Tanks - Fire-control system

[bakimaster91 16]

I ve got one bug report, in the newest DEV branch I ve noticed that in tanks, APCs, IFVs (doesnt matter) in any vehicle that has Your new FCS there is one big problem.

 

The new FCS calculates the range, auto elevates guns and machine guns, calculates lead magnificently....only when standing... whole new story begins when the vehicle starts to move and LASEs targets... the FCS goes crazy and treats its own vehicle movement as a movement of the target in crosshairs and applies lead ! :P I mean I am moving for example 20km/h in an AMV-7 and the target is on my 2 o'clock at 2km distance and its not moving at all. So I lase the target keeping it in my crosshairs (pressing LASE key only single time not to calculate lead) and after positive ranging I shoot and... rounds fall to the right of the target constantly, re-lasing does nothing, it happens every time, in every FCS equipped vehicle and in similar situations, either if the target is on the right side or left or whatever.

 

As a proof:

 

[oukej 2910]

On 6. 5. 2017 at 6:18 PM, bakimaster91 said:

I dont know if DEVs will even notice my feedback.. How Can I put it to the feedback tracker?? 

We did ;) Thanks a lot.

[sammael 366]

questions to devs. Are you planing to add automatic target tracking for tank FCS since all modern tanks have it  ?We already have this desired function   on UAV camera

[oukej 2910]

35 minutes ago, sammael said:

questions to devs. Are you planing to add automatic target tracking for tank FCS since all modern tanks have it  ?We already have this desired function   on UAV camera

Not planned for any of the current vanilla tanks.

[zimms 22]

Implying future vanilla tanks might get it. ;)

[R3vo 2654]

17 hours ago, oukej said:

Not planned for any of the current vanilla tanks.

 

That would be the icing on the cake.

[dragon01 902]

On 12.05.2017 at 2:03 PM, zimms said:

Implying future vanilla tanks might get it. ;)

Make that future DLC tanks. :) That said, tanks as a whole will be reworked for tanks DLC, so maybe they'll change their mind.

[Eldowww 9]

would it be possible to add the indicated distance + speed onto custom binoculars?

[S3blapin 15]

I was thinking about all the improvement added by the jet DLC and how we can use it for other vanilla feature.

 

I know that some of them are not just tank related but they can be used by tank so I decide to post my ideas here:

 

- Turret stabilization switch for tank

 

Use the same system than the TGP or the drone turret to activate the Stabilizer. It would only lock an area and wouldn't go in "point" mode. When you press the center view, instead of going to the selected target it will just point at the same target than the commander view. This would emu late correctly hunter-killer ability.

 

- Commander turret stabilized

 

Same system than the tank turret but allow "Point" mode for this one. It wI'll commander to continusouly check the surrounding but also keep a target in sight.

 

- Commander incoming data display

 

Add to the commander a new display that show a list of all target identified by him or other vehicle (depending if data receiving/sharing is activated). This display would allow him to go through the target list with Previous/Next Target key. He would then be able to go directly to the selected target by pressing "center view" key (like TGP)

 

And you can expand some of those ideas to other vehicle:

 

The commander stabilized view could be really usefull on vehicle like Ifrit etc, while the Turret Stabilization Switch would be extremely usefull for chopper turret (being able to activate this would make the turret more reliable and effective!)

 

[pils 49]

Guys, why is the FCS of tanks limited to 3000m??

Even the 1995 introduced Leopard 2A5 with its gunner main optical system EMES 15 can measure ranges of up to 9999m with an accuracy of +/- 10m, whereas ranges up to 4000m are processed by the FCS directly. At distances >4000m, the gunner can manually enter the value and the FCS will then process the data - as said, up to 9999m.

And that's technology introduced in 1995, Arma 3 is supposed to take place 40 years later.

 

3000m ultimative FCS processing limit, that's what ... 1980s technology?

Even in the Gulf War in 1990/1991 Abrams and Challengers were accurately engaging and destroying Iraqi tanks and vehicles at ranges beyond 3000m on a regular basis!

 

Please, increase the capabilities of the FCS in Arma 3.

[bakimaster91 16]

Guys, why is the FCS of tanks limited to 3000m??
Even the 1995 introduced Leopard 2A5 with its gunner main optical system (EMES 15) can measure ranges of up to 9999m with an accuracy of +/- 10m, whereas ranges up to 4000m are processed directly by the FCS. At distances >4000m, the gunner can manually enter the value and the FCS will then process the data - as said, up to 9999m.
And that's technology introduced in 1995, Arma 3 is supposed to take place 30 years later.
 
