Greece navigating "uncharted territory"

[vilas 477]

for me Greek problem is mix of 2 things:

- NWO banksters creating debts , new form of slavery or colonialism ,

- cheating stats by Greek gov + totally insane Greek "labor bonuses",

probably this second thing is more problematic because when you hire man to job it is NORMAL that he should be on time, do his duties, in Greece there were lots of "bonuses" for being in job on time for example, and in fact salary was twice bigger from lots of crazy bonuses for doing things properly, normally when hired person doesn't do what he is paid for.. than you fire him and don't pay him anymore,

maybe Greek labor motivation system is different than our and we do not understand it but for me it sounds totally weird when i read in press that to salary 1500 Euro someone has bonus 800 Euro for not being late and another 400 Euro bonus for doing what he is obeyed to do and no matter of lack of industry those clerks earn more than Germans having big industry which produces budget income,

also Greek gov was falsifying some reports BUT they were doing it together with banks ,

main problem is that our countries treat banksters like some kind of victim, not thief,

Islandia is only country in Europe which reacted on "crisis" properly,

both bank system and cheating stats/reports caused this situation,

many of those who are meeting on Bilderberg Club meetings are "people" who deserved life sentences, but we cannot pay from our taxes for fact that Greek clerk in governmental office has bonus for being in office at all, cause in every other country it is normal that you must be in job,

this should not be problem of EU taxpayer, this should be ONLY problem of those who cheated , few banks and Greek administration, cause we should not pay for it just we should not pay for immigrants that do not want to work but have 5 kids and demand ban all what we know as our tradition,

if Greek gov was not falsifying stats - Greece would not have problems

Greek people should "take care" themselves about their politicians who made this plus money aren't growing on tree, money come from hard work

other case is how EU funds were spent

cause i imagine that some funds could be corrupted as well cause someone in Brussels for example applied making EU project which doesn't give anything good but it is paid from loans (stupid example:

in Poland from EU found and some "animals rights" promotion, someone made websites about cats for ... 170 000 EU, yes, you read correctly, someone get EU funds to create a website about cats for such money, while usual IT webmaster does such website for 100 EU, not 170 000 EU, the same stupid examples are building senseless football stadion in city that needs hospital and of course it is on EU budget loan, who need f* football stadion when there is no hospital) we call such projects "bridge along the river's bank"

problem is in local politicians, banks and EU politics itself

Edited July 2, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Don't worry, the Greek Gov has so much money that can afford expending a bit more than last year in military stuff.

(Business Insider) Greece's military budget is getting bigger even as the country's economy lurches towards mayhem

Racked by financial woes since 2008, Greece has all but defaulted on its loans after the failure of talks with with the European Union and its various creditors. The country is heading towards a high-stakes referendum next week that could result in the country eventually leaving the Eurozone.

Still, despite Greece's staggering economic problems, the country has consistently maintained one of the highest defense expenditures as a percentage of GDP in all of Europe.

For 2015, NATO projects that Greece will spend 2.4% of its GDP on defense, which is actually a 0.1% increase in spending over 2014. The previous year, the country's debt as percentage of GDP was at 175%, while its economy contracted by 3.3%.

Although both Turkey and Greece are members of NATO and are technically allies, the two states have been competing militarily since the Turkish invasion of Cyprus over four decades ago.

"One could argue that with 1,300 tanks, more than twice the number in the UK, Greece has many more than it needs. But no one forced it to spend so much. It happened because of the threat perception from Turkey and the need to balance Turkey militarily," Greek defense expert Thanos Dokos told the Guardian.

[gammadust 12]

The hypocrisy of the "Greek Military Budget" is flabbergasting:

[The Guardian] 23 June 2014 - US presses Nato members to increase defence spending

[WSJ] 22 June 2015 - Just Five of 28 NATO Members Meet Defense Spending Goal, Report Says

Only Poland this year joined the four other countries, out of 28 total NATO members, that are meeting the alliance’s goal of spending 2% of their gross domestic product on defense. The other four are the U.S., Great Britain, Greece and Estonia.

[The Guardian] 12 April 2012 - German 'hypocrisy' over Greek military spending has critics up in arms

[mistyronin 1181]

The hypocrisy of the "Greek Military Budget" is flabbergasting:

Why would it be hypocrisy?

The fact is that the Greek Gov choose to spend an insane amount of money in military stuff while it's country is practically in bankruptcy.

It's incredibly stupid the position of the Greek Gov.

