Jets - ILS

[YanYatCheng 96]

It's been a long time, as i know, no one fix this issue that brings unrealistic game play to ArmA3 jet game-play: wrong ILS, Instrumental Landing System.

 

The ILS in real life works like this:

which use...blah blah blah... and have a 3 degree glide slope, which is around ~600m/s for vertical speed.

 

But the one in ArmA is having a ILS glide-slope that is more than 5 degrees:

 

A steep glide-slope may, or will cause a critical and deadly damage to the landing gear, which will cause a crash on final. Having a right ILS is critical to all jet pilots when landing at bad weather, or even night, or even having short range graphic generation which will completely make them blind on a normal ILS approach or a extended base leg.

 

I hope this will bring attentions to the developer and correct this mistake.

At last, I would like to thank all developers and mod makers for their hard work towards the coming Jet DLC.

 

Here's the ONLY glide slope that i found right in ArmA3 (i dunno why...):

 

[rksl-rock 1300]

10 minutes ago, YanYatCheng said:

 

Here's the ONLY glide slope that i found right in ArmA3 (i dunno why...):

 

Because i spent ages getting the HUD correctly set up 

[YanYatCheng 96]

33 minutes ago, rksl-rock said:

Because i spent ages getting the HUD correctly set up 

that's why, very very very nice work! 

[john111 76]

+1 from me.This is what we want...!

[Jnr4817 215]

Would love to see this in the helicopters too.

[YanYatCheng 96]

13 hours ago, Jnr4817 said:

Would love to see this in the helicopters too.

if i was not mistaken, there's no guidance system for helicopter to land since heli can land everywhere, you should trust your skill to estimate the descend and touchdown zone (my flight instructor in ArmA3 told me to aim 5 meters foward of your touchdown zone and come in like a plane with slow speed 

[gatordev 219]

14 hours ago, YanYatCheng said:

if i was not mistaken, there's no guidance system for helicopter to land since heli can land everywhere, you should trust your skill to estimate the descend and touchdown zone (my flight instructor in ArmA3 told me to aim 5 meters foward of your touchdown zone and come in like a plane with slow speed 

 

An ILS in a helicopter works just like in an airplane and gives guidance to the TDZ.  Speed shouldn't matter in the real thing.  I have no idea why that should matter in A3.

[dragon01 902]

I'm not sure how it'd work, though, unless you're literally landing a helo on the runway like an airplane (which isn't impossible, just pointless in most cases). ILS is a complex, radio-based system, so unless they set up a second one for helos, on a separate channel, then it's gonna be exactly the same as in an airplane, including the glideslope and touchdown point. Also, ArmA airports (dunno about IRL) don't seem to have a dedicated "landing spot" for helos (which would be needed to use ILS), you need to come in directly to a helipad.

[Jnr4817 215]

I'm not a pilot, but fly in helicopter often for my job. An ILS is needed in helo's when conducting IFR operations. We also use GPS (RNAV) approaches and each has its own challenges, minimums, etc. Breaking out at 300 feet is awesome and an ILS is a much needed tool in a helo and plane operations. Usually the helo will have the same IFR procedures for the airplane and then break off to the helipad. Depending on the model of aircraft. We usually end our approach at 60 knots and 50 feet above the ground mid runway.

THanks

[YanYatCheng 96]

11 hours ago, dragon01 said:

I'm not sure how it'd work, though, unless you're literally landing a helo on the runway like an airplane (which isn't impossible, just pointless in most cases). ILS is a complex, radio-based system, so unless they set up a second one for helos, on a separate channel, then it's gonna be exactly the same as in an airplane, including the glideslope and touchdown point. Also, ArmA airports (dunno about IRL) don't seem to have a dedicated "landing spot" for helos (which would be needed to use ILS), you need to come in directly to a helipad.

maybe a placable ILS system as a object, because I've seen alot of group having their own pad. but maybe this can bring up on another topic. 

but before adding another system in, they need to fix the current one first. duplicating the problem will only make things more complicated 

[dragon01 902]

Read the post above yours, helos use the same ILS as planes for approach, then break towards the helipad once above the runway. In that case, they follow the same glideslope and cues as airplanes, but the ILS doesn't guide them all the way to the landing point.

 

For ArmA, the obstacle to implementing ILS in helos is lack of proper controls. In airplanes, it's linked to landing gear state. Not all helos have retractable landing gear (CSAT ones don't, for instance). For planes, it's not an issue, since the only fixed gear plane in the game also doesn't have an ILS receiver.

[Jnr4817 215]

I hope all of the aircraft get an updated hud with some form of ILS use.

[gatordev 219]

 

I know we're starting to get off topic, but it is relevant if BIS is trying to implement reality...

