Doped pilots

[hellfish6 7]

I don't think MANPADS like Stingers and SA-7s have tracking devices that would set off threat dectectors. Therefore, if you saw a flash from a CG, from 10,000 feet you wouldn't know if it was from a Stinger or from an AT weapon, right?

Not sayin' that I defend the guy, I'm just sayin'...

[Tovarish 0]

I don't think MANPADS like Stingers and SA-7s have tracking devices that would set off threat dectectors. Therefore, if you saw a flash from a CG, from 10,000 feet you wouldn't know if it was from a Stinger or from an AT weapon, right?

Not sayin' that I defend the guy, I'm just sayin'...  

They dont, not until the missile is close and the aircraft can detect the missile's incoming heat signature. But if the pilot thought MANPADS were a threat to him, why did he ask permoission to go NOE and strafe with his cannon? . Dosen't seem like a request a pilot who was concerned for his safety would make.

[hellfish6 7]

Why go NOE at night and strafe (sounds hazardous to me - trained or not) when you can just drop a bomb?

[Tovarish 0]

Why go NOE at night and strafe (sounds hazardous to me - trained or not) when you can just drop a bomb?

Beats me, but that's just what he asked to do.

Quote[/b] ]One of the pilots requested permission to respond with fire from its 20 mm guns, but the request was denied. The pilots then were granted permission to "mark" the target.

As the planes were turning to mark the target, one F-16 concluded the other was directly threatened by the ground fire, and made a second request to strafe.

That request was also denied, sources said, but the second F-16 dropped a GBU-12 500-pound bomb to protect the first plane, reporting a "direct hit."

http://www.cnn.com/2002....related

[hellfish6 7]

Ah. Interesting.

[USSoldier11B 0]

[FSPilot 0]

Worked hard all your life to get to a fighter pilot career?

Only human? Get tired after flying for hours on end?

Well, if you don't take these judgement-impairing drugs, you can kiss your career goodbye flyboy!

[Warin 0]

Worked hard all your life to get to a fighter pilot career?

Only human?  Get tired after flying for hours on end?

Well, if you don't take these judgement-impairing drugs, you can kiss your career goodbye flyboy!

Here is a challenge for you, FSPilot.

I want you to produce a reputable source that shows the pilots were required to take 'go pills'. Futhermore, I want you to produce conclusive medical evidence that with the dosage and type of medication given, that there would be adverse reactions causing paranoia that might explain why this moron dropped a 500 pound bomb on his allies.

Until then, you sound like a broken record.

[FSPilot 0]

Common sense?

It's common sense that not following orders is a black mark on your record. It's common sense that speed makes you jittery.

[Warin 0]

Common sense?

It's common sense that not following orders is a black mark on your record.  It's common sense that speed makes you jittery.

Then why werent there more incidents like this?

Come now, I gave you a perfectly reasonable way to exonerate this pilot

Rise to the challenge

PS: Even to the point of proving that there is an actual order to take 'go pills' Ever thing this guy knowingly took them, and only after this horrible incident decided to claim he was forced? If he even claims that... proof... I need proof

[FSPilot 0]

I think if you can't use common sense to come to a conclusion about this no amount of proof will convince you.

It's common sense that the air force gives its pilots amphetamines to keep them alert on missions. It's common sense that amphetamines like these impair your ability to make good decisions. And it's common sense that if you don't do what you're told in the air force, you're going to get a black mark on your record.

You don't need a doctor to tell you that.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

And it's common sense that you are just spouting crap out of your head.......over and over again.

Quote[/b] ]It's common sense that amphetamines like these impair your ability to make good decisions.

Why on earth would the Air Force give it's pilots drugs that impare their judgement and performance? Why would they risk the lives of their own people and allies and millions of dollars worth of equipment for no gain? Common sense, right FS?

As I and others have stated before, the U.S. Airforce has said that the pills had no effect on the outcome of the incident. Just go back and find the damned link, it's here somewhere, or on the CNN website. If the pills were actually a reason for the incident, then why where the pilots charged? And why is the pilot who dropped the bomb still facing charges? Common sense, right?

Now I know why people don't like debating with you FS, you just spew out the same old claims over and over with absolutely no proof to back it up.

I'm going to go bang my head against the wall for the remainder of the day, for it would be more usefull than sitting here trying to talk sense to you.  

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm going to go bang my head against the wall for the remainder of the day, for it would be more usefull than sitting here trying to talk sense to you.

Welcome to the FS ´ism debating club.

[Supah 0]

There actually was a documentary on it on a german channel here recently (ZDF i believe). They interviewed officials, the lot. They openly admitted to the use of go pills. The reason that there have not been more incidents? Well lets see what large conflicts did we have recently before 9/11 that involved USAF pilots to fly extremely long duration missions on a regular basis?

[FSPilot 0]

Assault

Quote[/b] ]Why on earth would the Air Force give it's pilots drugs that impare their judgement and performance? Why would they risk the lives of their own people and allies and millions of dollars worth of equipment for no gain? Common sense, right FS?

