Tonci87 163 Posted November 25, 2015 Nice to see that the navigator is safe. I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle here. I think the Russian plane did enter Turkish airspace, but I also believe that the Turkish claims are wrong. The couldn´t have warned the plane 10 times in that half a minute it was in their airspace. The Turkish fighter jet couldn´t have been able to get his orders, close in that fast and then fire his missile. The only sensible explanation I have is that A) The Turkish planes were waiting for the SU to reach their airspace and already had their orders on what to do and basically ambushed the SU. B) Had to follow the SU into Syria because I doubt the Russian pilot would have entered Turkish airspace with Turkish jets in close proximity. I guess the Russian pilot was thinking he can get in and out before the Turks have any chance to react and get close, he didn´t expect them to just wait for that move and be willing to follow him back into Syria. Basically to me it looks as if Erdogan wanted to show the world how "strong" he is, beeing fully aware that Russia can´t risk to retaliate against a NATO member. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontknowhow 33 Posted November 25, 2015 Nice to see that the navigator is safe. I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle here. I think the Russian plane did enter Turkish airspace, but I also believe that the Turkish claims are wrong. The couldn´t have warned the plane 10 times in that half a minute it was in their airspace. Apparently they started issuing warnings before they entered Turkish airspace: http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/audio-tuaf-warns-ruaf-su-24/ EDIT: that's the best audio I could find, sorry. It seems that this has been confirmed by American sources. The interesting thing is that I heard that the pilots claimed they received no warnings. Now, I heard a couple of experts on TV, before the pilot said anything, saying that this is actually possible, due to different frequencies and languages. Someone says this is a consequence of the high number of planes in the area. Whatever that is, shooting down a plane for a few seconds is insanity, and it's pretty clear from what basically everyone else within NATO said. I know Erdogan was mad at the Russians because they were bombing his people; I'm quite sure this is related. Which means that the story might not be over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted November 25, 2015 Well, those warning have become standart by now, Turkey has warned many russians planes to turn away as they were flying towards their border, the Russians have become used to it. Maybe they should have said "This time we´ll fire a missile at you for real if you don´t turn away." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altis 12 Posted November 26, 2015 It will be interesting if Russia actually do deploy their S-400 SAM system, thats a game changer for everyone flying around Syria including the IDF who seem to bomb what ever and who ever they want in Syria at will, they may need to liase with Russia to avoid any 'accidents' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carlostex 38 Posted November 26, 2015 Well we know that Russia isn´t too shy to manipulate or outright fabricate evidence (see Ukraine) but in this case I´m inclined to believe them. Maybe their aircraft did pass over Turkish airspace for a very brief time but that is no reason to shoot it down. Even if it did pass over Turkish airspace it was out of there so fast that the Turkish fighter must have pursued it into Syria to fire off it´s missile. How about that story when a pair of SU-24's buzzed the USS Donald Cook and supposedly jammed the Aegis radars making the whole destroyer blind? Does anyone still believe that story? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontknowhow 33 Posted November 26, 2015 How about that story when a pair of SU-24's buzzed the USS Donald Cook and supposedly jammed the Aegis radars making the whole destroyer blind? Does anyone still believe that story? That's interesting. Episodes in the Black Sea are known, but I didn't know about the Aegis. Oh well, things have to change slowly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tnct 0 Posted November 26, 2015 Recreation of the downed Su-24 incident using ARMA2 https://www.facebook.com/765237066859174/videos/900735206642692/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
exe_74rus 1 Posted November 26, 2015 Europe, it is worth remembering that the first Istanbul was Constantinople. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontknowhow 33 Posted November 26, 2015 Europe, it is worth remembering that the first Istanbul was Constantinople. Actually it was Byzantium. Before that, apparently, it was Lygos. So what's your point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semiconductor 309 Posted November 26, 2015 S-400 has been deployed somewhere near Latakia more than eight hours ago. That's surprisingly fast if you ask me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted November 27, 2015 If you want to see the reach that the S-400 has. I thought first that it was S-300 but S-400 makes this move even more interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pulstar 55 Posted November 27, 2015 Europe, it is worth remembering that the first Istanbul was Constantinople. I wanted to respond to your bullshit in a rude fashion, but I already got warned once haha. S-400 has been deployed somewhere near Latakia more than eight hours ago. That's surprisingly fast if you ask me. It was planned far ahead, contingency it seems. Turkey’s Erdogan warns Russia not to ‘play with fire’ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/turkeys-erdogan-warns-russia-not-to-play-with-fire/article27505957/Get a room, you two. