Greece navigating "uncharted territory"

[mistyronin 1181]

The hypocrisy of fraulein Merkel and her cohorts is quite astonishing,maybe she should open some history books and read how Spain and Greece helped Germany recover after the war with the dept cancellation.

True but have in mind that Greece got all kind of possible help. Greece it's the only country in the EU that has to pay the debts in 16 years, instead of 7 like the rest.

I mean it's not like if the EU and its citizens have forgot about Greece, just the opposite. Greece has received a lot of millions that poured into nothing.

Germany got all kinds of help after WW2, but they used it an efficient way.

The main issue is that Greece has change the way it works to become a modern and efficient country. An Greece outside the EU seems really unlikely because of all the geopolitical issues that it would create (the links with NATO, immigration, etc.).

As I linked before China is already offering even money to the EU to avoid Greece from exiting it. Also the POTUS itself is on the matter:

(USA Today) Obama, Europe leaders urge Greece to resume debt talks

[Tonci87 163]

Is there any real issue with them leaving? It's not like that we would see any money back from them if they stayed, because broke is broke.

Well investors and banks would loose a LOT of money and we know that those always come first for our governments

[oxmox 73]

Maybe you both can agree on these articles about this activist campaign in London, found something for you.

Thousands join Greek solidarity protest in Trafalgar Square

http://www.london24.com/news/politics/political_heavyweights_join_greece_solidarity_campaign_in_trafalgar_square_1_4131655

Trafalgar Square protest: Anti-austerity activists hold demonstration over Greek debt crisis

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/trafalgar-square-protest-antiausterity-activists-hold-demonstration-over-greek-debt-crisis-10353748.html

[x3kj 1247]

Uhm, more absurd RT propaganda.

So...

1. I fake how much money I earn to get inside the Eurozone and borrow a lot of money from my colleagues.

2. Once it's shown that I won't be able to return the money, I ask for a renegotiation of the debt.

3. I keep getting in debt, using even twice the money I earn.

4. I promise to my EU colleagues that if they pay me the interests, I will use the rest of my money to pay the debt.

5. I keep getting in debt buying military stuff and others.

6. My EU colleagues tell me that if I want more money from them I'll have to take certain measures.

7. I ignore them and keep getting in debt.

8. The EU guys give me an ultimatum with a deadline.

9. I ignore the deadline and ask for a referendum one week later...

10. I accuse the EU people of "an act of financial war".

:confused:

So RT reporting about Brits protesting against those things is propaganda? :confused: It's hardly their fault that people protest against it

[mistyronin 1181]

So RT reporting about Brits protesting against those things is propaganda? :confused:

Yup.

Check everyday RT news, it's all about how the EU countries and the US are decadent, shitty, corrupted, in deep crisis and how Russia is the best country in the World.

They exaggerate news or simply make them up.

Being the more well funded of all the Kremlin owned media, well just investigate a bit on it ;)

[srbknight 925]

Tsipras concedes most bailout demands

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e82e0256-1fcb-11e5-ab0f-6bb9974f25d0.html

Edited July 1, 2015 by R0adki11

[mistyronin 1181]

(BBC) Greece debt crisis: Tsipras in new bailout 'concessions'

Greece's Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has offered new concessions to the country's creditors.

A letter to creditors sent by Mr Tsipras says he was prepared to accept most conditions that were on the table before talks collapsed and he called a referendum.

On Tuesday, eurozone finance ministers refused to extend the previous bailout.

Germany says a new agreement on a bailout would not be possible until after the referendum this weekend.

[batto 17]

You can help to crowdfund a bailout fund for Greece right now! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund . Can't believe people actually donated €907,086 already o_O. As for me, I'll rather donate to my favorite artists or to catgirl research or just burn the money.

[mistyronin 1181]

You can help to crowdfund a bailout fund for Greece right now! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund . Can't believe people actually donated €907,086 already o_O. As for me, I'll rather donate to my favorite artists or to catgirl research or just burn the money.

Well, as an EU citizen I've been paying Greece for a long amount of years... so no more :)

[drebin052 324]

We promise that all profits will go to the Greek people and all products will be 100% Greek.

