Bas tonal-tango pack

[dm 9]

You're not getting the point Leone.

Like with your OPGWC project, if someone was to simply re-position a few trees and buildings on your Iraq island, and re-release it as their own a few days/weeks after your initial release, how mad would you be?

[ebud 18]

Is that seriously BAS' attitude? That because you guys spent a lot of time on it you don't want anyone else to use them?

Now I'm glad you read my post correctly Ebud, unlike Evis, and noticed I am talking about using not modifying. If someone wants to build an island, as use some of your textures/plants/buildings then why would this upset you guys, and how does this violate any copyright (provided they give appropriate credit of course...which they would have to as their island would require your packs...so it would be fairly obvious).

I'm not asking for myself; I have no intention of using anything from the pack. I am most suprised about the response. And course people are going to use the islands provided...that doesn't seem in any doubt to me. I am merely hypothesising that if someone wanted to make their own island then why not just say go for it, look forward to the results. It wouldn't be a slight on your work, it would be a compliment.

Anyway......awaiting flames blah blah blah

Leone. It's not a copyright issue, it's an issue of we spent all that time getting it all to this point, and would rather not have someone just re-use it all for some other island. I have given out lots of previous work in the past. the jungle everon.. remember that? I let anyone use the work I did for that. I let Tigershark hand out the old ranger and delta skins to anyone who asked since right now they are re-done again. Anyone who has asked in the past was almost always allowed to use anything. Look at the Nampack helis ST and I did. They were given out freely to people who asked.

This is different. It hasn't been out a week and Nag is getting requests from people who do not want to spend the time to make their own pbos and just want to reuse these. I can understand that, I wouldn't want to do it all again either.

It's not my decision, but an overall general consensus within BAS that at least for the time being it would be nice if people would either wait for the island to cool down before demanding to use the objects, or work on making their own island object pbo.

I personally don't think it's asking for too much to request that.

[m21man 0]

What the hell is the point of using Tonal textures/objects anyway? Who's going to make a crappy island that requires a 115 MB addon pack?!?

[Eviscerator 0]

So does this mean everytime I use a BIS model on my island I am breaking copyright? Everytime someone uses a BIS texture, they are breaking copyright? If this is the case, why aren't BIS (or more likely Codemasters)  pursuing....well, everyone? Seriously....

And if there is a difference between BIS and BAS copyright I'd love to know what it is (un-sarcastic). I would have thought that BIS (read Codemasters) would be stricter on intellectual property than some fans making a few addons?

BIS gave permission for their OFP:CWC and patch models/textures to be edited. There was a post by Maruk stating this ages ago. And no, its not about copyright, but the copyright does back up our wishes of people asking permission before using our own creations.

[ebud 18]

Personally I think it just a timing issue. Right after a release this big, that took 1/2 a year to finish, it just doesn't feel right to just hand it out. Nag was getting requests even before the release. I think after everything cools down, and some time has passed and we have had some time to rework a lot of things, it would be ok, but not a couple of days after release. It's just a courtesy and timing issue.

[Guest]

Of course it's not asking too much. If I was to use your objects of course I would ask. And I do understand what you are saying...really. I was arguing the point because I can't see how it is a copyright issue, and don't like people trying to hide behind it when it isn't the case (unless I am totally wrong about this...I will of course retract if I am wrong about permission needing to be sort if the files remain unmodified).

If you are getting requests for un-binarized stuff....that's totally your perogative (sp?), I guess I didn't really make it clear I was talking about people using stuff in the same way people use Agent Smith's or MapFacts work. Binarized, pbo'd and with a download link. I wasn't talking about retexturing/repathing/unbinarized. That I do consider modifying. There's no reason to have that stuff if you don't want to change anything, for sure.

Maybe there's someone out there who has been working on a really cool island, and using object from your pbos (binarized, all unchanged etc etc) would really be the icing on the cake.....who knows?

Edit...gees, if I typed quicker. Evis got a link to the Maruk post? I'd love to read it. "For those that came in late..."

[ebud 18]

I personally don't want this to become a major issue, and I'm sure most of the other people wouldn't either. It's not worth the headache. Just let it pass, and give the release some time to cool off and us some time to think about how to improve the island, then I'm sure that by that time things will be different.

