 1]

.... 3. Ban guns

Now this is a wonderful cultural exchange. It seems that this was not a random shooting though. There was a target, and it was not completly random. They will have to get a reason out of the kid, but I am betting that this kid in question had some reason to commit the crime.

[Major Gripe 0]

I'll eat a hat like this one   if they blame themselves.

Why in Gods name would the Dutch government consider blaming themselves? Clearly the kid had a personal reason to kill the teacher, it is not a failing in Dutch society that he committed the crime, some people are just nutters.

[SPQR 0]

Where were the WMD supposed to be used by this kind of juvenile criminals ?

In Europe, We still have the chance not to be able to buy (legally) in gunstores war-like automatics weapons

The day satchels charges will be available for self-defense (it's always for self-defense) in some countries, it will be a real bloodbath

[Gadger 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why in Gods name would the Dutch government consider blaming themselves? Clearly the kid had a personal reason to kill the teacher, it is not a failing in Dutch society that he committed the crime, some people are just nutters

For allowing it to happen, they are responsible for the kid getting the firearm and being able to enter a high school with it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The question remains. DO computergames (especially ego-shooter) foster such incidents. I say yes. Fact is that even I believe that often children find satisfaction from playing such games. Satisfaction also comes from playing soccer, going fishing watching TV, but the difference is that Pavlows law taught us that this can turn into an instinct.

The instinct, or learning process, from playing ego-shooter is that it helps you to relax after stress. Some weak personalities after a while believe it is not the game that gives them relaxation but the actual shooting and killing of the game. You kill all enemies and you succeeded with the level.

Simple example, teach a monkey to play Duke Nukem and after a while the monkey will believe he suceeds if he kills!

What do you think?

[turms 0]

The question remains. DO computergames (especially ego-shooter) foster such incidents. I say yes. Fact is that even I believe that often children find satisfaction from playing such games. Satisfaction also comes from playing soccer, going fishing watching TV, but the difference is that Pavlows law taught us that this can turn into an instinct.

The instinct, or learning process, from playing ego-shooter is that it helps you to relax after stress. Some weak personalities after a while believe it is not the game that gives them relaxation but the actual shooting and killing of the game. You kill all enemies and you succeeded with the level.

Simple example, teach a monkey to play Duke Nukem and after a while the monkey will believe he suceeds if he kills!

What do you think?

I think the problem lies in the parents not giving enough attention to the kids, ecpecially nowadays it is so easy to "buy" the kid happy, instead of spending a day together.

And the parents are more eager to push the responsibility of raising children to society, while the parents work like a dog "for the kid".

Conclusion; I dont think its the videogames, its a lack of attention.

[DracoPaladore 0]

I think the problem isn't attention, but the fact that parents don't know what they are buying for their kids. Not only that, most parents feel out-of touch with technology, as well as sometimes even scared of it. That means that the parents are most of the time not there to teach what is real and what is make beleif to their children. This is sometimes the case where kids are too absorbed into another world(EQ, anyone?) and start to take it more serious than life. Do the parents know? Probobly not, especially considering how much information is stored in a vault among teenagers.

I think it's just a case of parents not knowing what they are buying for their children. As well, they do not pay attention to the item itself even in their own hands. Thats why even if the advisory warning for a game took up 7/8's of a game box, they wouldn't still notice. Parents simply do not ask "What is this?" or "Why do you want it?". Nor do they become involved with this "game" or item meaning that they themselves cannot experiance any of the aspects of it.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

The question remains. DO computergames (especially ego-shooter) foster such incidents. I say yes. Fact is that even I believe that often children find satisfaction from playing such games. Satisfaction also comes from playing soccer, going fishing watching TV, but the difference is that Pavlows law taught us that this can turn into an instinct.

The instinct, or learning process, from playing ego-shooter is that it helps you to relax after stress. Some weak personalities after a while believe it is not the game that gives them relaxation but the actual shooting and killing of the game. You kill all enemies and you succeeded with the level.

Simple example, teach a monkey to play Duke Nukem and after a while the monkey will believe he suceeds if he kills!

What do you think?

I think thats not true.

Anyone who gets confused between reality and games (no matter how nice they look) should not be allowed out in society. End of story. If games made people want to kill other people, there'd be a LOT more shootings than there are.

Fact is, there have been people going nuts and shooting up schools, workplaces, etc since before television, let alone games; at roughly the same rate (obviously population has increased).

Cinema used to be blamed for things like this. Then television. Now its games.

It's nonsense.

[Milkman 1]

I have played Doom, Unreal Tournament, Quake II & III, Half Life, Flashpoint, Halo, GTA3, GTA Vice City, The Getaway, Mafia, and so many other games that have blood, gore, and dismemberment. I do not feel like going on a killing spree because of my exposure to violence (Real and otherwise). I disagree that games make people more violent, if anything, it is a great way to relieve stress.

Irresponsable parents use games, television, and movies as excuses for not keeping their wacko children inline. The fact is that it is a load of bullshit. If a kid can't disinguish between reality and fantasy, then he/she should not belong in society.