 

 

On 3/25/2017 at 9:40 AM, dragon01 said:

Read the post above yours, helos use the same ILS as planes for approach, then break towards the helipad once above the runway. In that case, they follow the same glideslope and cues as airplanes, but the ILS doesn't guide them all the way to the landing point.

 

The ILS (or any precision approach system) DOES guide a helo to the TDZ, just as it does for fixed-wing.  Whether the helicopter decides to continue all the way to touchdown doesn't matter, the gear works the same.  If you're shooting an approach to absolute mins in a helicopter, it can actually be much safer to fly it like a fixed-wing rather than trying to pull it into a hover.  And if you have wheels, it can be safer to just run it on, again, like fixed-wing.

 

At the end of the day, though, it's the same system and can be utilized the same way.  Where you break off will depend on regulations and aircraft equipment/capability.

[Jnr4817 215]

30 minutes ago, gatordev said:

 

I know we're starting to get off topic, but it is relevant if BIS is trying to implement reality...

 

 

 

The ILS (or any precision approach system) DOES guide a helo to the TDZ, just as it does for fixed-wing.  Whether the helicopter decides to continue all the way to touchdown doesn't matter, the gear works the same.  If you're shooting an approach to absolute mins in a helicopter, it can actually be much safer to fly it like a fixed-wing rather than trying to pull it into a hover.  And if you have wheels, it can be safer to just run it on, again, like fixed-wing.

 

At the end of the day, though, it's the same system and can be utilized the same way.  Where you break off will depend on regulations and aircraft equipment/capability.

Truth.

[dragon01 902]

Not all helos have wheeled landing gear, though. Those that do can, of course, touch down on the runway and just taxi to the helipad. Those that don't have to break off and land on the helipad (not necessarily from a hover, but from a steep approach). TBH, I don't know what's the actual procedure used in commercial aviation. The military generally seems to do prefer hovering, though (then again, I haven't seen how they operate when they have an airfield handy).

[Jnr4817 215]

1 hour ago, dragon01 said:

Not all helos have wheeled landing gear, though. Those that do can, of course, touch down on the runway and just taxi to the helipad. Those that don't have to break off and land on the helipad (not necessarily from a hover, but from a steep approach). TBH, I don't know what's the actual procedure used in commercial aviation. The military generally seems to do prefer hovering, though (then again, I haven't seen how they operate when they have an airfield handy).

In our practice, civilian Air EMS, our helo has skids. Our practice of completing a precision approach is to break off when VFR conditions are met (800ft AGL with 3 miles vis), then slowly air taxi to the landing pad. The precision approach usually brings us down to 50ft AGL at approx. 60knots, for some reason we cannot make back to an airfield with minimum VFR conditions. From there the pilot can come to a hover, then taxi to the landing area.

[gatordev 219]

2 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Those that don't have to break off and land on the helipad (not necessarily from a hover, but from a steep approach).

 

Again, all of that is irrelevant.  We're not talking about the what the pilot does, we're talking about how the precision approach works.  And no matter what the helo's configuration, the approach works the same for FW vs RW....it's an approach to the TDZ.

 

Quote

The precision approach usually brings us down to 50ft AGL

 

I know this is a thing, but still, that's pretty damn impressive.  50' is less than the allowable error of an Baralt, but man pretty cool the system can pull that off.  I can shoot a coupled approach to that altitude, but it has to be (basically) over water and isn't part of a published approach or tied to it.  Stuff like this makes me look forward to civilian life.

 

Quote

TBH, I don't know what's the actual procedure used in commercial aviation. The military generally seems to do prefer hovering, though (then again, I haven't seen how they operate when they have an airfield handy).

 

I appreciate that you may be finally realizing you're in the deep end of the pool.  Probably time to step away from the keyboard.

[dragon01 902]

In case you didn't noticed, in ArmA, all big helicopters are military. I might not be familiar with civilian operating procedures, but that's completely irrelevant. We're only talking military helos here (the only civilian one has skids and no ILS anyway). I never had a chance to see a helo come or go at the local airport (which includes a military airbase), but I'm capable of reading about it, thank you very much. For the record, my DCS: Black Shark manual doesn't mention the ILS at all, and as for roll-out landings, it has this to say:

Quote

This landing is used if it is impossible to perform a hover due to lack of engine power (high mountain fields or high ambient temperatures). The landing is performed on an airfield or on a tested field with available approaches.

This makes it sound like it's a contingency procedure, as far as Ka-50 goes. The "normal" landing is a vertical one. The helicopter does not touch down on the airstrip in normal conditions. It would seem that Ka-50 doesn't even have ILS. Granted, it's a Russian helo and a somewhat older one at that, but I don't think procedures for other military helos differ much in that regard.