3000m ultimative FCS processing limit, that's what ... 1980s technology?
Even in the Gulf War in 1990/1991 Abrams and Challengers were accurately engaging and destroying Iraqi tanks and vehicles at ranges beyond 3000m on a regular basis!
 
Please, increase the capabilities of the FCS in Arma 3.

Exactly, what You said... DEVs please deal with it, the same with TGPs for aircraft as in real life they measure distance from like 20kms away not 5km...

Wysłane z mojego SM-G920F przy użyciu Tapatalka

[sammael 366]

+1 for that

 

But this never happens because of the BIs  gameplay balance

[xxgetbuck123 945]

I don't think the tank FCS needs to be 10km as when are you going to see an enemy tank 10km, most tank engagements are like 500m-3km most, firstly you need your render up that high which a lot of people can't handle. But I do think the FLIR pod needs to range up to at least 10km. The current 5km ranging means you have to get a bit too close to the enemy, especially when AA can find you easily at that range. 

 

Overall FLIR pod could see an increase in range finding up to 10km, while FCS could maybe go up to 5km. 

[pils 49]

7 hours ago, xxgetbuck123 said:

I don't think the tank FCS needs to be 10km as when are you going to see an enemy tank 10km, most tank engagements are like 500m-3km most, firstly you need your render up that high which a lot of people can't handle. But I do think the FLIR pod needs to range up to at least 10km. The current 5km ranging means you have to get a bit too close to the enemy, especially when AA can find you easily at that range. 

 

Overall FLIR pod could see an increase in range finding up to 10km, while FCS could maybe go up to 5km. 

 

All that is not really relevant. Relevant are real life parameters.

The typical range for tank engagements depends very much on the terrain. As said, engagement ranges were commonly beyond 3000m during Desert Storm (which is why the coalition forces destroyed several thousands of Iraqi tanks and vehicles while losing hardly any units to enemy tank fire).

Abrams tanks have recorded kill shots beyond 4000m. The longest range confirmed kill of the war was achieved by a Challenger 1, destroying an Iraqi tank at 4700m distance.

And that was in 1991.

 

(Rumors claim, state of the art tanks like the Leopard 2A7+ (with its new L55 main gun), Armata or K2 Black Panther are supposed to have effective ranges of up to 5000 - 6000m. And it's 2017. Arma 3 takes place in 2035.)

 

Btw.: I'm playing with 6500 - 8000m view distance (depending on number of active AI; view distance: general + objects!) on Liberation CTI servers with 30 - 40 fps.

My system is anything but fancy: i5-4670K + GTX 760.

[dragon01 902]

Armata "cheats" a bit by using guided missiles, which require no firing solution. IIRC, its maximum range with unguided shells is actually something like 3 or 4km (mostly limited by the ranging equipment). Generally, tank-mounted lasers don't have the capability of measuring such extreme distances, because they would have to be too large and power-hungry. Kills at 4km+ could have been achieved by ranging with the reticle and manually inputting the range into FCS. This is inaccurate, but only limited by how far the manual ranging knob goes (or maximum barrel elevation, but I don't think it's usually the case).

[Beagle 684]

I served with the 2nd Armoured Recon Batallion (2/2 Panzeraufklärer) in the 90's. We had 2 heavy platoons using Leopard 2A4. From what we were always told I still know that shots above 3000 meters where considered tricks shots. Such hits are only possible if you use the Tank like an artillery piece. both targets and Firing plattform must be immobile. The effective range for firing on the move was considerd 1500m and firing on the move on moving targets was 1000m. I get the impression some player her etend to everestimate the posibillities. Btw the way the guns and stabilizations work have not really changed since the 80's. There is still a lot of heavy mechanical drives and inertial barriers at work which hamper precision a lot.

Also keep in mind that Sabot round loose penetration power very fast beyound 2000 meters. At such ranges HEAT will have more destructive power...but usually only on outdated MBTs...The main targets in the gulf war were export models of T-54, T62 and T-72.

[das attorney 858]

@Beagle  Thanks - interesting to hear from someone who served in a tank batallion.

