The Iraq Thread 2

[Warin 0]

What does this have to do with Iraq? Please make another thread for this if you want to discuss it.

Thanks

[Schoeler 0]

Schoeler, I prefer being a fish struggling in a net thrown out by anti-American-propagandists to being a fish struggling in the net based on lies thrown out by the current US presidency.

Well it seems obvious to me that you've been given your opinion and nothing I can do or say will convince you otherwise. I suppose you cling to it with blind faith despite logical arguments made to the contrary simply because those arguments don't match up with the world view you have chosen and your opinion of Americans.

Quote[/b] ]Regarding your 6 years in military service for the USA it`s fine if you have made no bad experiences there. Considered the fact that you are in a better unit? Or in a worse one depending on the point of view? Being in an army makes you no specialist on that subject already, an army is way too complex and each unit is different.

I spent six years in the Navy, but I served with hundreds of Marines, thousands of Airmen, and a few Coast Guardsmen, so I'd say I'm infinitely more qualified than you are to assess the mentality of the average American serviceman, particularly given that I at one time was one of them. How many Americans have you served with? Where do you draw your knowledge from and derive the authority to spout conjecture about the mentality of American fighting men? Again, I'm going to bet that its third or fourth hand information.

Quote[/b] ]Check out the book I mentioned above written by one of your finest. The author was a sniper, those guys are normally excellent trained and in average psychological condition. Now read what he wrote. Maybe think about that sniper killer who terrorized the USA last year after that. He was a former US sniper, decorated. He just flipped one moment from being a true american hero to a mass murderer. That`s normal if something like that happens? I doubt it.

I haven't read the book, but I did see the author interviewed on a news program recently. He seems like an ordinary man with an abnormal job, who was placed in absurd circumstances and tried to come to grips with it as best he could. Anytime a young man is transplanted from family life into a role where he has to kill other human beings upon orders, its going to fuck with his head some. Especially if the killing is done through a rifle scope and in an overwhelmingly unfair manner as with snipers.

Quote[/b] ]Then think about the incidents which involved US aircraft (A10 incident; the incident where a fighter plane cut a skilift killing civilians doing some stupid stunts; the almost termination of Harmid Karsai (sp?) , the current Afghani president, in Afghanistan at the end of the Taliban where he almost was killed by an US bomb and where a few US servicemen died) .

It`s quiet obvious that there`s something more wrong in the US armed forces than in other armies. You can come to this conclusion only by adding the news on such incidents together. The continuous deaths of US service men in Iraq right now are just another proof that your armed forces high command is nonelastic and not planning large-scaled. With the current military policy in Iraq the GIs will be killed steadily and it will become worse and worse.

I don't think its obvious at all. Ever consider the possibility that its has more to do with numbers than with the troops themselves? The U.S. is involved in more combat operations and in larger numbers than any other country in the world. Consider the Belgians send 10,000 troops to Ghandwanaland for a peace keeping operation and they are constantly harassed by guerillas. Maybe they accidently kill 5 civilians and 2 U.N. troops. Now consider a U.S. operation in the same circumstances. America sends 100,000 troops. Applying the same factor, the friendly fire casualties would be 50 civilians and 20 U.N. troops. No other nation fields as many forces as the U.S. does or is as invloved in foreign military ventures as the U.S. is. I think your overblown sense of injustice from American friendly fire incidents might have more to do with simple math than with a problem in the mentality or training of the American servicman. Now, factor in the amount of technology and firepower the U.S. uses in combat operations, combined arms ops, joint ops with foreign militaries, etc.. and the margin for error has increased by an order of magnitude or two.

Quote[/b] ]Nevertheless the reason for that has to be searched for in the inside or on the root.

I couldn't agree more. If America can find a way to mesh military killing technology and fire power with the ability to save innocent lives, I'm all for it. So far, considering the lack of civilian and friendly casualties in this war in comparison to any other conflict, I'd say things have improved dramatically.