 

I suppose you could touch down on the runway, but all evidence points to it not normally being done unless the landing is in adverse conditions.

[gatordev 219]

1 minute ago, dragon01 said:

In case you didn't noticed, in ArmA, all big helicopters are military. I might not be familiar with civilian operating procedures, but that's completely irrelevant. We're only talking military helos here (the only civilian one has skids and no ILS anyway).

 

2 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

I suppose you could touch down on the runway, but all evidence points to it not normally being done unless the landing is in adverse conditions.

 

I am talking about military helos.  And if you're shooting an approach to minimums, it IS adverse conditions.  But that wasn't the original discussion point.  The original discussion point was that an ILS (or any precision approach) is built to take the aircraft to the TDZ (Touch Down Zone, which is different than physically touching down) regardless if it's an airplane or helo.  And it's not uncommon to shoot the approach to minimums, and if weather is really poopy, to land on the runway as a helicopter.  I've had to do it myself.

 

But hey, what would I know?

[veles-zv 176]

On 3/24/2017 at 10:23 PM, dragon01 said:

I'm not sure how it'd work, though, unless you're literally landing a helo on the runway like an airplane (which isn't impossible, just pointless in most cases). ILS is a complex, radio-based system, so unless they set up a second one for helos, on a separate channel, then it's gonna be exactly the same as in an airplane, including the glideslope and touchdown point. Also, ArmA airports (dunno about IRL) don't seem to have a dedicated "landing spot" for helos (which would be needed to use ILS), you need to come in directly to a helipad.

what do you mean its impossible. i do it all the time especially with cargo helicopters which are overloaded, the soviets did rolling takeoff and landings all the time with the Mi24 and the mi8 in Afghanistan. also ive seen helicopters in real life on civilian airports takeoff from the aprons/ ramps or whatever you want to call them, some airports do in fact have helipads, but I have also seen helicopters use taxiways to get to the runway  both in departure and arrival.  

[dragon01 902]

I said it isn't impossible. Rolling takeoffs and landings are common place for hot and high conditions (like in Afghan) and heavily loaded helos. Runway can be used, as well, if needed. However, given what we have in ArmA, I just don't see the point of going through the trouble of doing that. 

[oukej 2910]

ILS in game is following the glideslope as configured for individual airfields. Each one has only single active runway at all times - so for example on Tanoa main you can't fly ILS from the sea-side, even though that one may have a more comfortable approach with a safer glideslope angle. The configuration has also been taking into account AI. Balancing had to allow the AI to fly into the base leg and approach safely high enough above the terrain and while keeping tolerable vertical speed so AI remains safe all the way to the stop (except of Buzzard, right ;))

Agreed, that some of the glideslopes could be perhaps tweaked. Atm I can't say why there has been 5° on the northern Tanoa airfield.
On the other hand...what's been the glideslope @ London City? ;)

[veles-zv 176]

1 hour ago, dragon01 said:

I said it isn't impossible. Rolling takeoffs and landings are common place for hot and high conditions (like in Afghan) and heavily loaded helos. Runway can be used, as well, if needed. However, given what we have in ArmA, I just don't see the point of going through the trouble of doing that. 

hmm my bad. I was also thinking about a script someone could make to simulate high altitude environments for helicopters by reducing power or collective, would add some extra challenge for helicopter pilots maybe in arma 4 with the new enfusion engine(please devs if you are watching from heaven also known as BIS studios make the enfusion engine modern which allows for parallel multi-threading) ... one can dream. 

[Jnr4817 215]

15 hours ago, oukej said:

ILS in game is following the glideslope as configured for individual airfields. Each one has only single active runway at all times - so for example on Tanoa main you can't fly ILS from the sea-side, even though that one may have a more comfortable approach with a safer glideslope angle. The configuration has also been taking into account AI. Balancing had to allow the AI to fly into the base leg and approach safely high enough above the terrain and while keeping tolerable vertical speed so AI remains safe all the way to the stop (except of Buzzard, right ;))

Agreed, that some of the glideslopes could be perhaps tweaked. Atm I can't say why there has been 5° on the northern Tanoa airfield.
On the other hand...what's been the glideslope @ London City? ;)

Tweaking of the glideslopes would be awesome.

 

As far as helicopters (in game), having the option in game for them to use ILS would be awesome. Some of the fog settings can present a very challenging travel between airports and adding the benefit of using a precision approach for helicopters would make the game that much better.

 

London City Airport (UK) has a GS angle of about 5.55 degrees.

 

Humbly,

 

 

[gatordev 219]

6 hours ago, Jnr4817 said:

London City Airport (UK) has a GS angle of about 5.55 degrees.

 

Wow, and I thought KNKX was bad.