Not sure whether to laugh or facepalm to be honest. Are some people really that delusional? Or do they just want to pat themselves on the back and think they'll feel better about the issue by throwing money into the toilet?

It's like Kony 2012 all over again...

[oxmox 73]

Jubilee Debt Campaign movement view on the Greece issue....

Greece crisis: How has Greece spent its money and who does it still owe €242.8bn to?

Only 10 per cent of borrowed money has gone to the Greek people

Almost all the money owed by Greece has been used to pay off its lenders, with only 10 per cent of it going to the Greek people, according to the Jubilee Debt Campaign.

"Greece is right not to pay the IMF. The IMF should never have lent the money in the first place, with over 90% of it being used to bail out European financial institutions," Sarah-Jayne Clifton, Director of the Jubilee Debt Campaign

They argued banks should cancel some of the debt, rather than bailing the banks out with IMF loans. Europe and the US overruled them. Ever since, the Greek government has been in crisis.

"Only if the debts stop being paid, whether through default or debt cancellation, is there a route out of this crisis," she added.

A Jubilee study has shown that since 2010, the IMF, European governments and the European Central Bank has lent €252 billion to Greece. Over the same period, €232.9 billion has been spent on debt payments, bailing out Greek banks and paying ‘sweeteners’ to speculators to get them to accept the 2012 debt restructuring. This means less than 10% of the money has been used for anything else.

Back in 2010, nearly all government debt was owed to private entities such as banks. Today 78 per cent is owed to the public sector, primarily people in other Eurozone countries, but also throughout the world through the IMF’s loans.

The following chart from the BBC and Open Europe shows who Greece still owes money to.

Clifton said that in 2010 when the IMF loans were agreed, developing countries on the IMF Board argued that banks should share in the costs of the crisis they had helped to create.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/greece-crisis-how-has-greece-spent-its-money-and-who-does-it-still-owe-2428bn-to-10355847.html?icn=puff-1

@I didnt follow the greece crisis into details and understand the critics in general on the IWF. Its practice and results in other countries, especially third world countries, around the world. With all its harsh conditions influencing inner politics at the back of the ordinary people.

But since normal banks are not going into such risks with loans, what is the alternative to the Troika (ECB/IWF/European Comission) anyway ?

And what about other European countries which actually recovered in recent times after such loans ?

Edited July 1, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

And what about other European countries which actually recovered in recent times after such loans ?

Most of the European Money given to Greece was to pay the interests, to avoid them to increase.

Basically the idea is. You are in debt with the banks, so as a colleague I'll give you some money so you can pay the interests in order to allow you to pay the debt faster.

Instead of cutting your expenses and paying the debt, you go on holidays and buy a new car. And ask the banks to simply forget about the debt.

The other European countries: Cyprus, Ireland, Italy and Spain did cut their expenses and are almost debt-free. But countries like Spain didn't owe money in the past, they only did after saving the "too big too fail" banks.

Greece is different because of all the bad management and corruption. It doesn't matter if in Greece the Gov increases the taxes a 200%, because few pay them.

Greece is in deep troubles, and it already was before joining the Eurozone. And until them are solved you can drop as much money as you want that is not gonna solve anything.

But since normal banks are not going into such risks with loans, what is the alternative to the Troika (ECB/IWF/European Comission) anyway ?

Do you remember Argentina? Basically what the Troika is asking, but even worst.

[srbknight 925]

Most of the European Money given to Greece was to pay the interests, to avoid them to increase.

Basically the idea is. You are in debt with the banks, so as a colleague I'll give you some money so you can pay the interests in order to allow you to pay the debt faster.

Instead of cutting your expenses and paying the debt, you go on holidays and buy a new car. And ask the banks to simply forget about the debt.

The other European countries: Cyprus, Ireland, Italy and Spain did cut their expenses and are almost debt-free. But countries like Spain didn't owe money in the past, they only did after saving the "too big too fail" banks.

Greece is different because of all the bad management and corruption. It doesn't matter if in Greece the Gov increases the taxes a 200%, because few pay them.

Greece is in deep troubles, and it already was before joining the Eurozone. And until them are solved you can drop as much money as you want that is not gonna solve anything.

Do you remember Argentina? Basically what the Troika is asking, but even worst.

I guess problem is in failed european system of banking and bankster propaganda nobody is go so far with banks on the back !