[gammadust 12]

Yes... i meant:

The hypocrisy of the "Greek Military Budget" argument is flabbergasting

It is hypocrisy since the those Governements were pressured to do so being members of Nato, and the recipients of the budget were to a great part the same countries that now censor those decisions. How's that for hypocrisy?

Also given that the Governments deciding on those budgets are gone, and the current was not able to decide on any Greek State Budget yet, given the state of negotiations preventing so, it is like adding insult to injury bringing that argument on the current discussion.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes... i meant:

It is hypocrisy since the those Governements were pressured to do so being members of Nato, and the recipients of the budget were to a great part the same countries that now censor those decisions. How's that for hypocrisy?

Also given that the Governments deciding on those budgets are gone, and the current was not able to decide on any Greek State Budget yet, given the state of negotiations preventing so, it is like adding insult to injury bringing that argument on the current discussion.

What are you talking about? What do the NATO countries have to do with Greece in this case?

As I have been repeating a few times, the Greek Govs have been betraying the Greek population for decades.

The reason of the huge Greek Military Budget in big part is due to the corruption of its Armed Forces, whose top brass receive huge stakes of the deals.

Of course Germany and the US as well as the rest of the countries of the World want to sell their weapons and even press Greece to buy them.

But the Greek Govs are "theoretically" to defend the Greeks interests, not their own. And while the Greek Govs decided to not comply with most of their agreements, they choose to comply with the NATO one that almost no other member follows? Check your own links...

So unfortunately for you the Greek Military Budget argument is a reality.

[vilas 477]

The hypocrisy of fraulein Merkel and her cohorts is quite astonishing,maybe she should open some history books and read how Spain and Greece helped Germany recover after the war with the dept cancellation.

Otherwise I agree that is 50-50% fault between past Greece political class and EU financial system,taking IMF dirty money with the condition that they impose extreme austerity measures(because this relaunches economy how???:annoy:) was like playing russian roulette with 5 bullets in the barrel.

After the lesson with IMF and Argentina was clear as sky that these fellows main aim is not to help countries,but put them into a permanent slavery.

afaik Greece also deleted demands to pay compensations by Germany after WW2 !

Well investors and banks would loose a LOT of money and we know that those always come first for our governments

especially before our needs

do you know EU directive number 2014/95 if i call name correctly - than bank can take your savings to pay bank debts, yet directive is not signed by half of EU members

Check everyday RT news, it's all about how the EU countries and the US are decadent, shitty, corrupted, in deep crisis and how Russia is the best country in the World.

because in some points it is like this, not in 100% but in 10% it is

ask people who lost all because of banks operations on virtual money

Edited July 3, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

because in some points it is like this, not in 100% but in 10% it is

ask people who lost all because of banks operations on virtual money

Do you know that showing the 10% as the 100% is considered manipulation, right?

That's what RT does.

[vilas 477]

denying something which is wide known and calling 1% is also manipulation

[mistyronin 1181]

denying something which is wide known and calling 1% is also manipulation

You are confusing threads Vilas. Besides you haven't been able to prove that is wrong. In fact you seem to be a bit clueless about that subject. Keep it to it respective thread.

[vilas 477]

because you ignore proofs and answers and facts that do not meet with your vision or beliefs and despite facts you do not change opinion, repeating what Russians do in matters of USSR terror on other nations

Edited July 3, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

because you ignore proofs and answers and facts that do not meet with your vision or beliefs and despite facts you do not change opinion, repeating what Russians do in matters of USSR terror on other nations

So in your opinion to say that the majority of Muslims are not Islamic Extremists is to behave like the USSR terror? :j:

In any case, as I told you please, keep that conversation in the correct thread.

[gammadust 12]

What are you talking about? What do the NATO countries have to do with Greece in this case?

As I have been repeating a few times, the Greek Govs have been betraying the Greek population for decades.

The reason of the huge Greek Military Budget in big part is due to the corruption of its Armed Forces, whose top brass receive huge stakes of the deals.

They have everything to do, according to the german justice:

[The Irish Times] 11 December 2014 - German arms manufacturer fined €37m for Greek bribes

Rheinmetall bribed officials over Greek army defence contract

...but also according to the current Greek Government which seems to dislike that corruption as much as you.

