Doped pilots

[Guest Scooby]

As someone pointed out already there have been talks about use of amphetamines in FDF at the war time. That was couple of years ago when media found out that there were such in pilots survival kits. Finnish defence forces admitted that they have fair sized storages of amphetamines ready to be used at the war time.

Pilots would use them incase their plane would have been downed. Infantry units also have access to amphetamines during the war time to be used at long and hard battles. Long range reconnaisance units can also use them if they for example have to move out fast for many days in row.

They were already in use in WW2 at long range reconnaisance units. Problem was that when troops had been using them and depleted their storage of amphetamines they would fall down and sleep.

[DracoPaladore 0]

The first 4 combat fatalities since the Korean War and all these canadians got their panties tied in a knot.

We don't get out much, do we?

It's a simple of fact as to why they were killed. I suspect that if it was from enemy fire or a terrorist organisation of some sort, the situation would be normal. However, when these first 4 casualties of war come from your ally, whose reckless disobeying of command and rambo weekend warrior training got these men killed, there are people to blame. Fact is, the pilots were well out of range of anything, really. The only reason why the pilot "rolled in self defense" is because of a mis-fire from a Carl Gustav launcher that a soldier was using.

Just a question, do the American's not inform their pilots or crew of their allies positions and what they are doing?

All I can really say is that you're pilots are bad shots anyways. The soldier who misfired is one of the survivors.

You can't blame them for covering the IR tags on their helmets either. From the height the pilots were at, they wouldn't be able to see dick.

[toadeater 0]

I think America's modern military doctrine was created after watching the movie Aliens. That's what doped-up soldiers, Landwarrior systems and fancy gunships that get shot down by some Iraqi hick with an RPG remind me of. Or I guess the producers of that movie did their research really well.

In all seriousness, I think there's only so far that technology will take you, because the enemy always manages to catch up at a lower cost, building on your innovation and exploiting your weaknesses. The US is relying on technology way too much, and overstressing its troops, that's why so many of them are going nuts or making stupid mistakes. Information overload, stress, equipment breakdowns, not to mention occassionally having engage in actual combat.

[USSoldier11B 0]

According to UCMJ regulations, it is technically illegal for soldiers to take ANY type of medication without obtaining it properly from a military doctor or medic. Depending on what the substance is, energy boosters, performance enhancers, etc... are not sanctioned without the approval of the unit commander, even over the counter. Items such as ibuprofen, and other non-narcotic over the counter remedies are usually over looked except in a basic training environment, I'm not sure about ephedrines. Generally subtances like caffiene pills are frowned upon because of their diuretic properties that lead to hot and cold weather injuries.

[FSPilot 0]

They were apparently ordered to take these pills or they'd face a black mark on their record. It's not like it was their idea.

[Jinef 2]

And we get back to the very unprofessional USAF command.

Take these or you walk the plank?

It's idiotic, In the RAF if the pilots feel something needs to be improved we all sit down and work out new tactics or doctrine. Well i'm not sure about combat pilots, they probably have to take some stuff as it is, as there is more risk, but i'm sure they could refuse to take these, if you apply for a rear support unit you can refuse being transferred to a combat unit, unless you've contradicted yourself in forms you've signed when you join that is, subtle wankers! :-)

[DracoPaladore 0]

Cutting a months pay and giving them a 30 day vacation on the base! The humanity! Mercy for the pilots!

[FSPilot 0]

I can only blame the USAF for this one. Even though it's sort of my home team I think they made a big mistake here.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Hey, maybe I'll join the U.S. military. I can kill some allies or run over some Korean civilians with my armoured vehicle. Even if there is enough evidence to try and convict me, I'll still get off scott free. Sweet.

You guys have a nice system down there. No accountability can be cool.

Now where's ma' weapons?

[FSPilot 0]

On the other hand. We do a lot of other people's military work for them. It's unavoidable there will be accidents.

[SGTKOPP 0]

Hey, maybe I'll join the U.S. military. I can kill some allies or run over some Korean civilians with my armoured vehicle. Even if there is enough evidence to try and convict me, I'll still get off scott free. Sweet.

You guys have a nice system down there. No accountability can be cool.

Now where's ma' weapons?

i have read this entire thread and cannot believe alot of it. one,any type of war sux  people die usually the innocent people in the area of the war.  now the korea civ remark  have you ever driven in korea do you now what it is like to drive a 60 ton vehicle dow a narrrow street when oncoming traffic happens to be a convoy of bradleys.  Both of the ncos involved are friends of mine  one was my roomate  alot of this thread is discussing things you know nothing about but feeel you need to commet on it      

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]alot of this thread is discussing things you know nothing about but feeel you need to commet on it

Alright alright, no I don't know alot about what happened in S.Korea. Remark withdrawn. But why would so many South Koreas be so upset about an 'accident' from a country that has defended them for 50 years? They obviously have a reason.