[mistyronin 1181]

I guess problem is in failed european system of banking and bankster propaganda nobody is go so far with banks on the back !

:confused:? Have you read what I wrote (and you quoted)?

The main problem in Greece it's its Govs, and the corruption there.

[srbknight 925]

:confused:? Have you read what I wrote (and you quoted)?

The main problem in Greece it's its Govs, and the corruption there.

i am talking in different way this will just make them more in deep for another 7-10 years ! it's not solution just to feed them with credits some changes need's to appear this could create again mass protests riots on the streets i was been last year in Greece for holidays and it's so quiet like before the storm !

Edited July 1, 2015 by SRBKnight

[mistyronin 1181]

i am talking in different way this will just make them more in deep for another 7-10 years ! it's not solution just to feed them with credits some changes need's to appear this could create again mass protests riots on the streets i was been last year in Greece for holidays and it's so quiet like before the storm !

What will make the Greeks be more in debt? And what does that have to do with your previous comment where you said that the European banking system is failed?

These days, what's on stake is if Greece wants to make an agreement with the EU in which the EU will give them money if the Greek Gov implement certain measures.

The banks are not an issue, as you can see in the image oxmox linked, the Greek debt with the banks is just 5% of the total debt.

The funny fact is that no matter if the Greek Gov accepts the EU agreement or not. Because they will have to take that same measures even if they go on their own, or fail completely.

Edited July 1, 2015 by MistyRonin

[srbknight 925]

What will make the Greeks be more in debt? And what does that have to do with your previous comment where you said that the European banking system is failed?

These days, what's on stake is if Greece wants to make an agreement with the EU in which the EU will give them money if the Greek Gov implement certain measures.

The banks are not an issue, as you can see in the image oxmox linked, the Greek debt with the banks is just 5% of the total debt.

The funny fact is that no matter if the Greek Gov accepts the EU agreement or not. Because they will have to take that same measures even if they go on their own, or fail completely.

Banking system is so against people in every country but in Greece it's almost insane Greek people said that their pensions and salaries 40% will be less after this branch of money so i don't think this would fix problems or the Europe has nobody to solve this problems for fixing Greece problems i guess it's very acceptable for most of banks and creditors IMF is the problem it is controlling most of the countries economy and the Greece is not actual that change the taxes it's IMF ! in Serbia after consulting with IMF they cut the salaries and increase taxes they have rights for that!

[mistyronin 1181]

Banking system is so against people in every country but in Greece it's almost insane

I don't understand. What does the banking system in Europe has to do with the Greek crisis? And that the Greek people are poorer.

The main issue is the corruption and the bad management of resources by the Greek Government. It has little to do with the banks.

If you get in debt crazily, it's your problem, not the bank. The banks could have avoid borrowing more money to Greece, but as it's well known the Greek Gov. falsified their balance in order to get into the Eurozone and to ask for more money.

in Serbia after consulting with IMF they cut the salaries and increase taxes they have rights for that!

That has happened because Serbia got in debt and needed money from the IMF. But it's Serbia's fault. Obviously the IMF will borrow the money in exchange of certain guarantees.

Banks are not NGOs.

What you are implicitly saying is that you want that the other countries give money to Serbia and Greece for free without conditions...

Edited July 1, 2015 by MistyRonin

[gammadust 12]

I don't understand. What does the banking system in Europe has to do with the Greek crisis? And that the Greek people are poorer.

The main issue is the corruption and the bad management of resources by the Greek Government. It has little to do with the banks.

There are three ends in the corruption crime: the corrupted, the corruptionist and the victim. And it goes like the corruptionist pays the corrupted to gain access to some previledge at the expense of a third party. The simplicity with which you lay the problem hides the corruptionist from view. You focus only on the Greek Government and the Greek People. Apparently the banks have little to do with it. While one is unable to answer what was the priviledge that was made accessible at the exchange of what value and what was the expense of whom. Any opinion is incomplete and negligeable.

A - It was at the expense of the Banks, that the People payed the Government to gain access to something?

B - It was at the expense of the People, that the Banks payed the Government to gain access to something?

C - It was at the expense of the Government, that the People payed the Banks to gain access to something?