[Keep Talking Greece] 27 February 2015 - Greece to exclude Siemens, Rheinmetall & Eurocopter from public procurements

Speaking to defense news website Onalert.gr, Alternate Defense Minister Kostas Ysichos (SYRIZA) said that these three companies have to be excluded from procurements due to illegal practices, “the proven fraudulent transactions they have done in order to secure public procurements.â€

The defense industry is up to their necks involved in the corruption that upsets you, there were similar cases in portugal too, this time around with submarines.

---

Of course Germany and the US as well as the rest of the countries of the World want to sell their weapons and even press Greece to buy them.

But the Greek Govs are "theoretically" to defend the Greeks interests, not their own. And while the Greek Govs decided to not comply with most of their agreements, they choose to comply with the NATO one that almost no other member follows? Check your own links...

So unfortunately for you the Greek Military Budget argument is a reality.

As if i had claimed it was a fantasy, you have issues with active reading don't you, second language perhaps?

What I said, and reiterate so that you may overcome whatever it is that enables that active reading deficit is:

I don't think the defense expenditure is a very favouring argument for the troika, if it is the population that is the recipient of the austerity.

If anything it only underlines how the Greeks, which are paying the fat share of the austerity, are the victims of the levels of corruption involved.

First because the amounts were subtracted from their state budget depriving them from valuable resources, and secondly because this compounded the reasons forcing the previous governements into further debt.

These are actually arguments towards turning part of the debt into odious illegal and illegitimate, something which ultimately will lead to its writedown. The troika are the last ones to see this happen, hence my circunspection of you bringing this argument. Are you sure you still want to present this argument against the current Greek Governement (because that is what it looks like)?

[vilas 477]

i do not know how it is in other legal system but in ours there is the same responsibility of one who gives bribe and one who takes,

even more bigger of the one who gives bribe,

some corporations behave in "2nd or 3rd world" completely opposite like in "1st world" and people from "1st world" do not understand anger of people from 2nd/3rd world on paying for corruption committed against our will,

but in case of Greece those usual people also had enormous bonuses to salary for things which we normally demand for basic salary,

names of corporations i see above mentioned, also are "good well known" in my country and also here our local producers failed competitions with those 3 corporations,

[mistyronin 1181]

As if i had claimed it was a fantasy, you have issues with active reading don't you, second language perhaps?

In fact I'm afraid that it's you the one that is unable to follow the debate and confuse me with the Troika. In addition that you also confuse the Greek population with the Greek Govs. (Notice that I always use Govs, in plural, meaning all the past Greek Governments).

You claimed that it was hypocrisy that I complain about the Greek Govs spends an in insane amount of money in military equipment while the country has been in virtual bankruptcy for years.

And it's you who is trying to blame the Greek Govs military expenditure on the other countries and companies that pressed them to purchase their gear due to their NATO ties. But that is BS. Because most of NATO members don't reach to the quota, and nothing happens.

They have everything to do, according to the german justice:

If a German firm bribed Greek officials to get contracts in Greece, the main responsibly it's on the corrupted Greek officials who were supposed to not accept them.

In most legal systems, if an authority official accepts bribes, it's considered twice as serious as if it was a private company worker. For one side because it accepts a bribe, and on the other because it betrays it's own office / nation.

You keep forgetting again and again, that are the Greek Govs that promised to protect and do their best for the Greek nation. And they should had been the ones that fought against foreign pressures and external bribes, instead of accepting them.

The first thing Tspiras and Varoufakis should have done when they arrived in office is to cut drastically all non-necessary expenditures, like the military one. But they didn't. It hasn't been until now that they putted on the table.

In any case what the actual gov could hypothetically do doesn't matter much, as it seems that won't last much longer.

Edited July 3, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

those who give bribes are co-reponsible

problems of Greece show what may happen in other countries too, what banksters and corporations and bribes can do ,

second example what coruption can do is Ukraine,

In most legal systems, if an authority official accepts bribes, it's considered twice as serious

i wish to live in such system ;)

problem is if international law would allow them to cut or return corrupted contracts

because the same you say about Polish situation "but your government sold industry"

but what if we found bribe and we want to cut contract, nationalize something back, than what ?

compensations for bribing corporations ?

how can you imagine fixing things done by corruption of corporations worldwide ?

is there any other method than re-nationalize or stop paying for equipment

if corrupted government bought 100 jets, and you paid for 2 jets, you have loan on 98 other jets and you won election and you found previous gov. took bribe, what can you do according to international law?

afaik it is that taxpayer must pay even for corrupted contracts cause there is no legal way to say "i am breaking this contract, i am no longer paying for things, which predecessor bought for bribe"

imagine now returning all bribed contracts - how it would be according to international law, corporations reactions etc. is it possible ?

cause than next after Greece my country should re-nationalize stolen property ,

a lot of problems of our globe are created by dozens of people meeting at Bilderberg Club and few banks on this planet

IMF already said (in press , latest info) that they think about new help to Greece, omg , another money to pump to Greece ?

maybe current behavior of Greek gov is playing hysteria to get more money to waste again on benefits for those who aren't late in job,

Edited July 3, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

First, all of those Gov. officials that took bribes can be prosecuted.

