School shooting

[Oligo 1]

Now at my school (  I am from the netherlands to ) they are rigging up the security and they are gonna check your lockers evry day...Hmm I dont want that...But neither do i want that some nut guy can walk in school with a gun.

Hhm... Did you know that if humans are deprived of privacy, they become more violent? This phenomenon is used in the army training for example. Also, aggression levels of people increase with increasing population density (as with all mammals).

What people need to understand is that it is absolutely impossible to prevent a determined person from committing a homicide (unless we ban all contact between people and lock everybody to solitary confinement), if that person does not care about getting caught and sentenced. So beware, people, every day could be your last, every word or action of yours could incite somebody to kill you.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

And secondly, dont try to pi.s.s me off with your rudeness.

Or you'll saw off his head with a powertool addon?    

that was a yoke. You know we were talking about people not knowing how to deal with stress and accumulating agressions..

(Albert dont forget..put the smily, always put the smily)

[theavonlady 2]

And secondly, dont try to pi.s.s me off with your rudeness.

Or you'll saw off his head with a powertool addon?    

that was a yoke.

/egg on my face

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

And people who believe they are justified in shooting other people (in an illegal situation) are not influenced by games- they are going to do it anyway, proved by the fact that this kind of thing happened way before games, way before TV, etc.

This knee jerk 'Games are bad, cause young people to be more violent' bullshit happened for every single new form of media, and was never true.

Books, Photography, Film, TV and now games.

[theavonlady 2]

proved by the fact that this kind of thing happened way before games, way before TV, etc.

Would you like to show us some comparatiive statistics of unprovoked child shootings by children over the last 50 years?

I think the figures are only going up, not remaining constant.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Population is going up.

[theavonlady 2]

Population is going up.

As a percentage of population?

[Oligo 1]

Would you like to show us some comparatiive statistics of unprovoked child shootings by children over the last 50 years?

I think the figures are only going up, not remaining constant.

How are you going to adjust for violence caused by urbanization (=increasing population density)? Blaming games, movies or comics is just silly, when we are constantly cramming more and more children and adults to cities. It is a long known fact that mammals become violent in crowds. And just look at cities: The bigger the city, the more violence and crime we see per capita.

[theavonlady 2]

How are you going to adjust for violence caused by urbanization (=increasing population density)? Blaming games, movies or comics is just silly, when we are constantly cramming more and more children and adults to cities. It is a long known fact that mammals become violent in crowds. And just look at cities: The bigger the city, the more violence and crime we see per capita.

As a native born New Yawkah, I have seen the crime rate go down, as the city has gotten bigger.

I'm not saying that you can point a finger at any given item and say this is it.

I think there are many contributing factors. Making violence a more palatable norm of daily entertainment through very visual violent movies, shows, books and games is, IMO, definitely one of the contributors.

Would I assign 10%, 50% or 80% of the overall blame to this? I don't know. I'll leave that to the experts. What I do see is that children very easily immitate that which grabs their imagination. Power, might, weapons, coming up the winner and watching your opponent die a gruesome death are some of the things I believe are a catalyst to the problem.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

If it happened at all before games, that shows that games are at the very least not the most important factor.

You think school shootings happen a lot more than they do because they get hyped up. A LOT. There are very few. Newspapers try to blame anything they can think of instead of just saying 'yes, the children are fucked up losers.'

[Oligo 1]

As a native born New Yawkah, I have seen the crime rate go down, as the city has gotten bigger.

Do you mean crime rate or violent crime rate or even insane violent crime rate? I'd say crime such as theft is not affected that much by population density, but insane violent crime definitely is.

Anyway, I absolutely agree with you (I'd never have guessed that I ever agree with you on anything) that children should not be subjected to violence as much as they are now. Parents should be somehow made to understand that violent games and movies and such are not for children. I mean, even if children were not affected by such material, do we really want to corrupt the innocence of children with maiming and death? But we should not make overtly zealous political decisions that would reduce the access of adults to such materials, since adults can handle those things.

However, it might be pretty hard to limit the spread of violent material. Let's say we banned all violent material outright. Imagine the thriving black market/bootlegging market that would create...

[WhoCares 0]

No, I'm saying that people who cannot control themselves (with drink or with anything else) should not spoil it for the rest of us; and that those people who are that messed up would be so without the supposed influence of games/ whatever.

What's blindness is assuming that you are better than everyone else and that you know better than them what is good for them.

It is not only, that they can't control themself. They often don't even know that there is something wrong with them. And often enough, the people around them do not notice anything either (and not just by ignorance).

So you have basically two choices:

a) Everybody has to attend a screening (maybe once a year), were they get ratings regarding their endangerment toward violence, drugs, whatever. The results are stored on a chipcard which is checked everytime someone wants to access somehow restricted stuff.

b) The community takes some resposibility for endangered people. Easiest way to do so are general restrictions.

