Far cry's unscripted ai behaviour

[ralphwiggum 6]

a true AI capability is pronounced when you just put an AI on a map and see what it does. OFP managed to prove its AI to be able to work, not in some scripted manner.

[Longinius 1]

Well, so does the Cry engine AI. Since it reacts to its environments and not to predetermined events, it would actually do quite well on its own in any environment.

The aspect of groupleaders and radio operators influencing the AI actions, together with the group casualty rate, only makes it all the more interesting.

[Heatseeker 0]

OPFs a.i. is great in some aspects, like they are very independant and organised, they comunicate alot with their leader, report enemy positions, get ammo from there, get healed here, etc.

But they are also very bad in some other ways, like they cant use cover of buildings, trees and stuff, they see and run throu walls, they have built in NVG and scopes atached to the eyes and they also use strange combat tactics like zig zaging instead of moving from cover to cover using supressive fire and stuff like that .

[denoir 0]

Actually, you are very much wrong. The OFP AI does not see through buildings or objects. Unless you make excessive nosie, it can't detect you in the bushes either. Have you ever played the campaign? Half of the game is crawling around the bushes hoping the AI does not detect you.

As for the combat tactics, the thing really missing is the use of supressive fire. Otherwise it's much better than what I've seen in other games. The AI actually tries to outflank you and get you from the rear.

[shadow 6]

Actually, you are very much wrong. The OFP AI does not see through buildings or objects. Unless you make excessive nosie, it can't detect you in the bushes either. Have you ever played the campaign? Half of the game is crawling around the bushes hoping the AI does not detect you.

As for the combat tactics, the thing really missing is the use of supressive fire. Otherwise it's much better than what I've seen in other games. The AI actually tries to outflank you and get you from the rear.

Yeah, I just replayed (and finnished) the CWC-campaign.

The AI is blind as a bat if you're lying prone in a bush.

I killed 4 soldiers with a M21. They were 5 to 15 meters away from me. None of them understood where the shots came from.

All that Far Cry trailer show is scripted events and nothing on how the game actually plays.

I like the eyecandy in it, but I've said it before and I'm saying it again:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">eyecandy =! gameplay

[NurEinMensch 0]

You guys are overly critical towards anything that "might" be a rival to OFP.

[shadow 6]

I can't see any similarity between Far Cry and OFP when it comes to gaming.

They have two things in common as far as I know:

1: large landscape (only Far Cry has "checkpoints" or loadpoints if you will)

2: You can drive vehicles

How the games are gameplay-wise is a different matter.

I think the only other game that really resembles OFP must be Söldner (though looks to be a bit more arcade-ish), but still many things in common. Can you image a gameworld twice the size of Malden, Everon and Kolgujev put together?  

EDIT:I'm not critical towards anything that "might" be a rival to OFP. I'm very DISAPPOINTED that 2 years have gone and still no real competition to this genre OFP has started  

[Placebo 29]

Yup same here, I want there to be rivals to Opf, that can only be a good thing for "our" genre, will push Bis to do outstanding work (I'm sure they will anyways but it's nice to be challenged a bit), and also if there are true rivals it might get rid of some of the dross that is still being released trying to cash in on Opf's genre.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

The only impressive thing about this game is the AI - IF it is (as it says in the trailed) completely unscripted.

They DO use cover and concealment - they aren't perfect - but even humans make mistakes like that sometimes. OFP's AI don't see you in bushes until they detect you - and THEN they can see straight through them. Fair enough emptying mags at a bush where they last saw an enemy - but they don't do that, they just put one round straight through the bush, exactly where you are. Whether or not they detect you is also to do with what soldier you are - they can't detect spec ops / snipers nearly as well as normal infantry.

Don't get me wrong - OFPs AI is excellent in general - but there is definitely room for improvement. Which could come from a similar system as how the 'finding + using cover' part of far cry's AI works.

[denoir 0]

I agree with you, I'm just pointing out that OFP AI ain't that bad as Heatseeker presents it to be. You also have to remember that this is a developing technology. I'm sure we will see further improvements in AI in OFP2.