Second, the companies that got the contracts through bribes can be sanctioned, and even expropriated. And of course the deals are deemed invalid.

It's nothing strange, I've seen that both in the US and in Western & Northern Europe.

For what you said, seems that Poland is a World apart.

In any case, and as I have repeated a few times. The main solution for the Greek situation is to clean Greece from corruption and turn its weak economy into something efficient.

Edited July 3, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

in our law there is no difference about bigger responsibility of state officials , moreover "far right" demand such responsibility law since 25 years and still it is the same responsibility here for usual clerk and for minister,

moreover, since 2 days there is new law, that forbids to use by court (even if court wants) proofs collected "illegally" which means wiretyping , it is what "proEU Civic Platform" did, so now there will be problems to even proove corruption in my country cause now since 2 days you cannot wiretype anyone without his permission to use it in court (private wiretyping, not special services court ordered one),

we also have immunity for members of parliament, judges, prosecutors

before WW2 in my country there was death penalty for clerks for corruption but president was "responsible only in face of God" (which means he was untouchable by law)

-------------------

if it is not problem according to international law, than Greece should return those tanks/whatever and demand money back from those corporations and EU should enforce those corporations that gave bribes to return money, and... one of those companies build hi-tech of Russian army afair , second of this corporations is very well know for my uncle who worked in our telephone producing company taken "for very small cost" by this corporation to be turned into warehouse for hire, third of those corporations "win a lot of contests" in my country which local producer failed, but maybe their helicopters were better, we do not know, maybe yes, maybe not, we can guess what made this company to won all contests here

Greece from corruption and turn its weak economy into something efficient.

when some guys who now lead main banking organizations and other guys from Bilderberg Group face justice - than it will be alright in many countries including ex colonies

Edited July 3, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

(Al Jazeera) Eurozone fund officially declares Greece in default

Greece was officially declared in default, injecting even more urgency into a make-or-break weekend referendum on the austerity measures demanded by its creditors that new polls suggested was too close to call.

The eurozone's rescue fund, Greece's largest creditor, said on Friday that it reserved the right to call in 130.9bn euros in debt ahead of schedule after Athens defaulted this week on an International Monetary Fund (IMF) loan.

The European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) statement added, though, that it had decided to not immediately demand repayment of its loans, a step that might have triggered Greece's sudden exit from the eurozone.

The decision was announced two days before Greeks vote in a referendum on whether to accept bailout terms rejected by their leftist government.

European officials have said a "No" vote could lead to the country's exit from the eurozone.

"It breaks the commitment made by Greece to honour its financial obligations to all its creditors and it opens the door to severe consequences for the Greek economy and the Greek people."

Greeks are almost evenly split over this weekend's crucial referendum, with 41.5 percent saying they will vote in favour of accepting the latest bailout proposals and 40.2 percent saying they will vote "No", an opinion poll shows..

[gammadust 12]

I apologise, i'll proceed with quotes, separate what MistyRonin seem to be fond in mixing, and attempt to clarify where i might have not.

In fact I'm afraid that it's you the one that is unable to follow the debate and confuse me with the Troika.

Be afraid all you want, i am pretty sure i am following much of the complexity involved. I do grant you half a point, i was wondering about that confusion but at least put myself in doubt:

The troika are the last ones to see this happen, hence my circunspection of you bringing this argument. Are you sure you still want to present this argument against the current Greek Governement (because that is what it looks like)?

happy to be wrong! :)

---

In addition that you also confuse the Greek population with the Greek Govs. (Notice that I always use Govs, in plural, meaning all the past Greek Governments).

You will find that since first input regarding these corruption issues, i have been very keen in keeping the roles and respective responsibilities identified instead of bundled together.

Honestly, I don't see how adding a plural transforms the subject into its past instances alone either, therefore supposedly excluding the current one. Specially if relying just on context which is hardly around to be seen in your input underlining the relevant differences (ie. Troika austerity measures being - supported enthusiastically / shown serious cepticism - by each governements )

---

You claimed that it was hypocrisy that I complain about the Greek Govs spends an in insane amount of money in military equipment while the country has been in virtual bankruptcy for years.