Quote[/b] ]Now back to the A10 incident which started this nice debate. I`m still of the opinion that a pilot who destroys a tank full of British servicemen with a British flag ontop of it driving in a British convoy is totally nuts and/or incompetent. That`s my opinion and nothing more. You don`t have to like it and you don`t even have to comment on it. Guys who defend pilots like this one are just pitiful in my eyes.

I don't claim to like or dislike it, and personally I don't really care all that much, I just use the forum to fine tune my argumentation skills for my upcoming jaunt through law school. What concerns me more is that I have an opponent who can make a credible and logical argument based upon fact and not speculation, conjecture, rumor etc... So far, I'm not convinced that you've done that.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Well it seems obvious to me that you've been given your opinion and nothing I can do or say will convince you otherwise.  I suppose you cling to it with blind faith despite logical arguments made to the contrary simply because those arguments don't match up with the world view you have chosen and your opinion of Americans.

Well, that statement could also be from me pointed at you. Though you are the smarter version of the american here on the forums even able to criticize your own President and scrutinize what`s happening with your country I can`t see the logical arguments you`ve been talking about. Sure we can agree on a few things but when someone tells me that his nation can`t be made responsible for it`s actions before the world community because it`s the only supermight that`s sad again. That`s the typical american argumentation: because we are stronger we can do anything. We write our own rights, your rights are wrong because you`re all after us. History is written by the victor and so on.

Statements like that aren`t logical argumentation, they are just based on a point of view which is pointed to only one side of the coin.

Another funny thing is that you call us foreigners always biased. Hey, there are three groups on this planet in this case: the americans, their enemies and the guys in the middle shaking their heads sadly. I count myself and my country to the last of the three. Now why should my point of view be more biased then the point of view of the direct opposers, the USA and it`s enemies? That`s illogical.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]the russians always say that soldiers who comitted crimes in chechnya or anywhere else will get punished... but only by a national court. the same for the US. and u know, those national courts are in no country really strict.

that's why i think every country should join ICC.

This is not true with UCMJ. Military justice in the U.S. is completely seperate from the civil state and federal jutstice systems. Military personnel do not have the same civil liberties as a civilian. These are knowingly signed away upon enlistment or comissioning. UCMJ is very strict and unforgiving. In fact U.S. war criminals would probably be dealt with much more harshly under the UCMJ system than under something like the ICC. For example, the maximum penalty for rape under UCMJ is death.

[PFC_Mike 2]

Jinef, do you think that the National Socialist party was anything but socialist?

The "Beltway Sniper" was not a sniper in the military. He was decorated for showing good marksmanship, but he was never a sniper. As for the author of Jarhead, a lot of Marines have said that he should have been kicked out. Besides, the whole book is filled with torrid, overwrought narration. All military forces have bad eggs. The US and UK are no exception.

No socialist state provides the rights that a truly capitalist one does. Personally, I'd prefer the right to keep my income over the right to have you take it from me. Let's not forget that insulting Chirac is a crime with a penalty of five years in jail and a 300,000 euro fine. And your beloved justice system declares all to be guilty until proven inocent, Ran. need I continue on the subject of your bloated public service class? Or the idiocy of your common agricultural policy?

The reason French and German pilots never blow up friendly tanks is becuase they never actually fly combat missions. Just tromping about Africa, looking good in Oakelys and watching innocents get massacred.

[ran 0]

Let's not forget that insulting Chirac is a crime with a penalty of five years in jail and a 300,000 euro fine. And your beloved justice system declares all to be guilty until proven inocent, Ran. need I continue on the subject of your bloated public service class? Or the idiocy of your common agricultural policy?

ah ? really? where did you read that ? 5 years ? 300 000 euros fine ? thank you for informing me of that .... that would mean i've been risking my freddom during 7 years without even knowing it

Quote[/b] ]

The reason French and German pilots never blow up friendly tanks is becuase they never actually fly combat missions. Just tromping about Africa, looking good in Oakelys and watching innocents get massacred.

yeah .... and the aerial campaigns over Iraq during GW1 and former jugoslavia were achieved by the US air force and the pakistani squadron of the brown and grey stripes wild chickens ....

[Die Alive 0]

and the pakistani squadron of the brown and grey stripes wild chickens ....