[Eviscerator 0]

Edit...gees, if I typed quicker. Evis got a link to the Maruk post? I'd love to read it. "For those that came in late..."

Not a clue where it is, i read it about a year ago...

[Jocko Flocko 0]

When running The Jungle Ops COOP map with 8 people playing on our server, the server FPS never drops below 30, so the island isn't any more intensive on the server than any other Nogova map. Client side setups are the most important, and that map makers spawn AI at specific intervals, rather than have a 100 AI running around all at the same time on the map.

Excellent island.

[Sweet_pup 0]

About Leone and his island-

Personally I think that using BAS items on your island, is bullshit. It's their baby, they put a shitload of effort into it. You could have at least sent them a polite E-mail asking if you could use their textures/items in an island and give them credit in the read me.

On the other hand. If you were to go ahead and make this island anyway, I, for one, would not be downloading it. Hopefully any loyal OFP player wouldn't download a map with unauthorized use of textures.

Leone, I'm not calling you a theif dude. Nothin like that. But it wouldn't be wise or respectful to turn right around and use their textures in a work of your own.

Sweet_pup

[dinger 1]

It is a copyright issue Leone.

It's not necessarily one they can sue for a lot of money on, but they do retain the copyright over anything they produce and they have authority over how it gets distributed.

For example, if I were to write a set of artillery scripts, and post them somewhere, I would still retain the copyright on them. So if someone were to take them and sell them to a government agency without my authorization, I could claim copyright and seek damages in a civil court.

And, sure I understand where they're coming from. It's also a quality-control issue.

[vektorboson 8]

Personally I think it just a timing issue. Right after a release this big, that took 1/2 a year to finish, it just doesn't feel right to just hand it out. Nag was getting requests even before the release. I think after everything cools down, and some time has passed and we have had some time to rework a lot of things, it would be ok, but not a couple of days after release. It's just a courtesy and timing issue.

Well, I think that your timing argument is a little wrong because as you see it takes a lot of time to make an island.

Therefore everyone who asks now about being permitted to use you objects/textures for their islands will not be finished before next week.

Hey, it will take a month or much more before they can release it!

So, it will take some time until you permit your objects/textures being used. Then again it will take much more time to place all the objects and textures and fine-tuning and everything.

Well, those who release an island in a week or so, they will be flamed on, or they have to hear something like: "Your island is crap" a.s.o. And EVERYBODY knows that they used your objects and didn't take the time to make their own objects/textures.

So what are you worrying about?

I am always glad when someone uses any of my stuff. And I always write that nobody needs explicit permission from me to use my stuff. Hey, you even use my Downwash Script for the OPFOR, was a big surprise to me.

Well, you should enjoy all positive feedback you get for the two islands and objects and textures, they fit the atmosphere. And always think, that your stuff being used is a compliment rather than robbery

[Nagual 0]

Nagual - How does the CAS work? I've called Strikes through the menu, and can hear the craft flying overhead, but have no idea how you direct their strike. Maybe a little explanation in the briefing, or have I missed something simple?

And HOW ON EARTH did you manage to make 8 quality sp/mp missions in 4 days? Do you use templates?

CAS, is best to wait for next version, its also only there for precision mode (which needs map click to mark target). The cas dialogs are in the island pbos, still sorting out the mission scripting side.

Templates yes. Last thing i will prolly do before taking a break will be finishing up the template with a nice tutorial. All that fancy text stuff in intros takes about 2 mins to setup.

[ebud 18]

I still think that asking to use anything for another project, regardless what it is or who did it right after or even before release is just bad taste even if it is in the best intentions.

I'm sorry, but no amount of persuassion or well thought out rebuttals will make a difference at this point.