And it's you who is trying to blame the Greek Govs military expenditure on the other countries and companies that pressed them to purchase their gear due to their NATO ties. But that is BS. Because most of NATO members don't reach to the quota, and nothing happens.

No, i claimed the argument is tainted with hypocrisy instead, exactly because i keep hearing that argument being thrown around in what consists in an attempt to focus only on the recipients of corruption. Which amounts to blantant lies of omission, hiding the others that benefited from the same corruption, given the facts presented, juridical follow up and ultimate condemnation. It has been proven already. Mildly speaking only irresponsible ignorance allows one to omit such public facts if alluding to the corruption issue.

If a German firm bribed Greek officials to get contracts in Greece, the main responsibly it's on the corrupted Greek officials who were supposed to not accept them.

In most legal systems, if an authority official accepts bribes, it's considered twice as serious as if it was a private company worker. For one side because it accepts a bribe, and on the other because it betrays it's own office / nation.

This is not "most legal systems", it is the European, the German and the Greek. The authoritative word on how "serious", is the institutions' and is related to the damage done and it's victims, instead of that BS assumption, see:

Treaty on European Union, on corruption in the private sector

The deliberate action of a person who, in the course of his business activities, directly or through an intermediary, requests or receives an undue advantage of any kind whatsoever, or accepts the promise of such an advantage, for himself or for a third party, for him to perform or refrain from performing an act, in breach of his duties, constitutes passive corruption in the private sector (Article 2).

The deliberate action of whosoever promises, offers or gives, directly or through an intermediary, an undue advantage of any kind whatsoever to a person, for himself or for a third party, in the course of the business activities of that person in order that the person should perform or refrain from performing an act, in breach of his duties, constitutes active corruption in the private sector (Article 3).

Active and passive corruption must be made criminal offences at least where they involve, or could involve, the distortion of competition within the common market or where they result, or might result, in economic damage to others by the improper award or improper execution of a contract.

Each Member State must take the necessary measures to ensure that active and passive corruption, and the acting as an accessory in or instigator of corruption, are punishable by effective, proportionate and dissuasive criminal penalties, including, at least in serious cases, penalties involving deprivation of liberty which can give rise to extradition (Article 4). However, for minor cases, Member States may provide for penalties of a different kind.

my emphasis

This confirms my introducing definition previously ("the corruptionist pays the corrupted to gain access to some privilege at the expense of a third party"), it further defines the threshold of criminality based on two criteria depending on the damage and it's victims: distortion of competition and economic damage to third parties. It also reflects that the penalties are not exclusively attributed via fines.

---

You keep forgetting again and again, that are the Greek Govs that promised to protect and do their best for the Greek nation. And they should had been the ones that fought against foreign pressures and external bribes, instead of accepting them.

Not forgeting anything, much the same as i did on the Goldman Sachs corruption allusion previously, i am interested in finding which entities fulfilled which corruption role (Passive Corruption - "corrupted", Active Corruption - "corruptionist", Third Party(ies) - "victim(s)"), and so my best understanding help me not neglecting anyone, which i think was successful, since i mentioned all of those and did not misrepresent their roles previously. You on the other hand, insist on focusing on the Passive Corruption side of the issue without substantiating much. This should make you notice that i am adding upon instead of merely contradicting the partial truth of your contributions in the discussion.

---

The first thing Tspiras and Varoufakis should have done when they arrived in office is to cut drastically all non-necessary expenditures, like the military one. But they didn't. It hasn't been until now that they putted on the table.

In any case what the actual gov could hypothetically do doesn't matter much, as it seems that won't last much longer.

I invite you to really inform yourself better, there are three accounts for your ignorance:

1. Syriza made public it's proposal quite some time ago and its contents negate your assertion that "non-necessary expenditures" were not envisioned, see:

[Reuters] 24 February 2015 - Greek finance minister's letter to the Eurogroup

In the Eurogroup of 20 February 2015 the Greek government was invited to present to the institutions, by Monday 23rd February 2015, a first comprehensive list of reform measures it is envisaging, to be further specified and agreed by the end of April 2015.

(...)

Public spending – The Greek authorities will:

• Review and control spending in every area of government spending (e.g. education, defense, transport, local government, social benefits)

2. Syriza is executing the previous government's budget (Antonis Samaras - Dec 2014-2015). It had no chance yet to balance, approve, nevermind implement one based on his own policies.