Yes? No? None of the above? Tell me. Can you make the break down of the remaining possibilities and pick your guess? This question is actually extended to anyone. Or is the corruption issue even more complex?

Raising the question and having no idea how it works seems too flawed an argument.

---

Let's attempt to see the complexity then...

If you get in debt crazily, it's your problem, not the bank. The banks could have avoid borrowing more money to Greece, but as it's well known the Greek Gov. falsified their balance in order to get into the Eurozone and to ask for more money.

If you owe a bank thousands, you have a problem; owe a bank millions, the bank has a problem.

- John Paul Getty (attributed)

Meaning the bank did not evaluate properly the risk it was incurring, neglected its economic function as a risk manager, and now must face the consequences. Except that in the current situation since 2008 crisis the "risk" and the "problem" is being transfered to a third party. Supposedly, under Capitalism, failing at your business brings yourself bankrupcy, unless you are "too big to fail", in which case the failing business relies on the ad hoc State's "Finance Welfare" to bail them out (ie. at the expense of everyone).

It was Goldman Sachs that provided the experience, created the financial products to the Greek Government that enabled the latter to hide the massive deficits allowing the European Union to pretend not knowing how financially unsound that would be.

Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

but you claim to already know this:

Yup, that is another subject... How the Greek Gov. falsified the data to join the Eurozone...

...but of course it is another subject. Just venture two seconds in identifying where the shady business was and you divert to more palatable headlines and content:

(Financial Times) Greece condemned for falsifying data

[BTW, here is a FT link not behind a paywall and no referals to the accessibility of those reading us]

In fact it is the same subject after all, it's just that you chose to ignore key dimensions of the events.

---

What you are implicitly saying is that you want that the other countries give money to Serbia and Greece for free without conditions...

The economic function of the lending institution, if serving its own interests and the overall economy, is to make sure the borrower will be able to pay fully and within schedule. Under the assumption that the conditions, if any, it imposes are those that further those interests, which are also in common with the borrower. But if this is true why lend then, if:

[The Guardian] 30 June 2015 - IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt

Secret documents show creditors’ baseline estimate puts debt at 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to all tax and spending reforms demanded by troika

The cited guardian document - Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis for Greece

which Varoufakis mentions and constitutes open admissions of the impossibility of compliance on the negotiating table:

Over the past five months the Greek Government and the institutions have made great efforts to reach, within the framework of the 20th February 2015 Eurogroup Statement, an agreement for a broader and deeper reform process durably improving growth and employment prospects, achieving debt sustainability with financial stability, and enhancing social fairness.

On 22nd June 2015 the Prime Minister of the Hellenic Republic submitted a comprehensive proposal, which was accepted as a basis for discussions and possible agreement by the institutions. At the Eurogroup meeting of 25th June 2015 the institutions submitted three

different documents, namely

1. Reforms for the completion of the current program and beyond – including the proposition for a Staff Level Agreement (SLA)

2. Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis for Greece

3. Greece – Financing needs and draft disbursement linked to the completion of the fifth review

---

It is open for anyone to see how incongruently schizophrenic these "institutions" have become. Knowing full well that the measures aggravate the situation and make void the stated objectives, yet are still willing to risk the whole financial system on imposing those measures on the government that noticed it and is refusing to follow the stupidity.

Edited July 1, 2015 by gammadust

[mistyronin 1181]

gammadust I'll answer without quotes to avoid a hyper-long reply.

1. The main legal responsible of getting in debt, is the person / organization that gets in debt. I think that we will all agree on that.

2. The main legal responsible of falsifying documents is the one that presents them, not who supplies / forge them. I think that we will all also agree on that.

So in point 1 and 2 the Greek Gov is shown clearly the main responsible. Goldman Sachs stands as subsidiary responsible for the second point.

- - -

Greece not only got in debt with the banks, but also and mainly with the IMF and the EU. We have to remember that Greece was in really poor conditions before joining the Eurozone, hence we can assume that the Greek Gov. falsified the information to obtain benefits from the other EU countries.

We have also to remember that Greece not only did not try to repay the debt but kept expending way above their possibilities, twice as their GDP in late 2000s. In that period, they imported more weapons than Israel and Iran together in the same period.