I prefer b) over a) as a) promotes isolation which doesn't really help...

[theavonlady 2]

If it happened at all before games,

You used the word "if". You have doubts if it did happen?

To tell you the truth, I don't recall such cases occurring from my early school days at all. Again, a factual statistical report would show this.

Quote[/b] ]that shows that games are at the very least not the most important factor.

"If".................................

Quote[/b] ]You think school shootings happen a lot more than they do because they get hyped up. A LOT. There are very few. Newspapers try to blame anything they can think of instead of just saying 'yes, the children are up losers.'

I find this Children Now report (PDF format) to be relevant and interesting.

Must go. Ciaio! Or is it Caioa? Cioaio? Argh! Chow!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Okay, I will not allow my children to play violent games and watch violent films up to a certain age. And somehow I will believe I am doing the right thing.

Sure, violent people are looking for violent films and games but couldnt it be that this is even acts as a multiplyer to their agressive energy?

During the last school shooting in Germany (which was sadly a very bloody thing) it was said that the guy actually copied his CS strategies and this was the way he screened through the building and killed those many teachers with head shots.

Again, I am not blaiming Counterstrike but it is clear that the game must have had a certain effect on the guy. These people live in dream worlds and they have trouble keeping reality and fiction apart.

We all know these kids that come out of a KungFu movie and start right away kicking the garbage bins.  

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I reiterate that children are their parents responsibility and should not be playing games/ watching movies rated too old for them.

Quote[/b] ]Avon

You used the word "if". You have doubts if it did happen?

No. It did happen. I was treying to make you think about it.

I suppose I should have said 'If it did happen, which it did..'

[Pipski 0]

'If it did happen, which it did..'

"Who here knows who Charles Whitman was? None of you dumbasses knows ..."

(that's an illustrative quote btw, no need to take umbrage)

Spree killings have happened since time immemorial, certainly since long before the genesis of computer games. They seem more common, and certainly more serious, when access to guns is a possibility (though we have that incident where a guy went postal with a samurai sword recently).

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

oh and in germany we had people going beserk with tanks, oversized trucks, bulldozers and cessna planes!

[AKM 0]

Its funny -

People blame violent video games and movies, et cetera, for desenzitizing youth. The last military video game (PC) I saw advertised on TV was Call Of Duty - other than that, you get a bunch of Console game advertisements. Yes, it can desensitize children to death - That'll happen anyways. The children will not survive if they keep screaming every time they hear something on the news about someone dying. Shit happens.

As to the CS strategies - CS is a piece of shit. That this kid was at all able to execute headshots while clearing the school (Forgive me for the use of military terminology) is truely a testiment to his skill - not the game. That he at all played the game is merely a coincidence. The strategies he used - Room clearing is the same all over the world. Doesn't matter if you practice virtually.

Now, some games desensitize youth faster. I tend to abhore games that work with freakin' Health Bars and that - Realism Is Fun (At least for me.) Things like Soldier-Of-Fortune-2 (Double Helix). That damn Ghoul-2 system nearly kicked the military-gaming-industry in the testicles, with the political whiplash and that.

Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (The two who executed the Columbine event) were reported to say in the library after shooting a Negro student in the head:

"Dude, look at this black kid's brain!"

"Cool!"

That, to me, says that they were desensitized by someone, something, or they were just to angry to give a rats ass about how anything looked or felt - psychotic behaviour with firearms.

Columbine resulted in 13 dead, 23 wounded, and the expenditure of over 200 rounds of ammunition in addition, IN ADDITION, to several bombs being detonated and emplaced. Seems odd that only 13 died. There are mitigated circumstances however - the weapons carried by Klebold and Harris jammed frequently, and they were focused more on planting explosives than gunning down students as they packed themselves into all-too-obvious killzones.

They obviously learnt that from somewheres. It is impossible to "police" the internet, and these Internet Filters do more harm than good. Its really all about choice I'd say. Parents have to watch their children for signs of angst - I'd personally take my kids shooting sometime (Assuming I ever reproduce) - They'd learn firsthand the power of a firearm and would be less likely to point it at a fellow human being therefor. Unless I manage to father (again, assuming I reproduce) some really psychotic children.

Pipski said it best about the spree killings. Sure, violent video games play a role here in some cases, but a lot of the time, it just happens. Not a whole lot you can do about it, and turning your country into a locked-down and heavily policed state is hardly the answer.

AK

Edit:

While an interesting read, that PDF that "The Avon Lady" provided is hardly fair - its obviously biased against the violent-video gamer in general.

Most military simulation games (Such as Flashpoint) do not place a emphasis on female characters - women are rarely found on the front lines - or race/gender. If you'll remember, your Sergeant for the offical campaign was a Negro - And with BOH, there is a higher proliferation of Asiatic characters.

