Schwarzenegger to run for governor

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Sep. 16 2003,07:31)]I don't disagree that punch cards are an anachronism, and should be removed from the electoral system. However, if the California ACLU was so goddamn interested in punch cards pre-recall, then why wasn't this suit brought prior to Gray Davis' reelection (during which punch cards were used in the same counties as named in the suit)?

actually, this was not unexpected move for ACLU, but the result was unexpected. as soon as the recall petition limits were met, ACLU announced that they were going to challenge on the basis of equal protection.

Actually, what? Actually, nothing. You've clearly stated in your post what the ACLU's motives are. And spare me with the 'surprise' over the 9th Circuit handing down a hare-brained decision on a politically charged case. A judge in Alabama is going to lose his bench for posting the 10 Commandments in his courthouse, but the justices of the 9th Circuit will keep their jobs, even after fucking California's electoral process in the ass for the sake of political ideology. Is something wrong with this picture?

[ralphwiggum 6]

ACLU's argument was that with two different voting system, it is not going to be an equal representation in strictest sense. from what i read from other sources, the exact wordings were extracted from that supreme court decision about 2000 election.

ACLU already argued their point at a lower court, and upon rejected, went to appeals.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

ACLU's argument was that with two different voting system, it is not going to be an equal representation in strictest sense. from what i read from other sources, the exact wordings were extracted from that supreme court decision about 2000 election.

ACLU already argued their point at a lower court, and upon rejected, went to appeals.

I know what their argument is, I just want to know why there isn't a lynch mob at their door, asking politely for an explanation as to why they shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional right to vote.

[hellfish6 7]

You're asking why what may be the most apathetic state in the most apathetic country in the world isn't rioting because they can't vote??

[ralphwiggum 6]

@ Sep. 16 2003,08:01)]I know what their argument is, I just want to know why there isn't a lynch mob at their door, asking politely for an explanation as to why they shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional right to vote.

it wasn't taken away, just delayed/reinforced with better counting measures.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

You're asking why what may be the most apathetic state in the most apathetic country in the world isn't rioting because they can't vote??

Some people don't deserve democracy.

[ralphwiggum 6]

@ Sep. 16 2003,08:44)]

You're asking why what may be the most apathetic state in the most apathetic country in the world isn't rioting because they can't vote??

Some people don't deserve democracy.

Homer Simpson: When will this country learn? Democracy doesn't work...

(from the "Bear Patrol" episode that ended up with illegal alien deportation)

[Burl 0]

One of these days, California will become their own Socialist State and declare Independence. Fine with me.

[toadlife 3]

You're asking why what may be the most apathetic state in the most apathetic country in the world isn't rioting because they can't vote??

We can't be too apathetic. We managed to collect 1,200,000 signatures for the recall.

[ralphwiggum 6]

out of 36 million residents that's about 3%. considering that there are residents who cannot vote, i say at most 10%.

[denoir 0]

@ Sep. 16 2003,08:01)]I know what their argument is, I just want to know why there isn't a lynch mob at their door, asking politely for an explanation as to why they shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional right to vote.

It's not their constitutional right. Their right is to vote when it's election time.

Try to announce a new presidential election today and see if it goes through.

On the contrary, those that want Davis out are the lynch mob. Is that the way democracy is supposed to work? A few unsatisfied loud citizens dictating the election regulations?

[ralphwiggum 6]

On the contrary, those that want Davis out are the lynch mob. Is that the way democracy is supposed to work? A few unsatisfied loud citizens dictating the election regulations?  

there is a law that enabled recall under condition that certain percentage of population's petition can bring it about. i think it was 2.5% or 0.5%.

thus it pretty much screws any governor. this election is unique that there were actually enough people that signed the petition.

of course, with Sweden's recent decision, we know that rule of mass is not always the best, and with a small fraction of population bringing things up it could get ugly from this point on.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Sep. 16 2003,08:01)]I know what their argument is, I just want to know why there isn't a lynch mob at their door, asking politely for an explanation as to why they shouldn't be allowed to exercise their constitutional right to vote.

It's not their constitutional right. Their right is to vote when it's election time.

Try to announce a new presidential election today and see if it goes through.

On the contrary, those that want Davis out are the lynch mob. Is that the way democracy is supposed to work? A few unsatisfied loud citizens dictating the election regulations?  

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right- however, the entire reason this fiasco occurred was because the right to 'recall' a governor is a right reserved by the people of California in their state Constitution. Now, like it or not, its their law, and rules is rules, or so they say (at least when 'they' benefit).

