North korea warns us of "uncontrollable catastroph

[Jinef 2]

Hmmm I wouldn't have quite said it like that DigitalCenturion.

True some people like FSPilot have a huge overconfidence in their military while they are ignorant to everyone elses.

Now this is the part that you and Denoir will like.

Scandinavian countries are the most adept in NATO exercises. The US comes out quite low very often. Also the RAF kicks the USAF's ass every single time we do a red flag exercise while flying as the russians.

We have detected B2 bombers by the way, if you pump  out enough radar energy you can detect anything in theory non reflective shapes or not.

I would still respect the US military as a fighting force if i were you, true their fights have not been fair recently but that's war, it isn't like OFP where you place 2 squads attacking and 2 defending, look at the Falklands and compare it to a US war with NK, of course they win in the long run but with the losses you have to ask if it's worth it.

[Othin 0]

Ah yes, because obviously China would want to be seen as someone who supports a corrupt and politically dangerous government.

If you think China would side with Noth Korea in a war then you are either out of your mind are extremely ignorant to the political goals of China. China would assure that none of it's interests in the region would be hurt, and that the U.S. wouldn't be setting up shop south of their border.

If anything I would imagine them pushing south and setting up a "buffer" zone. They would also probably be pushing for U.N. action and not so much U.S. South Korean action.

It's true that most Americans are very confident in our military, and for the most part we have a reason. We're not the best out there, we're not neccisarily the best trained, and we don't have all of the coolest equipment. But by the same token we're not a bunch of clowns pressing buttons at random. Against someone like Iraq or North Korea there is no contest. Would we take losses? Yes.

Also, it seems funny to me that people always assume the U.S. learns nothing from it's engagements. Each time we lose equipment, or more importantly, people we spend ALOT of money figuring out how to prevent that the next time.

Your comment at the end dosen't even deserve a reply other then grow up.

[mr. Duck 0]

I think that the U.S. doesn't need to have the best trained fighting force in the world. They are well equipped and well trained and they are in large numbers.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 25 2002,00:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now this is the part that you and Denoir will like.

Scandinavian countries are the most adept in NATO exercises.<span id='postcolor'>

I know that Our unit came in first on the Nato (Neptune) excersise in Norway ('98 if I'm not mistaken) and my old unit KJ came in second

I wouldn't underestimate the Americans though. While on average I think US soldiers are not very impressive, their best units are really good. They have excellent training and excellent equipment.

North Korea is however a different question. They have 4-6 million soldiers that they can whip up in case of war. NATO couldn't match that. It could get very ugly.

Seen from just the military perspective, the US could win against NK, no questions about it. The fact is however that there are political factors and the question of how many of your soldiers in body bags you are willing and able to handle. I don't know the answer to that and I hope that we won't find out.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 25 2002,05:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">True some people like FSPilot have a huge overconfidence in their military while they are ignorant to everyone elses.<span id='postcolor'>

In the past 6 pages I've said maybe 2 things about the U.S. military, as well as "but that's just my ego talking". Yet you still single me out and say I've got a huge overconfidence in my military. Why the hostility?

Anyway, the thing that worries me about this war is that it might not be a conventional attack that starts it off.

[mr. Duck 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway, the thing that worries me about this war is that it might not be a conventional attack that starts it off.<span id='postcolor'>

Almost nothing goes conventional these days .

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They have 4-6 million soldiers that they can whip up in case of war. <span id='postcolor'>

But what if all Nato countries start conscripting again? Surely we will have more than 4-6 million men, right?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DigitalCenturion @ Dec. 25 2002,00:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Damn you all darn americans and your goddamn overconfidence in your army. There has been several examples of how "good" it is not very long ago, for example Somalia, now this might be hard for you to accept, but even though the US won in the movie, they didnt in real-life. It just shows that, while your shiny pants special forces are nice, when cornered by greater number they too can crumble. And remember the only reason they performed as well as they did was because they were your best of the best and so forth. Ever wondered what would have happened if it had been standard US army soldiers instead of delta force and rangers and whatnot?

Another example of your great military and unfailing airwar is jugoslavia, in what was it 96, 98? oh well... There the serbs managed to down one of your F-117 stealth fighter with a SA-3 missile (year of introduction 1961) or possibly a SA-6 (1966). The reasons were poor flying skills and tactics on the US side (they used repetitive bomb flight paths).