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grayace 2 Posted November 27, 2015 It's been a while since the last time I post something around, but I need to express this, Im a Turk and my country is being shifted to right-wing more and more, Western hemisphere shouldve handled the current government in a much more cautious way but they've laid red carpets to them, and backed the approach till this day, now they are sending their warnings about the media (journalists are being imprisoned for too long) and also sending concerns about the war in Syria... and this government recently won another election with 49% of votes, altough half of the voters represent 35 million+ people that prefer to have a secular, modern future, I dont have much hope from future now, because what has happened to Turkey is financed from Europe and Saudia in the first place, On the other hand, this crisis with Russia, I felt sorry for the crisis, especially sorry for the Russian soldiers torned in the process but after seeing Russians' furious black propaganda* and comments, now I can only think what the hell? Turkey is not dependend to NATO or Russia totally, and Russia is not there to fight ISIS, whole process would be different if they aim to destroy ISIS and radicals, My point is, radicalism is being fueled everyday, bombing other elements, keeping people in a hopelessness, furious and mindless talks are serving more and more to this, Russia can have its base it Syria, Syria government can have a large soil, Kurds can have their federal governance, Shiite, Alevis and Sunnis can live in isolated areas as well, what the hell you cant share in there? oil? what good does it serve if there is a chaos and anarchy over there... Last thing is, Turkey can very well decimate any Russian conventional offensive without NATO, but in the end, would you like to see a Syria-like Turkey with 70 million refugees? I need to remind that 300.000 people has already overwhelmed Europeans, so leaders should work on a solution not more destruction, let people control the radicals... *Pilots were warned, which has been confirmed by allied air units who heard the warnings, *Pilots indeed fly over the Turkish airspace, they have been warned for months in various diplomatic channels, *Their motive to fly over Turkish airspace is to bomb northern face of the hills, because Syrian army artillery can only bombard southernface *Turkmens are our kin, they fight ISIL but some good portions can be radicals, dont know them very well, Im an deist but I cannot forget my kin, so they should be contained rather than bombed indiscriminately *Turkmens has been bombed intensively and lost the control hill but apperently it was tactic, because in the nightfall they have regained control of the hill and Syrian army has lost personnel... People are dying because of nothing, nobody showing any progress in this war, ISIS is too busy with planning other terrorist activities becuase they are enjoying the chaos... (you may put the blame Turkish government, I'd agree, but DO NOT PUT the blame on Turkish people) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pulstar 55 Posted November 27, 2015 Yea grayace, nobody talks about Turkmen's plight, they view all people in Syria who disapprove of the Alawite regime as terrorists (especially fans of the russo-axis). It is typical hypocrisy and double-standards, and the sad thing is that everyone does it to suit their interests or ideological inclinations. Putin isn't a humanitarian, nor is Obama or Cameron. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semiconductor 309 Posted November 27, 2015 People are dying because of nothing, nobody showing any progress in this war So what does Turkey's general public thinks about Erdogan's motives? I mean, no matter how I look on the situation it seems that he won nothing and might lose much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spooky lynx 73 Posted November 27, 2015 Yea grayace, nobody talks about Turkmen's plight, they view all people in Syria who disapprove of the Alawite regime as terrorists (especially fans of the russo-axis). It is typical hypocrisy and double-standards, and the sad thing is that everyone does it to suit their interests or ideological inclinations. Putin isn't a humanitarian, nor is Obama or Cameron. Well, please tell me what will be done with group of people who would gather massive rallies without any permission from authorities against regime in, let's say, USA or Germany, then would refuse to quit rallies, and, after SWAT tries to disperse protesters, start armed rebellion, killing policemen and military servicemen, using civilian houses as firing positions etc. you may put the blame Turkish government, I'd agree, but DO NOT PUT the blame on Turkish people Even on Bozkurtlar members like Alpaslan Celik whose group killed Russian pilot? BTW what do they do in Syria? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grayace 2 Posted November 27, 2015 So what does Turkey's general public thinks about Erdogan's motives? I mean, no matter how I look on the situation it seems that he won nothing and might lose much. Similar to public interest on hitler back in 1935s.... really!, half of the population is extremely against him, we practically hate him and his party, and half of them seeing him as a great leader, because he has fixed the economy and acted in a more charismatically... (actually what he did is, imprisoned the journalists, imprisoned the chief of staff(!) and so many military personnel for years, has overtaken the important companies and given them to accomplices, he has used religious groups in favor in the process and then declared them outlaws... he tries to foster a population with less liberal ideas, controlled by religious nonsense and work like slaves..) We already lost too much in this crisis, Russia was an important economic source for us, we were enjoying incoming tourism, cheap energy inputs and we were selling/exporting to them equipments, machinery, agricultural stuff etc... its a huge loss for both sides, mainly for Turkey, it may very well effect our daily life for sometime, but; On the other hand We can impose serious measures against them as well, but what is the point? Russia should be more concerned about in competition with China and US rather than being furious at us and taking furious decisions, If Russia suffers another Afghanistan in Syria (probabilities are way too high) it will be a another devastation for all the players except the radicals... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted November 27, 2015 Similar to public interest on hitler back in 1935s.... really!, half of the population is extremely against him, we practically hate him and his party, and half of them seeing him as a great leader, because he has fixed the economy and acted in a more charismatically... (actually what he did is, imprisoned the journalists, imprisoned the chief of staff(!) and so many military personnel for years, has overtaken the important companies and given them to accomplices, he has used religious groups in favor in the process and then declared them outlaws... he tries to foster a population with less liberal ideas, controlled by religious nonsense and work like slaves..) How long will the Turkish Army tolerate such treatment ? It used to be the guardian of secularity... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grayace 2 Posted November 27, 2015 Well, please tell me what will be done with group of people who would gather massive rallies without any permission from authorities against regime in, let's say, USA or Germany, then would refuse to quit rallies, and, after SWAT tries to disperse protesters, start armed rebellion, killing policemen and military servicemen, using civilian houses as firing positions etc. Even on Bozkurtlar members like Alpaslan Celik whose group killed Russian pilot? BTW what do they do in Syria? Yeah good point, I was thinking about it, if I try to sneak Syria and joined the fight, Id be taken into custody, somehow these fanboys managed to go and join others, and in the video clip where they're shooting at parachutes, some people were shouting "Allahuekber" and also some were shouting "dont shoot dont shoot they are captives, captives coming!" Im not going to name them or organisations backing them up if any, since I feel comfy in my room, and I dont plan to go in a prisoncell anytime soon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grayace 2 Posted November 27, 2015 How long will the Turkish Army tolerate such treatment ? It used to be the guardian of secularity... our Army has been long time standing guardian of Secular Republic, thanks to European support, EU declared our military as an obstacle in our democracy* everytime, around 2007 Generals and Admirals were framed with a coup scenario and imprisoned right away... soon after people were applausing when ErdoÄŸan told them "we have imprisoned them because military was abusing the *democracy*".... in the reality, it was crystal clear who was abusing it.... Generals and Admirals were sentenced to lifetime in prison after years of trial, then these religious organisation declared outlaw who has framed the Generals with the coup scenario, in 2014 after the 17-25 December events (they were emptying the treasure...) Soon after, Generals and Admirals released without an apology and ErdoÄŸan said that they have been tricked(!)... guess what, people once again applaused... *actually gladio was the opposition, not the top management, thanks to NATO, gladio is their legacy in our countries... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontknowhow 33 Posted November 27, 2015 what has happened to Turkey is financed from Europe and Saudia in the first place, Ehm... http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/10/us-eu-turkey-idUSKCN0SZ0SA20151110#58jyyP67KrSBetxu.97 I'd like to think that my tax money is used more properly than financing Erdogan's ego Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sudayev 27 Posted November 30, 2015 https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/587 Some rumors about Turkey blocking Dardanelles strait. Not sure how true it that since movement through this region is regulated by international regulations Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
St. Jimmy 272 Posted December 2, 2015 Russian Ministry of Defense is saying that they will reveal evidence of Turkey helping ISIS. They say they've satellite pictures of ISIS oil trucks passing Turkey's border. They also claim that Erdogan with his family are involved in oil trade between Turkey and ISIS. So some shots could be fired next week. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted December 2, 2015 Russian Ministry of Defense is saying that they will reveal evidence of Turkey helping ISIS. They say they've satellite pictures of ISIS oil trucks passing Turkey's border. They also claim that Erdogan with his family are involved in oil trade between Turkey and ISIS. So some shots could be fired next week. Yep, time to grab some popcorns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