[j-man 0]

How can people just blame games on getting kids involved into violence? Movies, other people, books, news, real life events, imagination all these thing certainly affect kids by showing violence. Violence is inevitable, i agree that it's bad, but sooner or later kids are gonna see violence and its almost inpossible to stop it

Like here in Vancouver, there was a 14-15 year old boy who cut the throat of his friend with a knife  I dont think that he player GTA vice city and decided to by a rocket launcher but found out he didnt have enough money, so he just bought a knife. It would be impossible to stop him unless someone knew about it before it happend. Death is just a part of life (although I seriously dont agree with muders, killing, etc..)

[Baron von Beer 0]

I would agree with Albert, but only in one circumstance: If the individual in question is not strong minded. This in itself though, can suggest other, deeper issues being the root of the problem. Sort of like one more drop of gas into a fire. A tiny fire in the garage can be stomped out. What happens when it reaches the ceiling though?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Van Miltenburg added that the student had a long history of misconduct and was facing a lengthy suspension.

Violence in Dutch schools is rare and incidents involving guns are virtually unheard of.

sounds like there was a serious problem with the student's character. such a tragedy indeed.

[toadlife 3]

Quote[/b] ]Why in Gods name would the Dutch government consider blaming themselves? Clearly the kid had a personal reason to kill the teacher, it is not a failing in Dutch society that he committed the crime, some people are just nutters

For allowing it to happen, they are responsible for the kid getting the firearm and being able to enter a high school with it.

So you think people should not be held responsible for the bad choices they make?

The kid is 17 years old. That's well past the age of being obligated to know right from wrong. Aside from inserting tracking chips in every person and placing video cameras in every square foot of the country, there is not much any governemnt can do about nutters like this.

Since guns are virtually unheard of in this school, how should they have been able to stop this kid from getting the gun into school anyway?

[theavonlady 2]

The student said he acted to avenge the reputation of his Muslim family deemed to have been sullied after his teenage sister was taken on holiday by a fellow student to Turkey.

What does this have to do with computer games?

[theavonlady 2]

Dutch Government going to use one of two kop outs.

1: Blame video games for this incident.

Indeed, a cop-out, at least in this case.

Quote[/b] ]2: Blame religion. (Not saying they will blame Islam on a whole, like a certain BBC personality did recently   , but say such and such a person was a religous fanatic.

Regarding Robert Kilroy-Silk, read his apology at The BBC - of all places - carefully:

"It was originally written as a response to the views of opponents to the war in Iraq that Arab States 'loathe' the West and my piece referred to 'Arab States' rather than 'Arabs'," he said."

It seems that the Sunday Express decided to lob off the word "States" (to conserve space? ).

Regarding the individual 17 year old who committed the murder, he said he did it for religious reasons. So why would there be a cop-out by the government in saying that this person is a religious fanatic?

[ozanzac 0]

Anyone know where the student got the firearm? Parents, or stolen perhaps?

Or legitimatly owned by the student in quesion.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

terrible to see all these copy-cat columbine shootings. there was an incident two boys were brought into custody when somebody reported that they heard them ploting a school shooting, but they were claiming "it was only a joke".

This is nothing like columbine, the guy was a hood and had a grudge, and he took it out on just one person. The only reason this is getting media coverage is because he used a gun, rather than a knife or his fists

[Sole 0]

.... 3. Ban guns

Now this is a wonderful cultural exchange. It seems that this was not a random shooting though. There was a target, and it was not completly random. They will have to get a reason out of the kid, but I am betting that this kid in question had some reason to commit the crime.

actually, guns are banned over here, even non-fireing replica's are considered as firearms.

As for the shooting, it's a unbelievable that someone just can't solve his problems with words. Sure, the spokesman of the shooters family said that the boy was a nice and sweet guy and that the problems of the system lead to this even... but even a bit of common sense in someone would prevent him from shooting.

Also, the guy must have been (or have friends) in the criminal circuit, because getting a gun here legally would be not that easy. And if you have ties to criminals, I doubt that it helps getting a good upbringing.

The spokesman of the shooters family said that the shooter bought the gun from a "friend" because he didn't feel safe anymore... again, I refer to the lack of common sense in the shooters mind.

Anyway, my deepest sympathies go to the relatives of the teacher and let's hope such a terrible event will never occur again. (although that's wishfull thinking, I guess)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

How can people just blame games on getting kids involved into violence? Movies, other people, books, news, real life events, imagination all these thing certainly affect kids by showing violence. Violence is inevitable, i agree that it's bad, but sooner or later kids are gonna see violence and its almost inpossible to stop it

Like here in Vancouver, there was a 14-15 year old boy who cut the throat of his friend with a knife  I dont think that he player GTA vice city and decided to by a rocket launcher but found out he didnt have enough money, so he just bought a knife. It would be impossible to stop him unless someone knew about it before it happend. Death is just a part of life (although I seriously dont agree with muders, killing, etc..)

First of all I dont believe there is a single film out there where the spectator is also the protagonist. In the game it all depends on you, you are the one to steer the outcome. Happy end or sad end depends whether you kill all of your enemies or you get killed.

The amount of identification with the character in the game is much higher to that to a person in a film.

There is children that come home after school, lock their door and untill 11 o'clock they do nothing but playing ego-shooters. The more they kill the better they get, after a while they have their own little multiplayer career. If there is a team-kill in the game and they are angry they just walk up to the guy and shoot him next timee. Problem solved. Now for a kid of 14 years or younger (or older) what do you think the learning process will be?