I know how long it takes to make an island... I've worked on 3 of them, and I'm sorry if it offends anyone that right now we would like to hold onto what we worked so hard on and not let just anyone use them. People still will, but I think it's more than fair that we hold onto what little rights we have as the creators of the project. If people make a kickass map with the work, and release it, there is really nothing we can do to stop it. Again I will go back to the old "we spent the time working on it. " argument and stick to it as it's all I really have. And if people don't agree with it fine, it's not just my decision. And like I did say, after some time has past, I'm sure things will loosen up, but thats not just my decision to make. I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, just trying to hold off on letting go of something that was a labor of love (why the hell else would we give up so much time) to let it get ripped apart and used by god knows who for god knows what. You put yourself in our shoes. Imagine getting 4-5 hours of sleep a night for weeks upon weeks to get something like this done, you give up soooo much of your free time to work on something you can hope to be proud of. Then after it's released you get people who care nothing about all that and just want to use what you just released because either they like it, can't do better, don;t have the time to make their own, or are jsut too lazy to make their own. I'll sound like a big whiner, and I'm sure it will be perceived as such, and say that it's not right. If I had done all the work myself I would say go ahead, but I didn't, and more people than not do not want to give it all out at this time as we still have work to do on it, and have more mileage left in it for our own purposes. If the whole team suddenly changes their minds fine.

[Donnervogel 0]

hmm I didn't follow that "use someone elses work" discussion in every detail. Just overlooked it. So sorry if that was answered already.

I'd just like to know if you have problems with it when I edit your work for personal use only without asking for permission.

[Guest]

It is a copyright issue Leone.

It's not necessarily one they can sue for a lot of money on, but they do retain the copyright over anything they produce and they have authority over how it gets distributed.

For example, if I were to write a set of artillery scripts, and post them somewhere, I would still retain the copyright on them.  So if someone were to take them and sell them to a government agency without my authorization, I could claim copyright and seek damages in a civil court.

And, sure I understand where they're coming from.  It's also a quality-control issue.

I am aware that they retain copyright. That's not what I was discussing....it's the extent of that copyright. Authority over modification....sure, 100%, authority over distribution....the ol' "once you've put it on the net" discussion, authority over use without modification....thin ice I think. The example you cite is irrelvent because MONEY is involved...that's a different arguement. If someone made an island that require the BAS stuff, then sold it for money....yes, sue their asses off by all means. It's different when money is involved, and courts generally recognise this (there are exceptions of course, don't bother posting them). Copyright is automatic, and is there to safeguard intellectual property. I still can't see how this principal is violated.

[Sweet_pup 0]

Christ guys,

Look here's what BAS has given us for free-

H-6s

H-47s

H-60s

Delta Force

US ARMY Rangers

H-58 Pack

OPFOR

TONAL

SOAR

JAM!!!!

I'm sure I left something out, but that's alot of shit to be given, with nothing in return. If BAS doesn't wan't me to use a fraction of the objects they worked their asses off to make, that's cool by me. As long as I can play with the rest of the addons.

If you don't let this go, they could decide to stop giving...  

Do you want that?  

Sweet_pup

[dinger 1]

The extent is absolute. They have authority over modification and distribution. "once its in the net" doesn't mean they surrender copyright. The only way to do that these days is to explicitly state so or wait 100 years (it used to be 75, but now we use copyrights to protect corporate interests).

---

So, no word on the map grid?

---

I don't think it's "Bad Taste" to ask to use anything. In fact, I think it's the proper way to go about it. And many people believe that we're all working towards the same goals. You can refuse at any time, and it's in your rights to do so. It is bad taste _not to ask_ and simply to use.

[Eviscerator 0]

I am always glad when someone uses any of my stuff. And I always write that nobody needs explicit permission from me to use my stuff. Hey, you even use my Downwash Script for the OPFOR, was a big surprise to me.

We did actually ask for your permission to use your downwash scripts in our addons quite a few months ago, and were given permission, we just didnt use it in the blackhawks/chinooks, however for reasons of playability we decided to use it on the OPFOR helicopters.

[Sweet_pup 0]

Quote[/b] ]So, no word on the map grid?

Whatchu talkin bout dinger?

Sweet_pup

[ebud 18]

I don't think it's "Bad Taste" to ask to use anything.  In fact, I think it's the proper way to go about it. And many people believe that we're all working towards the same goals. You can refuse at any time, and it's in your rights to do so.  It is bad taste _not to ask_ and simply to use.

You are correct, but my personal opinion is that it is bad taste to ask so soon after a release. It's like going to a funeral and asking if you can use the deceased's car since they won't be using it. bad analogy, but you get my drift.

[walker 0]

The only way to do that these days is to explicitly state so or wait 100 years

Hi Dinger

Err that might be US I think in UK it is 50 years after the death of the last contributer.

To Leone

Copyright is absolute you can not use any part of an object without infringing it.

In music it is an infringment of copyright if you use more than 3 notes of a melody.