As for what happened in Afghanistan, I've spoken with a few CF personell who were there and they tell me with a great deal of confidence that there is no reason why a 500lb bomb should have been dropped on their position. All you have to do is follow the news on what happened there. There was enough evidence for a court martial yet there wasn't one. Why not? What changes have been made to avoid something like this again? Any?

At minimum, those pilots flying days should be over. But it's unlikely even that will happen.

Tyler

[FSPilot 0]

The pilots weren't charged becaues it was the USAF's mistake, not theirs.

[Warin 0]

The pilots weren't charged becaues it was the USAF's mistake, not theirs.

Wow. An institution freaked out in the cockpit and pickled that bomb onto those friendly troops. I didnt think the cockpit was big enough for the whole USAF.

If you are driving your Fedex truck down the street and you get edgey and freak out while going through an intersection and accidentally run over a couple of pedestrians, it's YOUR fault, not Fedex.

Facts are facts, and negligence is negligence.

[FSPilot 0]

Warin, the pilots freaked out because the USAF forced them to take drugs. They weren't just flying along merilly, they were flying under the influence of amphetamines. This impaired their judgement, so they made a mistake.

[Warin 0]

Warin, the pilots freaked out because the USAF forced them to take drugs.  They weren't just flying along merilly, they were flying under the influence of amphetamines.  This impaired their judgement, so they made a mistake.

It's not an excuse. And the ONLY thing I have heard about them being 'forced' to take amphetamines is from the defense lawyer for those two pilots. In fact, most of the reports quoted here commented that the 'go pills' werent much more than ultra 'Wake Ups'.

If you take drugs, legal or not, you are still responsible for your actions. Just like if you drink and drive and kill someone, you are responsible.

[FSPilot 0]

And if you're forced to take drugs?

[Warin 0]

And if you're forced to take drugs?

There is no such thing.  They could have said no.  And that is a fact.  As far as I can tell from all the reports, they could have taken themselves off of flight status if they didnt want to take the 'go pills'.  They made a choice to take them and to fly.  

I'd like to see the general order that makes it a punishable offence to refuse to take drugs.

[brgnorway 0]

And if you're forced to take drugs?

There is no such thing.  They could have said no.  And that is a fact.  As far as I can tell from all the reports, they could have taken themselves off of flight status if they didnt want to take the 'go pills'.  They made a choice to take them and to fly.  

I'd like to see the general order that makes it a punishable offence to refuse to take drugs.

I have to agree on this one - even though the whole picture might be a little blurry.

What if the soldiers have a formal right to step down from the assignment but the code of conduct/pilot ethtics prohibit them from doing so.

I know from my own military experience that the code of conduct in the armed forces are very strong. Perhaps the act of saying no to the pills and giving away the assignment is considered almost immoral?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

The pilots were never officially forced to take the drugs. Though there was a possibility that the pilots could be declared unift to fly for the mission. The U.S. Airforce itself said that the 'go pills' had nothing to do with the incident. Just do a news search, you will see it.

The lawyers brought up the use of the drugs in an attempt shift the blame from the pilots to the administration. Typical legal B.S., as per usual.

[FSPilot 0]

If the pilots refused to take the drugs they would of been taken off flying status and given a black mark on their records. Officially or unofficially they would of been in trouble.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ]If the pilots refused to take the drugs they would of been taken off flying status and given a black mark on their records. Officially or unofficially they would of been in trouble.

Do you have actual proof or personal knowledge of that?

As it's been said, the USAF stated that the drugs had no effect in the bombing. Check the CNN archives. "Go Pills" have been used for a while and have been studied extensively. The pilots were neglegent, and the command structure won't punish them or make any changes in the system.

[Tovarish 0]

Case not over:

<a href="http://www.canoe.ca/OttawaNews/os.os-06-26-0004.html" target="_blank">Pilot takes 'a big risk' .

Schmidt requests court martial, could face up to 64 years in prison

</a>

Legers hoping for jail time

[Supah 0]

Case not over

Brave man, must be pretty sure he did no wrong.

[Tovarish 0]

Brave man, must be pretty sure he did no wrong.

At the least this way someone's going down for this, either the top brass or him will have to face the music, none of this slap in the wrist BS. Maybe it'll even curb this friendly fire tradition.