And since russia now sells stuff to just about anyone, i dont doubt that China has SA-10 SAMs, and they have prolly passed along some info of those to the Koreans too. Besides if US decides to go to war with NK (i highly doubt it) what stops China from joining in. They have alot to gain if they win, and i have good reasons to believe that they are the dominant military power in the region.

To sum it up: the US military is a club of jackasses and cowboys who hasnt fought an even match since WW2.

Oh well...

I'll just go and buy a world trade center miniature now and play some Osama bin Laden airlines... merry christmas, New York and the rest of the USA<span id='postcolor'>

*flags for moderators*

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DigitalCenturion @ Dec. 24 2002,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Damn you all darn americans and your goddamn overconfidence in your army. There has been several examples of how "good" it is not very long ago, for example Somalia, now this might be hard for you to accept, but even though the US won in the movie, they didnt in real-life. It just shows that, while your shiny pants special forces are nice, when cornered by greater number they too can crumble. And remember the only reason they performed as well as they did was because they were your best of the best and so forth. Ever wondered what would have happened if it had been standard US army soldiers instead of delta force and rangers and whatnot?

Another example of your great military and unfailing airwar is jugoslavia, in what was it 96, 98? oh well... There the serbs managed to down one of your F-117 stealth fighter with a SA-3 missile (year of introduction 1961) or possibly a SA-6 (1966). The reasons were poor flying skills and tactics on the US side (they used repetitive bomb flight paths).

And since russia now sells stuff to just about anyone, i dont doubt that China has SA-10 SAMs, and they have prolly passed along some info of those to the Koreans too. Besides if US decides to go to war with NK (i highly doubt it) what stops China from joining in. They have alot to gain if they win, and i have good reasons to believe that they are the dominant military power in the region.

To sum it up: the US military is a club of jackasses and cowboys who hasnt fought an even match since WW2.

Oh well...

I'll just go and buy a world trade center miniature now and play some Osama bin Laden airlines... merry christmas, New York and the rest of the USA<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry I'm not American (from Calgary Canada, so pretty damn close though) but you are way off base there. First Somalia? Since when would 18 dead vs 1000+ and completing their mission (the capture of the 2 men) be considered defeat? They didn't crumble, they stood up to overwelming odds, and survived the night. Politics aside it was a resounding victory.

Second yes a F-117 was downed. 1. In how many successful combat missions over very capable air defences. Wow, 1, damn I guess that showed them. Plus that SA-3 was under visual guidance so it better have worked if they could see what they were attacking.

Why all the hate for all things American? Would the world be a better place if they didn't exist? I don't think so. I'm damn glad they are my neighbours. I couldn't imagine Canada surviving if the nation beside us wasn't as free and democratic as the USA.

As for the rest of you comments they don't even deserve a reply.

COLINMAN

[ralphwiggum 6]

DigitalCenturion, post something relevant to topic. blank flaming attack on a nation will result in post restriction.

[Warin 0]

You have to wonder if there arent a lot of dispatches flowing between Iraq and NK. I mean come on, just as the US starts in on the hard core war rhetoric, NK starts lipping them off. To me it seems a little serendipitous. After all, it's throwing it in the face of the world that one of the 'Axis of Evil' members is lkely in possesion of WMD, and basically throwing up a challenge... thus painting themselves to be more of a threat than Saddam will be for years... and then sitting back to watch the US continue to aim their sights squarely at Iraq.

It would make sense, I think.

I have no illusions that NK or Iraq will hand a defeat to the US (Nor would I for a moment WANT that, no rational person could. Rational people however would rather not see conflict when it can be avoided). I do however think that either situation will rapidly get to a point where the US public raises an outcry over casualties. Look how bent people get when anyone is killed. Multiply that furour by several hundred or thousand times...and who knows what will happen

[FSPilot 0]

Personally I hope it doesn't come to a war. But if both Iraq and NK are going to work on WMDs when they're not allowed to have them, then both Iraq and NK are going to have to be dealt with.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 25 2002,06:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally I hope it doesn't come to a war.  But if both Iraq and NK are going to work on WMDs when they're not allowed to have them, then both Iraq and NK are going to have to be dealt with.<span id='postcolor'>

Again, it comes back to the rather curious idea that the US has the right to be the ultimate arbiuter of who can and cannot produce and/or develop WMD.