 

I know a couple of dudes in the UK military and they scoff at what the manufacturers claims their equipment can do.  Of course the manufacturers say it can do x,y,and z;  they're trying to sell it!  

[dragon01 902]

9 hours ago, Beagle said:

I get the impression some player her etend to everestimate the posibillities. 

That is usually the case. :) Manufacturers and propagandists alike tend to put up stats achieved in ideal conditions during testing. In actual combat, it never works out that way. It's easy to hit a wooden dummy which isn't popping smoke, moving to trying to shoot back. In actual use, capabilities go way down.

Quote

Also keep in mind that Sabot round loose penetration power very fast beyound 2000 meters. At such ranges HEAT will have more destructive power...but usually only on outdated MBTs...The main targets in the gulf war were export models of T-54, T62 and T-72.

This is a serious limitation that is often overlooked by tank fanboys. Many critics of the Armata system don't get it, either, as far as I saw. It's indeed impossible for its gun to be able hit moving targets at 4km using shells - the impressive-looking stats are for guided missiles, which just happen to be fired from the gun barrel (and which are not even a new idea, Soviets have been using that tech for years) and only require you to keep your sight pointed on the target, as opposed to fiddling around with a firing solution. It is a big advantage over Western tanks, but missiles come with their own disadvantages, most notable being vulnerable to APS and reactive armor.

[pils 49]

On 16.6.2017 at 3:46 PM, Beagle said:

I served with the 2nd Armoured Recon Batallion (2/2 Panzeraufklärer) in the 90's. We had 2 heavy platoons using Leopard 2A4. From what we were always told I still know that shots above 3000 meters where considered tricks shots. Such hits are only possible if you use the Tank like an artillery piece. both targets and Firing plattform must be immobile. The effective range for firing on the move was considerd 1500m and firing on the move on moving targets was 1000m. I get the impression some player her etend to everestimate the posibillities. Btw the way the guns and stabilizations work have not really changed since the 80's. There is still a lot of heavy mechanical drives and inertial barriers at work which hamper precision a lot.

Also keep in mind that Sabot round loose penetration power very fast beyound 2000 meters. At such ranges HEAT will have more destructive power...but usually only on outdated MBTs...The main targets in the gulf war were export models of T-54, T62 and T-72.

 

That's because the Leopard 2A4 is 1980s technology. It was introduced in 1985 - more than 30 years ago. And 50 years before Arma 3 takes place.

Yes, actually I would like to see APFSDS rounds losing energy quicker in Arma 3.

By the way, the Challenger 1 kill shot at 4700m during Desert Storm was an APFSDS round - with a tungsten penetrator, not even DU!

The tank they hit was either a T-62 or T-64, can't remember which one it was.

 

According to (link) the new Rheinmetall L/55 120mm cannon has an effective range of 4000m using DM53 shells. However, the DM53 shells have tungsten penetrators. The US forces have developed much more powerful APFSDS shells using DU (I'm pretty sure you all know about that). 

Adapting that kind of DU shells for the L/55 will probably get you even more than 4000m effective range.

Plus, that's the effective range in 2017. It's still some time until 2035 and of course tanks can and will fire at targets beyond their effective range - especially if they are just trying to supress a position, hit a much larger and stationary (e.g. a house) or a stationary light armored vehicle.

[pils 49]

On 16.6.2017 at 0:27 PM, dragon01 said:

Armata "cheats" a bit by using guided missiles, which require no firing solution. IIRC, its maximum range with unguided shells is actually something like 3 or 4km (mostly limited by the ranging equipment). Generally, tank-mounted lasers don't have the capability of measuring such extreme distances, because they would have to be too large and power-hungry. Kills at 4km+ could have been achieved by ranging with the reticle and manually inputting the range into FCS. This is inaccurate, but only limited by how far the manual ranging knob goes (or maximum barrel elevation, but I don't think it's usually the case).

 

Again, even the laser range finder of the 1990s Leopard 2A5 could measure ranges up to 9999 m with an accuracy of +/- 10m.

Nowadays, even civilians can buy (link) laser range finders with a range of more than 16 kilometers with and an accuracy of +/- 1m!

That thing is handheld and consumes 3 W while measuring the range. Three Watt, that's 3% the energy consumption of a decent traditional light bulb, lol!