Haha, good Pakistani Air Force put down.

-=Die Alive=-

[Schoeler 0]

Well it seems obvious to me that you've been given your opinion and nothing I can do or say will convince you otherwise.  I suppose you cling to it with blind faith despite logical arguments made to the contrary simply because those arguments don't match up with the world view you have chosen and your opinion of Americans.

Well, that statement could also be from me pointed at you. Though you are the smarter version of the american here on the forums even able to criticize your own President and scrutinize what`s happening with your country I can`t see the logical arguments you`ve been talking about. Sure we can agree on a few things but when someone tells me that his nation can`t be made responsible for it`s actions before the world community because it`s the only supermight that`s sad again. That`s the typical american argumentation: because we are stronger we can do anything. We write our own rights, your rights are wrong because you`re all after us. History is written by the victor and so on.

Statements like that aren`t logical argumentation, they are just based on a point of view which is pointed to only one side of the coin.

Another funny thing is that you call us foreigners always biased. Hey, there are three groups on this planet in this case: the americans, their enemies and the guys in the middle shaking their heads sadly. I count myself and my country to the last of the three. Now why should my point of view be more biased then the point of view of the direct opposers, the USA and it`s enemies? That`s illogical.

Did you just not readmy posts at all? How about the last one for instance regarding the statistics etc...? That's not a logical argument? I give you a reason for why the U.S. has more FF incidents than other nations, you give me "Some guy told me Americans are evil trigger happy psychos and I blindly accept that" ... Who's being illogical here?

As far as the I.C.C goes, I didn't finish that argument because this isn't the appropriate board for that. Raedor and I have been continuing that in PM's and I will post an argument in the approriate thread shortly. If you want to argue with me about that, you can go there.

[Schoeler 0]

This I think is a large part of the problem. As far as the number of FF incidents the U.S. is involved in vs. other nations, I just think that can be explained by statistics for the most part. The U.S. is involved in larger operations more often, so of course the FF numbers are going to be higher.

[Tamme 0]

Why doed USA go to war in every place on Earth? Does it really bother them if there's a war in Africa? Can't they just mind their own business? Other thing that bothers me is that USA goes to war and leaves it's troops there (Germany, South Korea, Afganistan) why can't they just kill the enemy and leave? I know that there must be some kind of an explanation for all this, but I don't see any reason for USA to act this way.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Why doed USA go to war in every place on Earth? Does it really bother them if there's a war in Africa? Can't they just mind their own business? Other thing that bothers me is that USA goes to war and leaves it's troops there (Germany, South Korea, Afganistan) why can't they just kill the enemy and leave? I know that there must be some kind of an explanation for all this, but I don't see any reason for USA to act this way.

*head explodes*

[Tamme 0]

@ July 08 2003,20:48)]

Why doed USA go to war in every place on Earth? Does it really bother them if there's a war in Africa? Can't they just mind their own business? Other thing that bothers me is that USA goes to war and leaves it's troops there (Germany, South Korea, Afganistan) why can't they just kill the enemy and leave? I know that there must be some kind of an explanation for all this, but I don't see any reason for USA to act this way.

*head explodes*

Now I feel stupid...

[NurEinMensch 0]

FallenPaladin I think you're arguments are based on emotions and prejudice, I'm sorry to say that since I am usually on the same side as you are in a debate (even without making any posts I always cheer for one side ) but this time Schoeler has made some points and I think he is mostly right.

We all agree there is a blue on blue problem. Ok lets go on.

Oh and on the other issue currently discussed in this hi-jacked thread I'm on ran's side.

Those who talk about our liberties being taken away in Europe: I think you got no idea what you're talking about.

In some cases we have more liberties than you have. (I laughed my ass out when I heard about the people in the land of the free and the 2nd amendment(spelling ) not being able to legally buy some cool fireworks, no pun intented) And in some cases you have more liberties.

Right now I think its more or less ok here, although it could still be better but currently I wouldn't want to move to the US, for no money in the world.