Also, I'm fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the recall of Davis- I don't like the guy, but I'm also aware that it's a calculated power grab by the Californian GOP. Still, you have to sleep in the bed you make- and that means no unconstitutional delays of a lawful election. In my humble, moderately moderate opinion, both sides should be made to stand with their noses to their respective corners so they can think about what they're doing to a state with enough problems all ready in the name of political expediency.

[denoir 0]

Ok. I didn't know that they actually had legal grounds for the recall.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

How is the pron star lady doing in the polls?

If she wins, I'm moving

[ralphwiggum 6]

let's see, ACLU's lawsuit porompted 3 panel judge to delay the election, and yesterday was the hearing for 11 panel review.

i managed to watch most of it, and must admit the the best part was in the end when ACLU lawyer had slip of the tounge and said "circus" instead of "circuit".  

today is the ruling day and CNN just reported that election will go on on Oct 7th(2 weeks from today)click here for news

Arnie is feeling the heat and is going into mudsliing. his latest  commercial said Davis turned a $10 billion surplus into a $38 billion deficit, increased the so-called car tax 300 percent and saw 300,000 manufacturing jobs lost in California since Davis became governor in 1999.  

A woman appearing on the commercial said allowing undocumented immigrants to obtain drivers' licenses "makes no sense at all. If they're here illegally, why should they be able to drive legally?"

well, maybe it's just me, but if some leader turns gov't surplus to deficit, then it qualifies for recall?(hmm....Bush, i'm watching ya!)

and speaking of car tax, as mentioned earlier in the thread, it was temporary cut, and was allowed to go back up if the gov't deficit occured. back then no one cared and now they are all crying about it. furthermore, there was an ironic twist. a few days after Davis signed the driver's license bill, an illegal alien without a driver's license ran into a bus stop. no one was killed, but she did not learn how to drive properly.

and talk about political savvyness.

Quote[/b] ] The man who bankrolled the California recall effort is insisting that one of the two leading Republicans in the governor's race drop out. And to make it happen, he's issuing a political threat.

Congressman Darrell Issa is afraid that Republican state senator Tom McClintock and actor Arnold Schwarzenegger will split conservative support, and guarantee a victory for Democratic Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante if California's governor is recalled.

So now Issa said one of the two Republicans must drop out, or he'll dramatically reverse his stance and start calling for the recall to be defeated.  

yeah, sure it's for Californians, not for political reasons.

http://www.nbc4.tv/politics/2504488/detail.html

[toadlife 3]

I'm with Issa all the way. I'm one of the 1.2 million that signed the recall petition, but if one the of the Republicans doesn't drop out, I'm voting against the recall alltogether.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Arnie is feeling the heat and is going into mudsliing. his latest  commercial said Davis turned a $10 billion surplus into a $38 billion deficit, increased the so-called car tax 300 percent and saw 300,000 manufacturing jobs lost in California since Davis became governor in 1999.  

That's not necessarily mudslinging. It's an attack on bad policy and implementation, but mudslinging generally includes an attack on a person's character as well. Example: "In 1983, Gray Davis was caught in bed with five underage Asian boys who were also employees in a clothing sweatshop Davis had set up to help his friends in the Medellin Cartel launder drug money. Are you sure you want a drug-using pedophile as your Governor?"

Now THAT'S mudslinging, if I do say so myself.

[ralphwiggum 6]

oopsie. i should have said negative campaign.

[ralphwiggum 6]

and Bustamante is going on mudslinging too.

http://www.nbc4.tv/politics/2505331/detail.html

Quote[/b] ]Bustamante's ad shows him addressing a campaign rally and saying, "Arnold doesn't share our values. He won't fight for our health care, our neighborhoods, our jobs. He doesn't live in our world. He lives on Planet Hollywood. There is a long list of candidates, finding my name won't be easy, but I need you to do it, because I need your vote for governor."

but then again,

Quote[/b] ]Schwarzenegger spokesman Todd Harris called the ad "ridiculous and desperate."

"If by quote unquote our values Cruz Bustamante is referring to selling out the people's interest and pandering to every special interest group who's willing to write him a big enough check, then yes, he is correct, we do not share those values," Harris said.

what is funny is that under current law, a candidate can only collect upto 21,000 USD in contributions. and Arnold is no way away from such "special interest group" donations.

[toadlife 3]

I can do some mudslinging myself...

Quote[/b] ]"Arnold doesn't share our values.

Of course he doesn't share those values. If you want to know all about Cruz Bustamentes values, then do a google search and read some 'MEChA' literature.

