The Iraq Thread 2

[bn880 5]

No you guys are right, and Bush was not in Iraq, it was a clone too.

[walker 0]

Hi FSPilot

Never underestimate your enemy otherwise he WILL win

Sadam is a ruthless dictator with a recorded history of personal courage, inteligence and cunning. You dont get to the position of being a dictator without it.

Here is link to his personal history so you can understand the man.

Sadam Profile by the BBC

Proporganda is all very nice but this forum has over time shown it self to be at a higher level than that.

I personaly think that the film of Sadam in the city was him just on those who are with him at the time. As the man is not coward I think he would have been there at the time the US were invading Bahgdad.

Oh by the way Bush Jnr. career in the National Guard is very doubtful in fact it just looks like it was Draft Dodging

http://www.hereinreality.com/commander.html

Kind Regards Walker

[joltan 0]

Acording to this article in the german language online news service Spiegel Online the Allies suffered more casualties during the month of November than they did in any other month of the Iraq campaign. In April during the hight of the war they suffered 73 casualties - in November it were at least 75.

Maybe someone can find an english language source for this.

[denoir 0]

Here is an english link (CNN).

Also in the link above: six Spanish intelligence officers killed in Iraq ambush.

Edit: BBC Story

Quote[/b] ]

.....

A journalist who drove past the scene of the ambush described a jubilant crowd kicking the bodies.

The were reportedly chanting "We sacrifice our souls and blood for you Saddam".

"We were told by locals there that... they'd killed eight people and they'd captured two others," the journalist said.

....

Edit: seven now, possibly eight.

For november (killed in combat - not counting accidents)

79 US casualties

19 Italian casualties

7 Spanish casualties

3 British casualties

2 Polish casualties

----------------------

Sum: 110 dead coalition soldiers in November

[EiZei 0]

EDIT: ach, should learn to read

[turms 0]

Any clue about Estonian military presence in Iraq? From somewhere i got the picture that there would be some, and some of them allready have been wounded. BBC didnt mention anything about them. Was i just dreaming or?

[Gollum1 0]

Estonians in Iraq

[FSPilot 0]

I don't think that there is any reason to think that Saddam does not have balls. He did not back off from a fight against a super power. He was in Baghdad well after the city fell and was on numerous occasions close to be killed. In his youth he started a failed coup d'état and was wounded in the attempt.

Bush skipped the Vietnam war by flying for the national guard in Texas.

So you tell me, who's got the biggest balls? The guy with the cruise missiles, or the guy who keeps fighting while being bombed?

Obviously having balls is not the only thing that defines a man.

Related:

Hillary Clinton makes Iraq visit. Before that she was in Afghanistan and she stayed in Baghdad far longer than two hours.

If Saddam wasn't a pussy he wouldn't be running from allied soldiers right now.  He's afraid we're going to capture him and bring him to the justice he deserves.  He's afraid of being bombed or shot, so he has a number of people who look like him running around the country pretending to be him.  He ruled his country with fear because he was an extremely paranoid man.  He's not fighting, he's running.  His peons who have everything to lose if Saddam is ousted from power are the ones fighting for him.  You really think he's brave because he faked a few videos before he ran from allied advances?

[denoir 0]

If Saddam wasn't a pussy he wouldn't be running from allied soldiers right now.  He's afraid we're going to capture him and bring him to the justice he deserves.  

 

You mean as opposed to Bush that has to travel to Iraq, a country that is supposedly under control of his troops, in complete secrecy and for only two hours becuase he is afraid of getting shot at?

Quote[/b] ]You really think he's brave because he faked a few videos before he ran from allied advances?

He is brave because he is still in the country, fighting for it. He could have disappeared completely but he keeps sending political messages and most likely has a hand in the organization of the resistance that only this month killed 79 Americans. He is brave because he did not surrender but chose to fight against impossible odds.

Refresh my memory - why did you say that Bush was brave?

And if I say that Saddam has a bigger moustache than Bush, will you be denying that as well?

[FSPilot 0]

denoir

Quote[/b] ]You mean as opposed to Bush that has to travel to Iraq, a country that is supposedly under control of his troops, in complete secrecy and for only two hours becuase he is afraid of getting shot at?