They're wrong in doing it. Why don't you ask them?

Quote[/b] ]As I and others have stated before, the U.S. Airforce has said that the pills had no effect on the outcome of the incident. Just go back and find the damned link, it's here somewhere, or on the CNN website. If the pills were actually a reason for the incident, then why where the pilots charged? And why is the pilot who dropped the bomb still facing charges? Common sense, right?

Aren't you one of the guys who didn't trust the US's evidence in Iraq? Now you want to trust them by their word?

They're just trying to save face.

Quote[/b] ]Now I know why people don't like debating with you FS, you just spew out the same old claims over and over with absolutely no proof to back it up.

And neither do you! Don't give me stupid double standards.

Quote[/b] ]I'm going to go bang my head against the wall for the remainder of the day, for it would be more usefull than sitting here trying to talk sense to you.

From the looks of your post you've been doing that too much lately.

Balschoiw

Quote[/b] ]Welcome to the FS ´ism debating club.

It's better than lying to everyone.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]Welcome to the FS ´ism debating club.

Oh go step on a mine will ya?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

He does get marks for persistence

[Assault (CAN) 1]

FS, you obviously don't read the news. It only looks like I repeat myself because you have been doing it the entire g*ddamned thread.

Look up "Human Error" in the dictionary.

Quote[/b] ]Aren't you one of the guys who didn't trust the US's evidence in Iraq?

Nope. But now it appears like they were wrong afterall. We'll save that for another thread.

Quote[/b] ]From the looks of your post you've been doing that too much lately.

[FSPilot 0]

FS, you obviously don't read the news. It only looks like I repeat myself because you have been doing it the entire g*ddamned thread.

Look up "Human Error" in the dictionary.

Doing what? Saying the same argument? Probably because nobody's given me a good counter-argument yet.

I'm aware of what "human error" is. Because the pilots were on speed they were much more prone to "human error".

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Allright, here's a link to Canada's DND OFFICIAL board of inquiry on the entire incident: http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/boi/intro_e.asp

The U.S. Air Force also did an inquiry and both sides shared info and both came to the same conclusion. I watched it on the news when it came out, first the Canadian, then the U.S. one. Both arriving at the same conclusion:

Quote[/b] ]Accordingly, it is the overall conclusion of the Board that the proximate fault for the outcome of the attack lies with the two F-16 pilots

There it is, straight from the horses' mouth. Feel free to read the article, as it will answer any questions.

I'm through arguing, as it only depresses me further. Say what you will, I don't care.

Tyler

One last link: Here

Quote[/b] ]The Canadian Board has determined that the actions of the Coffee 51 Flight are the primary cause for the injuries and deaths.  Despite the initial misinterpretation of the live-fire exercise as a threat to their formation, there exists a series of related disturbing contradictions between their perceptions, their actions and accepted procedures.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]I'm aware of what "human error" is. Because the pilots were on speed they were much more prone to "human error".

LOL, "speed", good one.

Amphetamines have been in use by pilots since WW2. Now all of the sudden it makes pilots drop bombs without following procedure.

[Harnu 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm aware of what "human error" is.  Because the pilots were on speed they were much more prone to "human error".

LOL, "speed", good one.

Amphetamines have been in use by pilots since WW2. Now all of the sudden it makes pilots drop bombs without following procedure.

Now, before I get too far into debate, I agree there should be punishment for the pilots.  But not so far as to be dishonorably discharged.  It was a friendly fire incident, a bad one at best.

In your quote above, I just want to say that it's probably happened many times before, it's just never become such an international incident.

[Mister Frag 0]

From http://www.nbc4.tv/news/3456872/detail.html

Quote[/b] ]U.S. Pilot Cleared In Bombing That Killed 4 Canadians

Air Force To Drop Criminal Charges Against Maj. Harry Schmidt

POSTED: 2:55 pm EDT June 24, 2004

UPDATED: 3:26 pm EDT June 24, 2004

WASHINGTON -- The Air Force announced Thursday that it will dismiss all criminal charges against a U.S. fighter pilot who accidentally dropped a 500-pound bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in 2002.

Canadian soldiers stand over the bodies of comrades killed in an accidental bombing by an American pilot on April 17, 2002.

Maj. Harry Schmidt, 37, has accepted an offer to face administrative punishment in exchange for dismissal of four counts of dereliction of duty, the Air Force said. Schmidt had previously declined the same offer.

Schmidt has said he and his co-pilot mistook the Canadians' training exercise for enemy fire from the ground.

The case against the two U.S. pilots in the accidental attack has been closely watched in Canada, where many were outraged by the bombing and the two days it took President George W. Bush to publicly apologize.

[ran 0]

Russians on the picture, not Canadians.

And it's a real shame that heads didn't roll after this incident. What happened is unforgivable

[Mister Frag 0]

Russians on the picture, not Canadians.

Good observation, I didn't notice that. It's the picture from the news story I quoted.