Quote[/b] ]He won't fight for our health care, our neighborhoods, our jobs.

Translation: He won't turn our state into a full-fledged socialistic bottom feeeder friendly state where illegal immigrants are given free health care and hard working people have to sell their houses and buy smaller ones because the property taxes are too high. He also wont guarantee that government workers get to keep their jobs indefinitely, despite their horrid performance and/or the lack of a need for their position.

Quote[/b] ]He doesn't live in our world. He lives on Planet Hollywood.

This coming from a career polititian who, being a second generation American, claims to 'identify with the immigrant population'. I sure hope arnold doesn't live in his world.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I can do some mudslinging myself...

Quote[/b] ]"Arnold doesn't share our values.

Of course he doesn't share those values. If you want to know all about Cruz Bustamentes values, then do a  google search and read some 'MEChA' literature.

and so will I

does anyone give a serious weight to them? When i was an undergrad, i really didn't give a damn, and as a graduate student give none.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]He won't fight for our health care, our neighborhoods, our jobs.

Translation: He won't turn our state into a full-fledged socialistic bottom feeeder friendly state where illegal immigrants are given free health care and hard working people have to sell their houses and buy smaller ones because the property taxes are too high. He also wont guarantee that government workers get to keep their jobs indefinitely, despite their horrid performance and/or the lack of a need for their position.

universal truth : gov't workers = workers who trade higher salary for job safety.

you'll be surprised how much of that "socialist" health care system is better than having a couple of doctors or insurance agents getting shot and SWAT has to move in to a hospital while rest of the hospital is in lock down. We have one of the most capitalistic health system, but it comes at the cost of alienating some those who can't afford it. price of medical assistance/work is going up in part due to having too much capitalism in it.

second, illiegal immigrant argument is usually racist's idea. when most of those "illegal alien" arguments come up, they are pointing fingers at dark complextions, when there are enough problem makers in lighter complextions. also, health care people are not required to freely give all the medical attention. most illegal immigrants recieve emergency care and that's the end. if they go any further, they risk of being caught by INS or end up paying extraordinary fee that they can't afford since they work low paying jobs the "legal" immigrants won't do and instead protest about how "illegal" aliens are taking there jobs away.

and as Warren Buffet said, CA's property tax is lower than other states.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]He doesn't live in our world. He lives on Planet Hollywood.

This coming from a career polititian who, being a second generation American, claims to 'identify with the immigrant population'. I sure hope arnold doesn't live in his world.

then i guess alot of politicians in GOP are out of touch as much as they claim democrats are. And you gave an interesting point here. "being a second generation american" implies that he is not as kin as to the issue as Arnold. then again, you see enough white upper middle class bitching about immigration issues. on the otherhand, assuming your argument to be true, i can counter argue that since he is second generation, he cannot get emotionally attached to the issue, while having some birth ties, thus putting him in a neutral position.

Issa is now getting pissed off and is trying to bitch about it. he bankrolled the whole thing, only to be sidelined, and as he said, if two of them will not secure GOP's takeover by one of them resigning, then he'll vote for no on recall. he thinks he is in control, but he subconciously knows that he doesn't, and his trophy-work is now none of his, so he is trying to make some claim. good job Issa. welcome to politics.

[Bluesman 0]

Wonder how well the farming industry would do if those "illegal immigrants" were stopped? It would probably crumble quite fast since "hard working americans" arent likelly to work 15+ hours in hard sun picking fruit for crap pay. It's like those lingonberry/blueberry pickers from Russia, Baltics and Thailand over here in Sweden, they get almost nothing for their job but the middlemen makes big profits. Quite often they get screwed alltogether and doesnt even have enough money for their ticket home. And having seen how those Mexican fruit workers lives makes me think they dont have it much better.

Being a second generation immigrant(albeit with better premisses that some of those third world immigrants have) I know that the life of an immigrant is far from rosey as some of the posters here seems to believe. It's hard work from day 1. Plus of course; You get accused of every thing that's wrong with the society. Nevermind what's wrong, the immigrants are the cause of the problem.

I wonder how much billion dollar man Arnie knows about that "reallity"?

But then of course I'm not born with a silver spoon in my mouth so I guess I never learned to bash those at the bottom of the ladder.

Btw; Wonder if the Republican Colin Powell is one of those immigrants who uses the system and lives on welfare, he's on government pay after all ;).

BM

[toadlife 3]

Actuallly - saying health care was rather insensitive. Anyone should get emergency care, no matter who they are. As for anything beyond that - NO, not unless they want to pay for it.