It is that strict.

Consult any EULA involved to see what additional rights the copyright holder has let you have or has limited. If there is no EULA then copyright is to the MAX of the law.

Copyright Law is one of the toughest sets of legal powers there are. Thousands of lawyers for record companies, film producers, TV companies, game companies, software houses etc. Have spent the last 100 years and Billions of dolars making it so. Their business depends on it do not mess with it trust me.

The answer is simple ask the copright holder first and never make assumptions.

Kind Regards Walker

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]So, no word on the map grid?

Whatchu talkin bout dinger?

http://www.intothevoid.com/vampires/gary1.jpg

Sweet_pup

It might have something to do with making the BAS island cooperate with the CoC UA and vice versa. Nothing to worry about.

You look pretty mean in that picture. j/k

[Jocko Flocko 0]

Heres a quick COOP mission I put together. Uses BAS Littlebirds, Blackhawks, Delta/Rangers, and the new Island and OPFOR.

http://members.rogers.com/ofp...._I1.pbo

[Wadmann 0]

Time for my two cents worth here!

First of all, let me congratulate BAS on a simply marvelous world that they have created for all of us! I have only briefly been able to explore this island but I have been amazed at the sights that I have seen thus far.

I had no problems installing the island into a mod folder and running it the first time through. The trick: READING THE README FILE.

In regards to the lag issue that many have reported, I have experienced nominal amounts considering that I have a PIII 733 with 512m RAM and a GForce 4400. I did not check my settings nor did I change them but everything runs as smoothly as one would expect with a system with my specs (the included missions are very playable). I did experience the issue of not being able to add/modify units unless I zoomed out in the map editor though but as this was noted in the README and in this thread I was prepared for it.

As far as others using the object that BAS created, I must confess that I have wavered on this issue but came to this conclusion: All that BAS has asked for in return for creating and distributing the great island is for others to ask permission to use their creations. I feel that this is a small price (read BARGAIN) to pay in order to use this island. At first I was with the mindset that “Imitation (in this case using) is the sincerest form of flattery†but for what it cost BAS in terms of time and effort I feel that they deserve something for their work. And what did they ask for? Nothing more than to respect their intellectual property and ask prior to using their objects.  I had just read about a similar issue currently involving some individuals that were making a Normandy map. Of course it turned into an ugly flame war that really benefited no one.  I feel that it is best to heed the requests of the add on makers to not use their objects unless given direct permission or risk having the add on makers only releasing their product to a few close friends and not to the community at large. As encrypting PBOs has not (yet?) been developed, keeping their creations out of the hands of the general public may be their only option to prevent unauthorized use of their add ons.

The way that the community goes about detailing the bugs in an add on is, to me, somewhat bothersome. It seems that some treat it as a competition to see how quickly or how many they can spot before the next person does. Let me just remind everyone that it is a hell of a lot easier to spot a flaw than to create the entire project without a flaw! And again referring back to the README that everyone should have read, I believe it stated that there was an intent to correct/update from the very beginning. The very fact that it is a version 1.0 tells me right off that it is not final and to expect some enhancements in the future. BAS has stated in this thread that they are open to reports of flaws and bugs (they even provide space on their web site to document them, how many other add on makers do that?) but some of the reports are IMHO rather minor and for the overall playability and ambience of the island they have done a great job by balancing these factors against the time it would have taken to produce a flawless product. Just take the time to read this entire thread and you will see that some of the BAS members would have preferred to wait to perfect the project but decided against it. Why did they release something that by their own standards was not perfect? Do you think they did it so that they can endure endless criticisms of not living up to their own standards and accusations of not â€giving†parts of their project away without permission? NO! They did it to give, without compensation, something to the OFP community that had been lacking for some time now.

In conclusion, all that I can really say is that I do appreciate the hard work and countless hours that BAS has put into all of their projects and I look forward to many, many hours of OFP gaming on this new island. For those that think it has too many flaws or that they would have done it differently/better, you have two options: Do not download it or make a better island/units/missions/campaign on your own! I know that I do not possess the skill or time to do the latter and in spite of all the bugs noted I still downloaded it (over a 56k modem) and will continue to use it in spite of any bugs noticed as I feel that in it’s present state it is still one of, if not the best island in OFP.

                                           Wadmann