You say that the conditions the EU & IMF propose to Greece in exchange are stupid and would still leave Greece in debt. It's your opinion. But other countries that were in the same situation followed them and now their economies are better (Spain, Ireland, Cyprus and Italy).

The big problem on the table is that if Greece impose austerity measures, then the Greek military corrupts and all the other levels of corruption would lose their business, and that would be really bad for them.

The reality is that no matter what, even if Greece doesn't reach an agreement with the EU and chooses to abandon the EU. They will still have to apply that kind of measures in order to solve their situation or be in permanent crisis.

That's the official expenditure (it's calculated that the real one is quite higher):

Edited July 1, 2015 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

@GammaDust

The issue with Grees & EU membership and the help of US Banks i.e. Goldman Sachs is definately a mess and such possible actions should be rather limited. What actually happened here and what was Greece doing with the help of Banks is fraud, but nobody says it in public.

IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt

Secret documents show creditors’ baseline estimate puts debt at 118% of GDP in 2030,

even if it signs up to all tax and spending reforms demanded by troika

Greece would face an unsustainable level of debt by 2030 even if it signs up to the full package of tax and spending reforms demanded of it, according to unpublished documents compiled by its three main creditors.

The documents, drawn up by the so-called troika of lenders, support Greece’s argument that it needs substantial debt relief for a lasting economic recovery. They show that, even after 15 years of sustained strong growth, the country would face a level of debt that the International Monetary Fund deems unsustainable.

The documents show that the IMF’s baseline estimate – the most likely outcome – is that Greece’s debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to the package of tax and spending reforms demanded. That is well above the 110% the IMF regards as sustainable given Greece’s debt profile, a level set in 2012. The country’s debt level is currently 175% and likely to go higher because of its recent slide back into recession.

Even under the best case scenario, which includes growth of 4% a year for the next five years, Greece’s debt levels will drop to only 124%, by 2022.

--> reminds me on the statement about the Ukraine and 4% growth per year to get to 2013 standards in 20 years.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed?CMP=share_btn_tw

Edited July 1, 2015 by oxmox

[gammadust 12]

@MistyRonin

1. it ceases to be the main legal responsible from the moment that, negleting his economic function, the liabilities the bank is incurring and the leverage they apply on it (way above those with real deposits ~12x vs 15x-300x)* put the whole financial system at risk.

2. the main legal responsible is the entity accessing a priviledged access and most benefiter of the scheme. It is up to discussion who benefited most with those derivative products, if the ones falling for the trap, the ones unloading the financial junk or the ones facilitating the deal.

*this, btw, is the result of the fine idea of mixing back together the commercial and financial banking institutions. Something which since the Great Depression is the BIG NO NO of financial regulation.

- - -

1. Everyone is wondering what benefits were those that those countries gained access to. Because it shows nowhere. Do you mean the general population benefits, or the bank accounts of the members of the different governements participating in the scheme?

2. Expending on what way above whose possibilities. The population did not even see it, we are talking about a recycle between banks, only a small fraction of such money entered the Greek economy.

3. It is IMF's document that aknowledges that the measures "would still leave Greece in debt". What is my opinion is that insisting on austerity is stupid, because there is no excuse anymore of ignoring the failure of the results.

4. Most of those countries pointlessly increased their Debt to GDP, and by many other economic indices are in worse shape than before. Proving with more than one example that the measures are a failure.

5. The "there is no alternative" argument has de facto been disproven observing Iceland, which did not blindly bailed out the banks, opting to safeguard the real economy they supported, separating the latter from their risk assement failures. But even not considering Iceland's example, only lunacy leads a deciding party to expect different results out of the same measures which created the problem in the first place (ie. increasing unsustainable debt).

I would also add, but this is the Greek People's prerogative, that i would prefer to at least earn back my nation's sovereignty in any process that does not assure me the opposite. Maybe follow the examples that showed success in that regard, or even find creative solutions. The current Greek government is not even being that ambitious for the Troika being that adamant.

- - -

I don't think the defense expenditure is a very favouring argument for the troika, if it is the population that is the recipient of the austerity.

---

@oxmox

Exacly my point, i linked up that Guardian article in somewhere in the middle of my last post. Fraud is a serious argument for odious debt and i don't know if we are even ready to discuss that aspect...