My 'illegal immigrant' statement was more a reflection of my opinion that we should be letting them in legally, instead of wasting our money trying to stop them from coming accross.

We need immigrants to do alot of the labor in our state. The problem is, tons of them come over undocumented, get under the table jobs, and end up paying no payroll taxes.

They also become a problem when they commit crimes. How do track someone down when they don't legally exist?

I'll give you a prime example.

My wife was in a horrible car accident about 6 months ago. A van with two undocumented immigrants slammed into one car, then fled, and slammed into the car she was driving in. Thanks to airbags, my wife only had brusies, but her mother who was in the car had her leg shattered by the engine block and is still in crutches to this day.

The police were able to trace who the van was registered to, but it was not the two men who were in it. Nobody ever found the men drivng the van, I assume, because legally they don't exist in this country.

People like Cruz Bustamante want to give illegal immigrants drivers licenses in California. This only encourages more illegal immigration, because once you get a drivers license, you can use it as a springboard to get all kinds of other services - even in other states! The illegal immigrant driers license policy is ass-backwards. We need to start a workers program like we used to have so that people from Mexico can come over here and work without fearing the INS, and have a better chance of staying here if they want to. That's a federal issue though.

Quote[/b] ]price of medical assistance/work is going up in part due to having too much capitalism in it.

Absolutely wrong. The price of medical care in the U.S. is so high due to drug companies gouging Americans for "R&D" money, and the explosion of frivilous malpractice lawsuits. Capitalism has not hurt our heathcare system, it is simply responding to the two things I metioned above. Socializing it would only pass on the problems with our health care system directly to the tax payer

[ralphwiggum 6]

The police were able to trace who the van was registered to, but it was not the two men who were in it. Nobody ever found the men drivng the van, I assume, because legally they don't exist in this country.

my prayers for your mother-in-law. maybe sue the car's owner since he gave the keys?

Quote[/b] ]People like Cruz Bustamante want to give illegal immigrants drivers licenses in California. This only encourages more illegal immigration, because once you get a drivers license, you can use it as a springboard to get all kinds of other services - even in other states! The illegal immigrant driers license policy is ass-backwards. We need to start a workers program like we used to have so that people from Mexico can come over here and work without fearing the INS, and have a better chance of staying here if they want to. That's a federal issue though.

oddly enough, Davis rejected several(2) laws that enabled such idea, until now, upon facing the threat of recall.

the law that was recently signed requires that you provide federal tax number in order to obtain the driver's license. in other words, you pay taxes on income you earn than you can get your driver's license. first i have to wonder how many actually has that income tax number. second, as you mentioned, the driver's license could be used as spring board. however, most places that provide important services asks you for Social Security number. i'm not sure if federal tax income number can substitute that, but if it is so, then we are giving foreign alien status to those "illegal immigrants". this is federal issue(as you said) and fedral gov't should allow some scheme that you described(working permit)

sorry to bring your wife's case, but it can also be argued that if those 2 were allowed to have license and have insurance, then it would have been a lot less hassle to settle claims. since they can pay insurance, they won't be afraind to do so and run away.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]price of medical assistance/work is going up in part due to having too much capitalism in it.

Absolutely wrong. The price of medical care in the U.S. is so high due to drug companies gouging Americans for "R&D" money, and the explosion of frivilous malpractice lawsuits. Capitalism has not hurt our heathcare system, it is simply responding to the two things I metioned above. Socializing it would only pass on the problems with our health care system directly to the tax payer

R&D money is needed to get new medicines on market. Viagra, Lipitor, Glibek(sp?) and other drugs have been developed in US since US tends to have a lot more incentive to gain wealth. it is a delicate situation. you have capitalist market which rewards you with profit for successful product, which in turn drives the incentive to make better products, but at prices that are hard for some families.

and when it comes sto insurance, my insurance since 18 has been related to my "workplace" - school. as a student, university can offer an umbrella insurance which is calculated interms of people and how likely they are compared to normally distributed population. they don't perform individual health check.

but for some, getting either umbrella or individual insurance is tough. running a small family run shop is not as profitable as it is(only 10% make it to 10 years) and they are stuck eitherway. not to mention that many low-wage jobs do not have a decent insurance.

what "socialist" insurance program(which Bush admin is copying from Hillary's 1994 plan) will do is that at least some of those who cannot afford insurance get some help. in some twisted words, that would mean, "keeping the slaves alive today so we can get them working tomorrow."