No matter how much I hate to say this, it is not the prerogative of the US to decide what is best for the world.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, it comes back to the rather curious idea that the US has the right to be the ultimate arbiuter of who can and cannot produce and/or develop WMD.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Both the U.S. and U.N. decide this. Bio/Chem weapons are now illegal, they can only be owned for testing purposes.

Besides, would you really want countries like Iraq or Korea having the potential the launch chemical or nuclear weapons?

[FSPilot 0]

I don't think it's that the U.S. is trying to defend the world, but we're trying to defend ourselves, and our allies. If NK wanted to nuke Iraq we probably wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 25 2002,07:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think it's that the U.S. is trying to defend the world, but we're trying to defend ourselves, and our allies.  If NK wanted to nuke Iraq we probably wouldn't have a problem with it. <span id='postcolor'>

Good point.

I guess I am just a little cynical. While I dont want to see Iraq and NK with WMD for a variety of reasons, I find it offensive that the 'in' club is deciding who can and cant have what. And like it or not, to these crack pots, WE are the bad guys. And in the grand scheme of things, it's only our hubris that allows us the assumption that we are right and they are wrong

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 24 2002,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think it's that the U.S. is trying to defend the world, but we're trying to defend ourselves, and our allies.  If NK wanted to nuke Iraq we probably wouldn't have a problem with it. <span id='postcolor'>

Of course the US would have a problem with it, just like practically every country other than North Korea.

That is because nobody near the Korean peninsula or anywhere else would want North Korea to have nuclear weapons, much less use them.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Dec. 25 2002,12:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And like it or not, to these crack pots, WE are the bad guys.  And in the grand scheme of things, it's only our hubris that allows us the assumption that we are right and they are wrong <span id='postcolor'>

Who was it that said "war does not decide who is right, only who is left"

or something like that

[digitalcenturion 20]

Well atleast im glad you even read my post. maybe it was abit rash and unmotivated but i felt that i needed to post that after reading a bunch of imho very ignorant posts. The last part of my post was a direct responce to the rice bag in the dumpster thingy, in case anyone didnt figure.

I find your change of stance very curious tough. First some of you say that the North Koreans lack air war training, tactics and supplies, wich atleast made me make the logical conclusion that you tought that the US had those things. Supplies, yes they do have alot of supplies and training, but i think the serbian incident proved that your tactics atleast arent the best of the best.

Slighlty OT:

I do trust US equipment alot. The F-18 Hornets finland (my cntry) got are pretty spiffy planes, altough if i had been the one to decide i would have gotten SU-27 Flankers and upgraded the electronics and fitted them with AIM-120 Amraams.. how cool wouldnt THAT have been  

[llauma 0]

USA is digging it's own grave.. All around the world an anger against USA is building up. US soldiers doing crimes outside their bases but still USA wont allow the country to judge them in which they are.

USA not accepting the International court of justice because that could mean that US generals and even presidents could be judged for crimes againt humanity. All this while US suprime court seems to judge foreign countries.

I could continue for ever and even more will come to the surface.. just wait and see

As it is now USA is like the biggest kid at school who beats up every other kid who does not do what pleases him.

At last it's only one way it can go... and it aint your way.

[Kep Kelagin 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 24 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I just heard that there was a major earthquake in North Korea.

Oops, it was just the starvin' population of North Korea stomachs grumbling all at once.  

Think I'll go buy a ten pound bag of rice and throw it into a dumpster....   Merry Christmas North Korea.  Remember don't eat the Christmas tree, that tinsel isn't to good for you  

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

Like everyone in the US have plenty to eat and can pay their bills...

[Jinef 2]

America will fall.

AND BRITAIN WILL RULE THE WORLD FOREVER! MUHAHAHAHA

*cough*

Anyway, moving swiftly on, i agree that if NK wanted to bomb Iraq then America couldn't care less. America would think, okay then - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - and would soon after realise that is complete bollocks.