[bBC] 18 June 2015 - Greek debt 'illegal, illegitimate and odious'

A committee convened by the Greek parliament has claimed much of the country's debt of 320bn euros was illegally contracted and should not be paid.

(...)

However the evidence marshalled by he debt truth committee could be used in a potential court case by the Greek government, should it seek a legal route out of its massive debts.

[Zerohedge] 17 June 2015 - Greek Debt Committee Just Declared All Debt To The Troika "Illegal, Illegitimate, And Odious" (Contains translated version of the Committee report)

Debt to the IMF should be considered illegal since its concession breached the IMF’s own statutes, and its conditions breached the Greek Constitution, international customary law, and treaties to which Greece is a party. It is also illegitimate, since conditions included policy prescriptions that infringed human rights obligations. Finally, it is odious since the IMF knew that the imposed measures were undemocratic, ineffective, and would lead to serious violations of socio-economic rights.

Debts to the ECB should be considered illegal since the ECB over-stepped its mandate by imposing the application of macroeconomic adjustment programs (e.g. labour market deregulation) via its participation in the Troïka. Debts to the ECB are also illegitimate and odious, since the principal raison d’etre of the Securities Market Programme (SMP) was to serve the interests of the financial institutions, allowing the major European and Greek private banks to dispose of their Greek bonds.

The EFSF engages in cash-less loans which should be considered illegal because Article 122(2) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) was violated, and further they breach several socio-economic rights and civil liberties. Moreover, the EFSF Framework Agreement 2010 and the Master Financial Assistance Agreement of 2012 contain several abusive clauses revealing clear misconduct on the part of the lender. The EFSF also acts against democratic principles, rendering these particular debts illegitimate and odious.

Note that the purpose of the committee is still to "investigate how much of the debt is “illegal†with a view to writing it off." and these are still preliminary conclusions. The headline states "All Debt" when the question to "how much" is still in the process of being auditored.

Edited July 1, 2015 by gammadust

[oxmox 73]

It is up to discussion who benefited most with those derivative products, if the ones falling for the trap, the ones unloading the financial junk or the ones facilitating the deal.

Highly Likely the Banks of course.....:D

And there is more, Goldman Sachs and involvements with EU politicians...

Goldman Sachs

Involvement in the European sovereign debt crisis

Goldman Sachs is reported to have systematically helped the Greek government mask the true facts concerning its national debt between the years 1998 and 2009. In September 2009, Goldman Sachs, among others, created a special credit default swap (CDS) index to cover the high risk of Greece's national debt.

The interest-rates of Greek national bonds have soared to a very high level, leading the Greek economy very close to bankruptcy in March and May 2010 and again in June 2011.

Lucas Papademos, Greece's former prime minister, ran the Central Bank of Greece at the time of the controversial derivatives deals with Goldman Sachs that enabled Greece to hide the size of its debt.

Some examples.....

Petros Christodoulou, General Manager of the Public Debt Management Agency of Greece is a former employee of Goldman Sachs.

Mario Monti, Italy's former prime minister and finance minister, who headed the new government that took over after Berlusconi's resignation, is an international adviser to Goldman Sachs

So is Otmar Issing, former board member of the Bundesbank and the Executive Board of the European Bank

Mario Draghi, the new head of the European Central Bank, is the former managing director of Goldman Sachs International

António Borges, Head of the European Department of the International Monetary Fund - IMF/IWF in 2010-2011 and responsible for most of enterprise privatizations in Portugal since 2011, is the former Vice Chairman of Goldman Sachs International

Carlos Moedas, a former Goldman Sachs employee, is the current Secretary of State to the Prime Minister of Portugal and Director of ESAME, the agency created to monitor and control the implementation of the structural reforms agreed by the government of Portugal and the troika composed of the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Peter Sutherland, former Attorney General of Ireland is a non-executive director of Goldman Sachs International. These ties between Goldman Sachs and European leaders are an ongoing source of controversy.

Paul Clive Deighton - British politician who served as Commercial Secretary to HM Treasury from January 2013 to May 2015. From 1983 to 2005 he worked for Goldman Sachs as an Investment Banker, last as CCO. Currently Chief Executive of the London Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games.