I never said Iraq was under the control of US troops.  That place is a warzone

Quote[/b] ]He is brave because he is still in the country, fighting for it. He could have disappeared completely but he keeps sending political messages and most likely has a hand in the organization of the resistance that only this month killed 79 Americans. He is brave because he did not surrender but chose to fight against impossible odds.

He's not fighting for his country, he's hiding.  As far as anybody knows he's not even in the country at all, if he's alive.  He's hiding, his officers are hiding, the only people who are fighting are the ones dressing up like civilians to bomb soldiers, or pretending to surrender only to pull out rifles and shoot at soldiers.

Quote[/b] ]Refresh my memory - why did you say that Bush was brave?

Refresh my memory - when did I say that Bush was brave?

[denoir 0]

denoir

Quote[/b] ]You mean as opposed to Bush that has to travel to Iraq, a country that is supposedly under control of his troops, in complete secrecy and for only two hours becuase he is afraid of getting shot at?

I never said Iraq was under the control of US troops.  That place is a warzone

Not according to Bush who in May anounced the end of major combat. Anyhow, it's more in control by friendlies to Bush than to friendlies to Saddam, right?

Quote[/b] ]He's not fighting for his country, he's hiding.  As far as anybody knows he's not even in the country at all, if he's alive.  He's hiding, his officers are hiding, the only people who are fighting are the ones dressing up like civilians to bomb soldiers, or pretending to surrender only to pull out rifles and shoot at soldiers.

You mean like his two sons that faught a company of US soldiers for six hours in a recreation of the Alamo?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Refresh my memory - why did you say that Bush was brave?

Refresh my memory - when did I say that Bush was brave?

Here:

Yes and BTW: I hear most Iraqi citizens are _quite_ offended by this kind of visit.  Un-announced, and they only found out he was there once he left.  Good PR for propagating the war, on both ends.  

EDIT: Compare this to Saddam, ho had the balls to go out into Baghdad streets even during the takeover of his capital.

You actually believe that?  Those were faked.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to insult your precious Saddam Hussein.  But he doesn't have the balls to pull this kind of stunt.

With "this kind of stunt", you are refering to Bush's hit-and-run visit, right?

[FSPilot 0]

denoir

Quote[/b] ]Not according to Bush who in May anounced the end of major combat. Anyhow, it's more in control by friendlies to Bush than to friendlies to Saddam, right?

I'm not Bush.

Wait a minute, you don't believe him when he talks about WMDs in Iraq.  But you do believe him when he talks about major combat?

Quote[/b] ]You mean like his two sons that faught a company of US soldiers for six hours in a recreation of the Alamo?

Yes.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You actually believe that?  Those were faked.  Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to insult your precious Saddam Hussein.  But he doesn't have the balls to pull this kind of stunt.

With "this kind of stunt", you are refering to Bush's hit-and-run visit, right?

No, I'm referring to Saddam's faked videos in Baghdad under siege. I would of said "that kind of stunt" if I was talking about Bush's visit.

[turms 0]

Reason for Saddam hiding,and nor surrendering is that he is smart. It would just be stupid to him to surrender. It takes no genious to figure that out. So what FSpilot is saying, it takes more guts to chase 1 man with 100 000 soldiers, than 1 man hiding from 100 000 soldiers.

Quote[/b] ]No, I'm referring to Saddam's faked videos in Baghdad under siege. I would of said "that kind of stunt" if I was talking about Bush's visit.

Now howcome they are fake videos?

[denoir 0]

I'm not Bush.

Wait a minute, you don't believe him when he talks about WMDs in Iraq.  But you do believe him when he talks about major combat?

I'm not talking to myself, am I? You believed his WMD claims, so there is no reason for you not to believe him when he announces the end of major combat, right?

Regardless, the point is that Iraq is by far more under US control than it is under Baathist control. We can agree on that, right?

And then the point is that Saddam stayed in the country for a long time at the risk of his own life, while Bush chose to stay a very short while and in secrecy because he was afraid of his own life.

Quote[/b] ]No, I'm referring to Saddam's faked videos in Baghdad under siege.  I would of said "that kind of stunt" if I was talking about Bush's visit.

Ok, just for the record - IIRC interviews with his bodyguards have shown that it indeed was Saddam on the pictures on the streets. I remember actually posting one of the interviews myself.