[Schoeler 0]

Why doed USA go to war in every place on Earth? Does it really bother them if there's a war in Africa? Can't they just mind their own business? Other thing that bothers me is that USA goes to war and leaves it's troops there (Germany, South Korea, Afganistan) why can't they just kill the enemy and leave? I know that there must be some kind of an explanation for all this, but I don't see any reason for USA to act this way.

Read Emmanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill and you will understand. Its a basic tenet of Western Philosophy.

Besides the U.S. stayed in South Korea because we were asked to do so.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why doed USA go to war in every place on Earth?

Come on now, you may not like us, but why exxagerate like that?

Quote[/b] ]Does it really bother them if there's a war in Africa?

No it doesn't really bother us, but is it so hard to believe that we're actually doing it to help people out? I think we can all agree that peace is better than war, so why not work to end a civil war that's been going for nearly a decade? Not only that, but this war in Liberia is destabilizing Sierra Leone and Cote d'Ivoire, both of which have seen recent interventions by European militaries. Wouldn't want all that good work on the part of countries like France to go to waste, now would we?

Quote[/b] ]Can't they just mind their own business?

Schoeler all ready fielded this one.

Quote[/b] ]Other thing that bothers me is that USA goes to war and leaves it's troops there (Germany, South Korea, Afganistan) why can't they just kill the enemy and leave?

Because then y'all would be on our case for leaving these countries in the lurch. Let's take your examples point by point.

1) Germany. I suppose it really would have been decent of us to have left all of Germany to the Soviet Union- that would've worked out real well. And now that the Eastern Bloc has collapsed, we're still there because we can't find a speculator who's interested in a large piece of real-estate like Ramstein AFB. (that was a joke)

2) South Korea. We were asked to hang around plus, technically, the Korean War never ended. That means that the day the US leaves South Korea will be the day before North Korea invades.

3) Afghanistan. You're joking- we got picked to pieces because we didn't help Afghanistan out post-Soviet invasion, and now you're bitching because we're trying to make ammends? Honestly.

Quote[/b] ]I know that there must be some kind of an explanation for all this, but I don't see any reason for USA to act this way.

Well, there you go. Maybe you should read it a couple times.

[NurEinMensch 0]

The soviets are long gone, you may leave aswell!

Seriously, when the US recently "threatened" Germany with the removal of troops and moving bases to eastern Europe most people in Germany were quite happy about that (was fun while it lasted), with the noteable exception of some cities mayors of course.

But thats the wrong thread!

[ran 0]

@ July 08 2003,23:57)]Rammstein AFB.

the german industrial rock band has got an Air Force Base ?

Ramstein is the name of the AFB

Rammstein is the name of the band

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ July 08 2003,23:57)]Rammstein AFB.

the german industrial rock band has got an Air Force Base ?

Ramstein is the name of the AFB

Rammstein is the name of the band

My bad.

[ran 0]

@ July 09 2003,00:17)]

@ July 08 2003,23:57)]Rammstein AFB.

the german industrial rock band has got an Air Force Base ?

Ramstein is the name of the AFB

Rammstein is the name of the band

My bad.

nah don't worry , it's just me nitpicking

[FallenPaladin 0]

I don't think its obvious at all.  Ever consider the possibility that its has more to do with numbers than with the troops themselves?  The U.S. is involved in more combat operations and in larger numbers than any other country in the world.  Consider the Belgians send 10,000 troops to Ghandwanaland for a peace keeping operation and they are constantly harassed by guerillas.  Maybe they accidently kill 5 civilians and 2 U.N. troops.  Now consider a U.S. operation in the same circumstances.  America sends 100,000 troops.  Applying the same factor, the friendly fire casualties would be 50 civilians and 20 U.N. troops.  No other nation fields as many forces as the U.S. does or is as invloved in foreign military ventures as the U.S. is.  I think your overblown sense of injustice from American friendly fire incidents might have more to do with simple math than with a problem in the mentality or training of the American servicman.  Now, factor in the amount of technology and firepower the U.S. uses in combat operations, combined arms ops, joint ops with foreign militaries, etc.. and the margin for error has increased by an order of magnitude or two.