[S3blapin 15]

On 16/06/2017 at 3:46 PM, Beagle said:

I served with the 2nd Armoured Recon Batallion (2/2 Panzeraufklärer) in the 90's. We had 2 heavy platoons using Leopard 2A4. From what we were always told I still know that shots above 3000 meters where considered tricks shots. Such hits are only possible if you use the Tank like an artillery piece. both targets and Firing plattform must be immobile. The effective range for firing on the move was considerd 1500m and firing on the move on moving targets was 1000m.

 

Huh? Really. I always thought that leo2 had at leat on part performance with the AMX Leclerc (minus the firing on the move).

 

Just to remember, the Leclerc is able to hit a 2x2m target at 3.5-4km while moving at 45-50kph and with the target also moving. And the hit chance was above 95%.

 

I know it's completely useless against tank at that range (you explain pretty clearly why) but I would thought that the Leo2 could at least shot at pretty long range.

 

 

 

[dragon01 902]

Is that data from actual combat, or from tests? It sounds like a bit of a stretch. I can imagine that being possible only if they're moving in parallel, in the same direction and over relatively flat terrain. Even then, it'd probably have to be firing the APFSDS round, which is useless at such extreme ranges (HEAT does not lose effectiveness with speed, but it has inherently shorter range due to being larger and heavier).

[S3blapin 15]

It was made from test during the evaluation phase. Remember that the Leclerc see real combat only (with the UAE).

 

I know it's totally useless against a tank. I just wanted to show that long range shot are possible even for a late 80's tank.

 

And from what I remember, yeah the tank and the tager was moving parallèle but in opposition direction (at those distance the turret can follow it pretty easily). I don't know about the terrain.

 

Just point out that engaging moving target at +2500m while you also move is possible. Of course, the Leclerc is the best in that category, was specifically build to engage moving target (even chopper), and even other armies agrees that even today it's a vastly superior tank when it comes to engage target quickly and precisely.

 

But being good (one of the best) at shooting doesn't necessarily means being the best tank.

[dragon01 902]

Parallel motion over flat terrain at constant speed is not a significantly different problem than stationary firing. In fact, even if the target couldn't be lased, manual data input (well, that and a bit of luck) would work just fine in such case. It is possible to accurately estimate target speed and range using the reticle or a mechanical rangefinder, but it's a very special case. Most notably, the range stays almost constant. With some skill, I can see this being a repeatable performance. Trying to hit a target moving diagonally, or even moving over bumpy terrain (commonly found everywhere outside of test ranges and golf courses) would make such shots purely a matter of luck, though. Not to mention that APFSDS in particular requires a direct hit to a vital component if you're shooting at softskins (forget about penetrating any sort of armor at that distance), you need to do a lot better accuracy than 2x2m area to do significant damage.

 

The point is, this is on paper maximum performance. In actual combat, it's very unlikely to be replicated. 

[Beagle 684]

21 hours ago, S3blapin said:

 

Huh? Really. I always thought that leo2 had at leat on part performance with the AMX Leclerc (minus the firing on the move).

 

Just to remember, the Leclerc is able to hit a 2x2m target at 3.5-4km while moving at 45-50kph and with the target also moving. And the hit chance was above 95%.

 

I know it's completely useless against tank at that range (you explain pretty clearly why) but I would thought that the Leo2 could at least shot at pretty long range.

 

 

 

There is a BIG difference beetween the proving ground and what tanks can do after 60km on the road, heating upp to 50° inside and after years of usage mannes by conscripts.

The factory test numbers are never achieved by average crews in tanks than are in use for a decade. Spare parts where hard to come by even back then and we usually had to cannibalize for parts.

The reality of an tank batallion is not factory test. We even spend most of our dayds allingning the gun system since it likes to go whacky all the time.

 

Dont trust factory sheets, thats just advertisment.

 

The figures I stated are rules of thumb that give the highest kill probabilities. You dont go to the edge of the envelop to make a hit and run attack as an armoured recon platoon. You rely on steath and want to make sure none will be left to report you when you have to make it back to your side of the frontline. Trick shots at long ranges are not the way to go. You are already safe when you can engabe the opponet outside of his effective fire range Ther eis no need to extend it further. Btw, the terrain we trained for was rolling hills with dense forrest...long range shots are not really a thing there.

 

The training grounds: https://www.google.de/maps/@51.188437,9.7568603,710m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de

and here: https://www.google.de/maps/@50.886858,9.4169399,5723m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de

 

tactics for desert warfare do not work there.