Furthermore, one must understand that writing AI for such an open unrestricted system is much more difficult than for a standard 3d shooter. The standard 3d shooter AI fight in relatively confined spaces where the biggest challange is to hide behind furniture.

[denoir 0]

Check out this article on OFP AI

Quote[/b] ]Stepping out of turn

If there's a genre at the opposite end of the spectrum from the turn-based game, it's the first-person shooter. Ondrej Spanel and Jiri Martinek are programmers for Bohemia Interactive Studios in Prague, Czech Republic. They're responsible for the A.I. behind Codemasters' Operation Flashpoint?last year's critically acclaimed first-person tactical military shooter. According to Martinek, the question is actually not an issue of genre. "There's only good or bad A.I. in games," explains Martinek. "The primary issues that developers have to resolve remain the same. We never wanted to be limited by the boundaries of conventional gaming genres. Operation Flashpoint is a first-person game, but it's also got action, strategy, and simulation elements."

What Martinek is getting at is the genre convergence taking place as games and game A.I.'s become more sophisticated. Even now, a strategy game like Civilization III is easily distinguishable from a first-person game like Quake III, but as bleeding edge stock technology cuts down on development time and genres merge in virtual worlds, we'll see more hybrid games that combine aspects of multiple genres. In the meantime, Operation Flashpoint is already pushing convergent A.I. technology of its own.

"One thing we are particularly proud of is our 'spotting model,'" says Spanel. "It considers an object's size and camouflage, so you are much more visible in open areas than near trees." Pretty impressive on its own when you consider that the game is modeling an exclusively external environment with varying terrain and gradation, but also a little intimidating when you realize this means "just running your tail off" won't save you from a pack of sharp shooting grunts.

"Our A.I. model also includes picking up on indirect clues," says Spanel. "For example, if a patrolling unit hears shooting or sees another unit get killed, it knows there must be an enemy near and starts reacting. First it lies down to be safe, then looks around and searches for the intruder. This includes the ability to cue off both audio and visual detection, and is affected by parameters like experience, equipment, light conditions, and the number of obstacles between observer and target. We introduced various delays, hand trembling, and observation errors to simulate every single limitation that we could think of human soldiers having."

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Yes, good points + article. I think a lot of the 'problems' with AI in OFP stem from the limited CPU power available: measuring lots of different variables against each other for each unit becomes exponentially harder work on the CPU as more variables are added. So I do realise OFP did probably as well as possible given the current state of technology at the time - but with the newer and faster average PC by the time OFP2 comes out ...

[AirwolfPL 0]

OFP AI is of course pretty impressive in many aspects (for example when Tank gets destroyed AI soldiers are boarding AI APC without any orders given by player, I've been impressed many times by officers boarding car I've stolen to move faster etc). Communication between team members is pretty good. But most of the time their behaviour is pretty strange and annoying - not too natural...

I would like to see some elements Far Cry's AI engine seems to feature in OFP as well...

PS.: Shadow, you're wrong about the scripted events

saying "And you have to be blind to not see all that scripted events like scratching his erm back". Of course such "at ease" animations like scratching "back" or smoking cigarette are prepared by game's designers, but it doesn't mean that they're scripted in the sense of "mission making". Unscripted behaviour means that during the gameplay AI thinks for it's own - takes it's own routes, picks up own targets, reacts to the events etc. OFP already has elements of such unscipted behaviour, but it seems Far Cry's AI engine will be much more advanced than OFP's one.

[shadow 6]

PS.: Shadow, you're wrong about the scripted events

saying "And you have to be blind to not see all that scripted events    like scratching his erm back". Of course such "at ease" animations like scratching "back" or smoking cigarette are prepared by game's designers, but it doesn't mean that they're scripted in the sense of "mission making".

Exactly what was I wrong about?

I said the idle behaviour was scripted. Wether it is inserted via a mission-designer or is inserted deeper in the "game-code" makes no difference. It's still scripted.

Do you actually think that no trigger/script triggers the events you mentioned?

I think there was an AI-unit that walked from A to B then started a conversation with C. Do you really think that A walked to B all by itself?