Anyhow, I don't think that's especially brave - walking on the street among people. On the other hand he did lead a failed attempt of a military coup d'état. IIRC he was wounded in the attempt. And actually trying to overthrow a much stronger government by force requires balls of steel. And again, Bush left him the option before the war to leave the country and that he would not be touched. He did not and predictably there were several attempts on his life.

As I said, how brave somebody is has nothing to do with the overall quality of the man. But trying to deny it is just silly. You don't get to be a dictator by hiding in a corner. He did not inherit his power, he took it by force.

[EiZei 0]

Saddam might be a insane and sadistic fuck, but he is not dumb. Going up directly against the mightiest military force in the world is not excatly a wise idea. Maybe he truly thinks that he is the "good" guy, only who is able keep the different ethnic groups in Iraq under control and will rather die fighting than wimp out?

[turms 0]

two Japanese who may have been diplomats from Japan killed in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]The ambush on the Japanese, in which a non-Japanese driver was wounded, is likely to complicate efforts by Tokyo, Washington's closest Asian ally, to decide whether to send non-combat troops to help rebuild Iraq.

Reuters

[Bordoy 0]

Saddam might be a insane and sadistic fuck, but he is not dumb. Going up directly against the mightiest military force in the world is not excatly a wise idea. Maybe he truly thinks that he is the "good" guy, only who is able keep the different ethnic groups in Iraq under control and will rather die fighting than wimp out?

if he would rather die fighting, why his he hiding (or be dead) and sending suicide bombers to do his dirty work for him.

i hope when and if they capture him, they "TORTURE" him to death, and anyone that supports him.

[FSPilot 0]

turms

Quote[/b] ]So what FSpilot is saying, it takes more guts to chase 1 man with 100 000 soldiers, than 1 man hiding from 100 000 soldiers.

Oh is that what I'm saying?

No. I'm saying he's not brave because he hides instead of fighting. He runs from justice instead of getting what he deserves.

For example, say some kid is misbehaving in his schoolroom and gets called to the principals office. Instead of going to the office, he runs home and hides in his bedroom. Is this kid brave or a coward?

Quote[/b] ]Now howcome they are fake videos?

Because they were faked?

denoir

Quote[/b] ]You believed his WMD claims, so there is no reason for you not to believe him when he announces the end of major combat, right?

I don't believe his WMD claims, and I don't think major combat in Iraq is over.

Quote[/b] ]Regardless, the point is that Iraq is by far more under US control than it is under Baathist control. We can agree on that, right?

Define "control". Yes, there are troops all over the place. Yes, a new government is in control. But is that to say that it's a safe place for the president to walk around? Of course not. There's still shooting.

Quote[/b] ]And then the point is that Saddam stayed in the country for a long time at the risk of his own life, while Bush chose to stay a very short while and in secrecy because he was afraid of his own life.

You know where Saddam Hussein is, eh? I sure hope not, otherwise you've got some 'splainin to do. If Saddam is in Iraq, he's not parading around in uniform and flying on big colorful airplanes. He's hiding in bunkers and keeping a low profile.

Quote[/b] ]Ok, just for the record - IIRC interviews with his bodyguards have shown that it indeed was Saddam on the pictures on the streets. I remember actually posting one of the interviews myself.

LOL

So would you trust one of Bush's ex-bodyguards who said that Bush didn't steal the election?

Quote[/b] ]Anyhow, I don't think that's especially brave - walking on the street among people. On the other hand he did lead a failed attempt of a military coup d'état. IIRC he was wounded in the attempt. And actually trying to overthrow a much stronger government by force requires balls of steel™. And again, Bush left him the option before the war to leave the country and that he would not be touched. He did not and predictably there were several attempts on his life.

As I said, how brave somebody is has nothing to do with the overall quality of the man. But trying to deny it is just silly. You don't get to be a dictator by hiding in a corner. He did not inherit his power, he took it by force.

I'm not talking about how he got in office. That was a very long time ago. Now he's a coward, if he's even still alive. Hiding from soldiers and surrounded by bodyguards.

I don't expect him to come running at an M1A1 with an AK47, that would just be plain stupid. If he was brave he would stand and lead his soldiers, or surrender.

[Harnu 0]

so there is no reason for you not to believe him when he announces the end of major combat, right?

I could think of a few reasons

[denoir 0]

I don't believe his WMD claims, and I don't think major combat in Iraq is over.