3. Syriza capability to govern on its own policy is hostage to reaching an agreement with the Troika. There is no "Tspiras and Varoufakis" Budget possible until then, hence no budgetary reform policy either.

Extending explicitly to the current government what should or should not have been done by the latter, only reveals how out of depth you are in properly analysing the whole issue.

[mistyronin 1181]

As a good friend of mine says, there's no more blind that who doesn't want to see.

Gammadust ,you don't even seem to understand how simple democratic governments work, their powers and what are their responsibilities. How governments can use decrees and modify even the budgets approved by past govs, specially in critic situations.

I love how you think that the Syriza Gov is a handicapped victim of the evil most powerful troika and outer conspiracies, and forget all the recent history of corruption in Greece. It simply doesn't make any sense.

You are like the sick that only focus on the fever (symptoms), when what causes it is the infection; which is what has to be treated.

You even confuse the private and the public sector. Why would you quote the "Treaty on European Union, on corruption in the private sector" when we are talking about bribery of public officials.

Read your own link:

In the context of the development of an overall corruption-prevention policy as provided for in the Action Plan to combat organised crime of 28 April 1997, the Joint Action sets down some common definitions for the policy of combating corruption in the private sector at Member State level (Article 1):

"person": any employee or other person when directing or working in any capacity for or on behalf of a natural or legal person operating in the private sector;

"legal person": any entity having such status under the applicable national law, except for States or other public bodies acting in the exercise of State authority and for public international organisations;

This conversation is pointless. I can't debate with someone that confuses the most basic points of the subject.

And the best of all, is that probably Syriza won't be ruling much longer.

Edited July 3, 2015 by MistyRonin

[srbknight 925]

As a good friend of mine says, there's no more blind that who doesn't want to see.

Gammadust ,you don't even seem to understand how simple democratic governments work, their powers and what are their responsibilities. How governments can use decrees and modify even the budgets approved by past govs, specially in critic situations.

I love how you think that the Syriza Gov is a handicapped victim of the evil most powerful troika and outer conspiracies, and forget all the recent history of corruption in Greece. It simply doesn't make any sense.

You are like the sick that only focus on the fever (symptoms), when what causes it is the infection; which is what has to be treated.

You even confuse the private and the public sector. Why would you quote the "Treaty on European Union, on corruption in the private sector" when we are talking about bribery of public officials.

Read your own link:

In the context of the development of an overall corruption-prevention policy as provided for in the Action Plan to combat organised crime of 28 April 1997, the Joint Action sets down some common definitions for the policy of combating corruption in the private sector at Member State level (Article 1):

"person": any employee or other person when directing or working in any capacity for or on behalf of a natural or legal person operating in the private sector;

"legal person": any entity having such status under the applicable national law, except for States or other public bodies acting in the exercise of State authority and for public international organisations;

This conversation is pointless. I can't debate with someone that confuses the most basic points of the subject.

And the best of all, is that probably Syriza won't be ruling much longer.

Well european union is not that perfect how she is representing it to the people but it's second side of medal !

[mistyronin 1181]

Well european union is not that perfect how she is representing it to the people but it's second side of medal !

The EU is far away from being perfect, and still needs a lot of work to do to get a proper bank system for the Union. And not only that, the Union has to choose a direction to go, instead of going blind and switching direction every couple years.

But in this particular case, the EU role is little compared to all the stuff the Greek Govs did in the past 50 years. Heck technically Greece shouldn't even be in the Eurozone.

[srbknight 925]

The EU is far away from being perfect, and still needs a lot of work to do to get a proper bank system for the Union. And not only that, the Union has to choose a direction to go, instead of going blind and switching direction every couple years.

But in this particular case, the EU role is little compared to all the stuff the Greek Govs did in the past 50 years. Heck technically Greece shouldn't even be in the Eurozone.

today protests in Athens people are separated with Yes or No

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

tonight !!!!!!!!!! oxi oxi !!

[mistyronin 1181]

today protests in Athens people are separated with Yes or No

Yup, this referendum has been a bit crazy, specially having in mind that could have been done weeks before, but Tsipras waited until the deadline expired.

I'm afraid that the "Yes" will win with a slightly majority, the Tsipras Gov will resign and there will be new elections in Greece, with all the consequences in the EU & foreign economies.

(Al Jazeera) Top Greek court clears referendum on austerity