Quote[/b] ] Unscripted behaviour means that during the gameplay AI thinks for it's own - takes it's own routes, picks up own targets, reacts to the events etc.

Yes. And that portion has nothing to do with the events during idle that I commented on.

Quote[/b] ]OFP already has elements of such unscipted behaviour, but it seems Far Cry's AI engine will be much more advanced than OFP's one.

Only time will tell

OFP is holding up just fine to the current engines if you ask me.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you actually think that no trigger/script triggers the events you mentioned?

I think there was an AI-unit that walked from A to B then started a conversation with C. Do you really think that A walked to B all by itself?

Its certainly possible. Ever played Half life? Seen the way the scientists and barneys talk to each other? Its only an extension of that type of thing.

[Longinius 1]

"I think there was an AI-unit that walked from A to B then started a conversation with C. Do you really think that A walked to B all by itself? "

Yeah, because thats exactly how it works. And the next time you play the level, he might go to location D or E, and talk to person F if he happens to be there.

The AI is reacting to different triggers or anchors as they call them in their surroundings. And the actions chosen are based on several factors available to the AI, so it wont repeat the same actions again and again.

[ralphwiggum 6]

i'd have to judge whether Far Cry AI are good enough or not when it comes out, but without user-friendly testing grounds like OFP, I'm still skeptical.

the movies showed some instances of AI utilizing covers, but who knows if that is possible due to designation of "covers" or not?

[Major Fubar 0]

Well, I'm going against the flow here: I think that game looks incredible! And you can bet your sweet ass that if it has MP coop mode it'll be in my collection the day it hits the shelves here.

(Yes, it looks more of a shooter than the realistic feel of OFP, but what the hey. The graphics look pretty, and the gameplay seems good - although the llittle glimpse of first person you get does seem pretty disappointing compared to the overhead shots)

[Bluesman 0]

Agree with Fubar. Not every game needs to be a clone of OFP for me to enjoy it, it doesn't even have to be remotelly realistic. Just a fun game you can enjoy. Realism is for when I shut down my PC .

I hope the demo is detailed enough to use as a basis for purchase. It's tough as it is with so many nice games coming out soon .

BM

[shadow 6]

Yeah, because thats exactly how it works. And the next time you play the level, he might go to location D or E, and talk to person F if he happens to be there.

The AI is reacting to different triggers or anchors as they call them in their surroundings. And the actions chosen are based on several factors available to the AI, so it wont repeat the same actions again and again.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I can do exactly the same thing in OFP and it's still called scripting.

You can do it with triggers too.

Ever heard the term 'random'?

[denoir 0]

The difference, Shadow is on what level it is implemented. In OFP you can do this through OFP script. In far cry, it's built in directly in the AI routines.

[Heatseeker 0]

Technicaly nobody could say that flashpoints a.i. is bad but from a player point of view we can say it is frustrating to fight against them and sometimes with them, their behaviour is also very robotish and not so hard to predict and the way they interact with the environment isnt really the best ive seen, its just not much fun to fight them in forests or urban areas. And then theres the individual radio thingy, i would like to hear them shouting or talking, or to see the comander scream "take cover, enemy ahead" and see them run to the closest cover available and then advancing from cover to cover while using covering fire, you know more natural, realistic and tactical behaviour but ofcourse totally unscripted, hopefully we will see this in OPF2 .

[Dauragon 0]

Ever heard the term 'random'?  

what is "exactly" the definition of random in computer terms

[shadow 6]

Ever heard the term 'random'?  

what is "exactly" the definition of random in computer terms  

Quote[/b] ]Mathematics & Statistics: Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.

Look it up at http://www.dictionary.com  

OFP's mission editor has built-in randomizer for unit presence and position:

Possibility of presence (slider)

and

Placement radius (specified in meters)

[shadow 6]

In OFP you can do this through OFP script. In far cry, it's built in directly in the AI routines.

Do we know this for sure in Far Cry or are you speculating?

Do you know of any articles/interviews concerning the AI?

I'm just curious and would like to know more about the Far Cry-AI before I comment anymore on that issue