I see that there is still hope for you

So tell me, are you voting for him next year?

[Acecombat 0]

Man how can you guys even find the time to argue with FS pilot

Quote[/b] ]Define "control". Yes, there are troops all over the place. Yes, a new government is in control. But is that to say that it's a safe place for the president to walk around? Of course not. There's still shooting.

Well he wasnt even visiting the city was he? A trip inside a mess hall surrounded by his own army , and he had to fake it

Quote[/b] ]So would you trust one of Bush's ex-bodyguards who said that Bush didn't steal the election?

What were Bushs bodyguards doing at the polls?

Oh i didnt knew they were helping in the counting , this comparison is outrageously irrelevant.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]For example, say some kid is misbehaving in his schoolroom and gets called to the principals office. Instead of going to the office, he runs home and hides in his bedroom. Is this kid brave or a coward?

if the penalty for misbehaving would be death, and the kid would turn himself in, it would be stupidity, not brave or unbrave, but pure stupidity.

If the kid would be chased by 100 000 teachers, i would say the kid has courage if he will not surrender despite the massive difference with manpower.

[walker 0]

Hi FSPilot

I hope the US generals are not underestimating Sadam as you are that is how they lost the vietnam war.

Plain facts about Sadam

He is brave

He is inteligent

He is cunning

He is vicious

He is brutal

He probably a psychopath at least one of his sons was.

He is evil

Facts about beating Sadam

Talk is cheap

War is not cheap

You cannot win geurilla war with tanks and air planes

You must own the ground by soldiers on each street corner

You loose face with civilians in an occupied country when you fail to achieve your aims.

When you start to loose face you percieved as a looser

People who back winners switch sides when they think your a looser.

You get peoples backs up when you are a foreigner wondering around telling them what they must do after you bombed the crap out of their country.

The US needs to get control of the seccurity situation in Iraq.

It needs at least 4 times as many troops as are there now.

These troops need to be infantry on the ground.

For that it is probably going to have reintroduce the draft.

Aims Failed

WMD not found

Sadam not Found

Security getting exponetialy worse

Services not working

Iraqi government not established

These aims have to be achieved and the security situation improved or the US and unfortunately the country I live in are going to have to go through a long drawn out Vietnam style war with tens of thousands of coalition casulties and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians will die.

Pessimisticly Walker

[FSPilot 0]

denoir

Quote[/b] ]So tell me, are you voting for him next year?

Only if the democrats come up with a -very- good candidate. Preferrably pro-life and military friendly.

Acecombat

Quote[/b] ]Well he wasnt even visiting the city was he? A trip inside a mess hall surrounded by his own army , and he had to fake it

Judging by the name, Baghdad International Airport is in or near Baghdad.

Quote[/b] ]What were Bushs bodyguards doing at the polls?

Oh i didnt knew they were helping in the counting , this comparison is outrageously irrelevant.

Not really. Why would you trust somebody who used to protect the man he's testifying for?

turms

Quote[/b] ]if the penalty for misbehaving would be death, and the kid would turn himself in, it would be stupidity, not brave or unbrave, but pure stupidity.

If the kid would be chased by 100 000 teachers, i would say the kid has courage if he will not surrender despite the massive difference with manpower.

And if the kid doesn't know what the penalty is?

walker

Quote[/b] ]I hope the US generals are not underestimating Sadam as you are that is how they lost the vietnam war.

I'm not underestimating Saddam. I just don't think he's a brave man. I also don't think he's sitting behind a desk somewhere giving out orders to his troops. I think he's hiding, sleeping in a new bed every night, and looking over his shoulder all the time.

[Crazysheep 1]

You must own the ground by soldiers on each street corner

You loose face with civilians in an occupied country when you fail to achieve your aims.

I disagree there; I think winning public support is a better way of weakening resistance. If you have soldiers on every street corner, it leads to three problems:

1) Iraqis will feel their security is being invaded and begin to resent troops

2) It would be quite easy for Iraqis to take shots at random troops from inside a building then run away

3) Mistakes happen in war; more troops present would mean more civilians killed in the crossfire.

So while temporarily making it harder for the resistance, it will give the resistance more supporters; then there might be relatively large scale attacks on a few more isolated guardposts, and some carnage on the streets. This will only cause problems.