--

AK

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

As opposed to posting continously on these forums, I suggest that the Avon Lady actually nurture and raise her children - I'm sure the overworked Father (If he hasn't left yet) would be more than happy to help.

I don't know, i could very well be wrong but i have a feeling that she, like alot of other people do most of her posting from,

say a job. Hence it doesn't necessarily interfere with nursing activities. Again, correct me if im wrong.

Now OT; I don't think Games in general have much, if anything to do with these school shootings.

[Necromancer- 0]

You are all completely going off-topic

On topic:

I did see this incident coming... well.. lets say, I'm not suprised that this happend.

Guns are indeed banned and it's very likely that "Murat" got his 50cm long gun from the "black market".

Close people to "Murat" claim him to be a "good" boy, as any person would say who would know him close.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The kid in Erfurt shot 18 people dead (13 teachers, 2 students and one policeman), each with a precise headshot. He had a pumpgun with him (to me this idea clearly comes from Ego-shooters) and his whole gun career actually started with an ego-shooter. Soon after having found this gaming passion he decided to join a shooting-club and not much later he decided to bring home weapons ilegally. And then one day he thought about it and I may assume he thought it works so fine in the game, now comes my real-life revenge. Computergames and the respawn effect make those make kids insensitive to death and killing, no surprise if you do it online all day and the graphics tend to get more realistic from year to year!

[AKM 0]

-

AK

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Apparently respawn is the problem then. "Oh, well if I brutally slaughter this group of people, they'll come back"

They don't, but welcome to Desensitization Land.

AK

AkM times have changed. 50 to 60 years ago families lived together more closely and death was more of an everyday thing, it came naturally with generation exchange. Furthermore people experienced death during wars, lack of medical supplies, all in all everyone had more chance to observe and experience death with his own eyes and emotions, death as it is in reality

Nowadays that is no longer the case. Generations live very much seperate from each other, hospitals reduce the risk of sudden death, and the logistics of the mortician has become so service oriented that we dont see people die, the only thing we see is a few death notices in the newspaper.

And yes therefore DEATH has become a totally abstract thing for the younger ones and all they learn about it is from either what we tell them, what TV tells them or what the games tell them. A child playing ego-shooters all day might be too open to adapt the image of death as being portrayed in the game!

Do you see my point?

[Baron von Beer 0]

There is truth to seperation of "real" death. How often has someone dies in your family (uncle, aunt, etc) and you did not attend the funeral because it was across the country? As much as I disliked the movie "The Beach", the part where they take the man attacked by the shark and dump him off in a tent on his own, has merit. Humans tend to try and disassociate themselves with that which makes them uncomfortable. The terminally ill used to lie in bed in thier home, visted by a doctor, untill they expired. Now, they go to a hospital or hospice, the only contact with thier family via visits. Often, they expire without family there to witness, and the next time they may see them is at the funeral. (If they decide upon an open casket.) I can say I have had much exposure to it.. various family memebers, and even some close friends. (one killed himself, one murdered, etc... none of natural cause.) I know some people who have never been to a funeral, etc. To them, death is a phone call, and a short period of sadness that quickly fades away. (Suppose it could be harder to mourn the loss of someone you haven't seen in 10 years for any duration. Afterall, you never saw them anyways.) I think when you see firsthand the motionless body, and knowing you will never speak to them again, etc, you earn a certain respect for what death entails, either to you, or anyone who loses someone they care for.

As for the "He/she was a good person, and would never do something like that!" That is kind of the default character description for anyone linked to a serious crime.. (That, or "they were quiet neighbors, and kept to themselves. )

[AKM 0]

Quote[/b] ]AkM times have changed. 50 to 60 years ago families lived together more closely and death was more of an everyday thing, it came naturally with generation exchange. Furthermore people experienced death during wars, lack of medical supplies, all in all everyone had more chance to observe and experience death with his own eyes and emotions, death as it is in reality

Nowadays that is no longer the case. Generations live very much seperate from each other, hospitals reduce the risk of sudden death, and the logistics of the mortician has become so service oriented that we dont see people die, the only thing we see is a few death notices in the newspaper.

And yes therefore DEATH has become a totally abstract thing for the younger ones and all they learn about it is from either what we tell them, what TV tells them or what the games tell them. A child playing ego-shooters all day might be too open to adapt the image of death as being portrayed in the game!

Do you see my point?

I don't understand why you are lecturing me on this.

I said:

People don't recognize that when someone is dead, they stay dead. All these games that involve reincarnation of a fighting opponent creates a mindset where the subject (person) in question simply continues killing until some preconcieved condition was met. They fail to recognize death means its over - Finito.

Of course, its entirely virtual, and hence very easy to disassociate oneself from the concept of death. As Baron Von Beer said, seeing it firsthand is differnt.

Excuse me if I seemed callous in my previous posts, I'll go back and remove them, hmm?

AK