America and Europe always seems to look for short term solutions to problems without thinking, more so America as lot's of European countries have started to look for alternative sources of energy and create cars like the new BMW one which runs on water etc.

Fine let's say for the sake of argument that America destroys Iraq's and NK's weapons of mass destruction (that they have for the sake of the argument) and put's in a democracy and everyone is happy and loves their new Nike trainers. What then? Oh look a new fanatical terrorist regime has appeared, what a bloody suprise! WTCs mk 2 have just fell down and so has the white house! Jed W Bush thankfully is on Air Force one talking to aircraft carriers off the coast of countryX.

Israel has fallen due to several large mainly Arabic orientated countries invading after the gulf war #2 set off a huge regional bloodbath in the ME.

And so on and so forth until we realise that there is a new energy source and we don't need oil and we can stop sucking it from the ME.

btw: Have nice pressies?

[bwenke75 0]

IMHO,  For many years the United States has had there hands tied politically to handle many problems in other parts of the world that directly concern them.   And since 9/11 president bush and congress have taken a different stance to the rest of the world.   Before the united states would sit back and wait to see what would happen with whatever problem that might be going on.   And that got them 9/11...   Now, instead of sitting back and waiting, they are trying to stop things before they get out of hand.   Is this a good tactic? maybe,   seems to piss alot of people off.   But then again sitting and waiting got New york in flames.   You might say this has nothing to do with Iraq and north Korea, but it does.   Its still the change in stance to the rest of the world.....     I am an American and damn proud of it.  And personally I agree with the new stance.   Also, personally I think NK is bluffing.......        

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Dec. 24 2002,14:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As it is now USA is like the biggest kid at school who beats up every other kid who does not do what pleases him.<span id='postcolor'>

This is what i do not like about US politics, nice country, weird culture , but very very special politics...

What you say is true, perhaps i'm too young to understand why, but i cannot figure out what gives Europe and the US the right to tell other countries what to do...

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DigitalCenturion @ Dec. 25 2002,04:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well atleast im glad you even read my post. maybe it was abit rash and unmotivated but i felt that i needed to post that after reading a bunch of imho very ignorant posts. The last part of my post was a direct responce to the rice bag in the dumpster thingy, in case anyone didnt figure.

I find your change of stance very curious tough. First some of you say that the North Koreans lack air war training, tactics and supplies, wich atleast made me make the logical conclusion that you tought that the US had those things. Supplies, yes they do have alot of supplies and training, but i think the serbian incident proved that your tactics atleast arent the best of the best.

Slighlty OT:

I do trust US equipment alot. The F-18 Hornets finland (my cntry) got are pretty spiffy planes, altough if i had been the one to decide i would have gotten SU-27 Flankers and upgraded the electronics and fitted them with AIM-120 Amraams.. how cool wouldnt THAT have been  <span id='postcolor'>

Now, remember I'm not American, but their training is second to none because they have the money to actually get in the planes and fly around a lot

Also you say Serbia proves that wrong. No it doesn't 1 F-117 has been shot down in how many, 1000+ sorties into some of the densed air defences in the world? I'd say that shows some good equipment, training and planing.

Basically it all comes down to do you believe there is good and evil in the world? I do and I don't think the USA represents the evil. They have the freest country in the world and they enjoy the spoils of their freedom and work and that makes a lot of people jelous. Do they medle in other countries affairs? Yes, but you have to. The cold war was bad, communism was a virous that was taking over the world. Very simply communism was evil and the USA did make a huge effort to get rid of it from the world. I'm glad that the USA is our neigbour and not the USSR. Canada would be very different if something like that was the case. Now a new threat has come along and attacks because they see the USA as evil. I'm not one that believes that you sit back and react. You have to take inisitive to survive and that's what the USA is doing. Do you think there is any goodness in the terrorists that believe killing civilians is a good tatic? They should be attacked and all chance of organization destroyed. If a country supports them or gives them a place to train they deserve to be attacked. Simple really.

COLINMAN

COLINMAN

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Dec. 25 2002,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What you say is true, perhaps i'm too young to understand why, but i cannot figure out what gives Europe and the US the right to tell other countries what to do...<span id='postcolor'>

We're protecting ourselves, and our allies.

Like I said before, if NK nuked Iraq we probably wouldn't get all uppity about it.