[snip]

I couldn't agree more.  If America can find a way to mesh military killing technology and fire power with the ability to save innocent lives, I'm all for it.  So far, considering the lack of civilian and friendly casualties in this war in comparison to any other conflict, I'd say things have improved dramatically.

Ok, the way it`s posted there I can accept it. Of course there are still too many FF incidents in relation to the "high tech" the US uses, but they can improve that if they want to. Bush seems to be supporting extreme beta-testing with his forces anyway.    

That`s just about the FF issue.

(I still hope the A10 pilots (there were even 2 planes attacking the Scimitars) who killed the Brits get their arses chewed. I simply can`t forget the interviews with the shocked survivors after that attack. http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,926167,00   )

[Schoeler 0]

I think those pilots should be stripped of their wings. Anyone so hyped up they make TWO attack runs on a friendly convoy needs to have a less stimulating job, like counting potatoes in Minot North Dakota, or shoveling snow in Elmendorf Alaska for the rest of their military career. I'm sure that's what will happen to them.

[Schoeler 0]

Ok, the way it`s posted there I can accept it. Of course there are still too many FF incidents in relation to the "high tech" the US uses, but they can improve that if they want to. Bush seems to be supporting extreme beta-testing with his forces anyway.    

Actually, and this is horrible, but true.

Most wars are just that, beta tests of technology and tactics to be used in the next war. This one was no different, look at the use of the latest and greatest gadgets. Some of them were put to use in combat while still in a trial status.

[Jinef 2]

My advice to you Schoeler and Tex is emmigrate, you are clearly surrounded by idiots, you make me rethink my point then 15 other narrow minded Americans come in and root me back to my original state.

FSPilot - your interpretation of things is so simplistic and narrow i don't know how you can be serious, I mentioned that the EU convention does not have a policy on firearms and you go right ahead and say 'What about England'!? FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

T-H-E E-U C-O-N-V-E-N-T-I-O-N D-O-E-S N-O-T H-A-V-E A P-O-L-I-C-Y O-N F-I-R-E-A-R-M-S

(Terry Wogan impression now) Is it me? Is it me? How can anyone with at least half a neuron not understand that?

Honestly if you do get in the air force i'm going to shoot myself.

They do this as it is a sensitive issue, some people find them dangerous, OH I WONDER WHY? 5 shots are heard from an aircraft factory across the Atlantic. I was using Switzerland as an example because there is more firearms per household than America and strangely enough they don't have all this gun crime and shootings. Thank you nutter yank in America for killing 5 innocent people, it might not be nice for them and their families but it might help me drum some sense into you!

Soldier dude, i said we had that one derogation in the UK to prove that it was a false dichotomy to assume socialism = less rights. Which is more Socialist out of these 3 countries - UK, US + Sweden and which countries have 1 less right (to be held without trial) than the other? Is this a bit complicated for you? Ok, Swedish person has one more right than US and UK person, the right to trial if assumed to be terrorist. Also he has more rights than the average US person so i don't know what you are on about, please don't grace us with your knowledge anymore, it is slightly too potent for our weak minds.

Oh and for your little Anti American Terrorist sympathiser comment...I AM OSAMA BIN LADEN! Meet me before you think i am a terrorisy sympathiser, i am in New York from 8th July to 18th.

PFC Mike - get out more,

Warin - It is all in reply to this bunch of plonkers.

[FSPilot 0]

^that^ post in picture form:

Jinef, if you want to sit and have a civilised conversation with me, fine do it.  If you want to scream and throw insults at me you can go to your room.

Now get back on topic before Warin closes the thread.

Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani captured on July 2nd

I heard on the radio that this guy would know of any link between Iraq and the 9/11 attacks. I think it was Greece that said he had met with the lead hijacker on 9/11 but the CIA didn't believe them.

[PFC_Mike 2]

You're forgetting the most important right of socialists- the right to be seperated from your money!

If the US offends you so why visit? Is it worth the money? I know for sure I'm not visiting the ppl related to me in Sweden. As for my French relatives, they were all murdered by Papist swine or moved to England a long ass time ago.