Peter Denis Sutherland - ex-President of Goldman Sachs, constitutional officer who is the official adviser to the Government of Ireland in matters of law. Played a key role solving the financial crisis in Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#cite_note-Foley-142

Many more examples...

Neues Aus der Anstalt (German Satire Show - 2012)

The Network of Goldman Sachs (maybe there is a video around with english subs)

Edited July 2, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

1. it ceases to be the main legal responsible from the moment that, negleting his economic function, the liabilities the bank is incurring and the leverage they apply on it (way above those with real deposits ~12x vs 15x-300x)* put the whole financial system at risk.

2. the main legal responsible is the entity accessing a priviledged access and most benefiter of the scheme. It is up to discussion who benefited most with those derivative products, if the ones falling for the trap, the ones unloading the financial junk or the ones facilitating the deal.

I disagree. The ones that caused everything were the different Greek Govs after the Colonels dictatorship. Of course that Goldman Sachs took advantage of the situation in between 1998 and 2010, and benefit hugely of it. No doubt. And it's clear that they should take accountant for it.

But do not lie to yourself. Who has been taking the money from the Greek population since 1974? (you could even say way before that, as corruption in Greece has a long history)

The Greek Govs. In fact Greece was mainly ruled by two families! The EU & IMF debt and Goldman Sachs thingy it's just the tip of the iceberg.

It was the Greek Gov that accepted to falsify the economic information in order to get more credits.

All the situation reach to a pathetic situation were corruption is considered in Greece as the "national sport". Heck, according to Transparency International's Global Corruption Barometer 2013, 90% of surveyed households consider political parties to be corrupt or extremely corrupt. They rank them as the most corrupt institution in Greece.

Transparency International on Greece

Government and politics

The public sector suffers from substantial integrity gaps in both law and practice. Some public officials have acted without transparency or effective oversight for decades. As a result, there is a trend to demand and accept bribes. But these actions tend to go unpunished. A 2010 report indicates that only 2% of misbehaved civil servants are subject to disciplinary procedures.

Recent large scale corruption scandals also highlight the risk of conflicts of interest between public office and the private sector. Due to the volume of scandals, citizens’ distrust in public service has proliferated.

Tax evasion

A poor system of tax inspections, aided by an opaque tax code, allows individuals and companies to bribe inspectors and evade taxes. According to a 2011 survey, the cost of bribing tax inspectors to “arrange†tax audit activities is reported to range from €100 to €20,000. And estimates show that €120 billion may have been lost to illicit money from bribes and tax evasion in the first decade of 2000.

Private sector

The business sector’s complex legal and fiscal environment, excessive bureaucracy, and frequent policy changes create an atmosphere conducive to corruption. This in turn prevents effective competition, development and growth. Furthermore, while listed Athens Stock Exchange companies operate with reasonable corporate governance, non-listed firms function in a state of almost complete opacity.

Public procurement

Due to a lack of access to public contracts and procedures, public procurement in Greece remains vulnerable to corruption. Weaknesses are furthered by the country’s inadequate transparency requirements and enforcement. Effective implementation of public contracting rules and processes is also absent.

Remember that it's the Greek Govs the ones that are the main responsible towards the Greek population, the ones that promised to protect it. Not Goldman Sachs that is a private entity which only seeks to make more benefits, which is exactly what they did in Greece.

The Greek rulers are not the victims, they caused and benefited of everything that happened in the country. It was their greed that made them work with Goldman Sachs. The Greek Govs betrayed their population.

To summarize, the fact that there are vultures over a human corpse, doesn't make them responsible for killing the person. Goldman Sachs is the consequence not the cause.

Edited July 2, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Jastreb 69]

I really wonder if G&S own some of the arms industry Greece was buying weapons from and what is their share in banks Greece own money to. That would close the circle really.

As most of the money went to defense budget ( some on the public spending, just to cover our tracks here and have someone to blame ), and they were insanely spending on it, and I wonder why? Corrupt government has a deal with somebody, to do something in order to get something, and in exchange you will sign here, here and here, which will sell our products and probably push the state to debt, but who the hell cares! Were corrupt!

And of course debt goes on the back of the people and the states resources. Who profits? The same somebody.

Yeah I know it a little conspiracy theory, but I like those.