Greece navigating "uncharted territory"

[mistyronin 1181]

produce more of what ?

The production efficiency means.

That in Spain normal office times are from 8-9 am to 7-8 pm.

While in Finland normal office times are from 8-9 am to 4-5 pm and do the same work as in Spain or more. The trade-off are depressions, bad weather, alcoholism, etc.

Basically imagine two exact fields and two farmers. The Spaniard one takes 8 hours to plant seeds, and the Finnish one takes 6 hours to plant the same seeds. The Finnish are more time-effective, but the Spaniards have more life quality.

[vilas 473]

i rather believe that economists use not 2 farmers comparison with the same seed, but they compare potato to newest hi-tech IT equipment cost per kg,

i live in country which is told to be very not effective by "economical authorities from banks", but when our citizens work in UK they are ... told to be very hard working people by British bosses and Poles say that Brits are lazy comparing to them ,

but according to "world bank analyst experts" we are much less effective,

the same with Greeks, they are told to be lazy and thus causing crisis, i do not know how Greeks work but knowing how they measure my nation i can doubt in such measures, which can be simply "NWO banksters propaganda" (i do not say it is, i say it might be cause i compare their comparisons i know)

being at office for 6 hours or 12 hours - also depends of complicated legal procedures (law complication when you measure office clerk)

would be easier to compare industry but ... does Greece have have machines industry ?

for sure their debt is produced also because banksters created this debt and were not stopped,

EU should had been stopping those who say "we need to give another loan to pay other loan which was supposed to pay previous loan"

so banks are for me also guilty

and for sure if they produce nothing than why they earn 4 times more than average Pole, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanian, Romanian which seemed they earned like Germans or Frenchmen having GDP from industry,

and if they produce nothing would they accept living standards from my country ? i doubt

Greece has 3.5 times less citizens than my country but they have bigger armed forces, more tanks, jets, helicopters and twice more personel,

if in my country "35 000 people buy 1 tank" than in Greece the same tank is "bought" by 9 000 people it seems, which gives almost 4 times bigger money spend on army per capita,

if they do not have industry but their money come from EU banks than... their tank was bough by Germans ? lol

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

i rather believe that economists use not 2 farmers comparison with the same seed, but they compare potato to newest hi-tech IT equipment cost per kg,

I'm afraid you are confusing different subjects. One thing is what is more efficient (which is what I said in my former example) and the other what is more profitable.

The efficiency is what makes people from the North of Europe to see the Southerners as "lazy" (which is not true, they just work different).

For example agriculture is WAY less profitable than hi-tech. In fact the agriculture economy in Europe is completely artificial.

The truth is that it would be way cheaper to import agricultural products from outside the EU, for example from the Third World countries (making them richer at the same time).

But someone decided that agriculture is a geo-strategical resource, hence it has to be protected, that's why the EU has been using insanely amount of money of the tax-payers to pay farmers higher than what they would deserve and also increasing the tax of importing food from the exterior.

As more complex, or more R&D requires something, more profitable is (usually). That's why Western Europe is richer than Eastern Europe.

Then there's the exception of certain resources, like oil or expensive minerals, that are highly profitable even if the extraction is not really efficient (a good example is how Norway passed from an almost third World country to one of the richest in the World because of it's oil).

[vilas 473]

food is necessary to survive in case of war, plague plus control health of it to prevent cancer issues

farming has to be kept in Europe cause already EU gave production of shirt to China and in my country, where we produced lots of shirts, now whole cities emigrated cause only industry there was fabric industry producing shirts, velvet ,

economy of whole EU - if Europe is told to be "unified" is one body, if one country has limb, other country spine, other country knee, other ankle - we cannot decide in left arm to cut right toe

That's why Western Europe is richer than Eastern Europe.

nope, it is due to communists which took bribes for destroying our industry, difference of number of factories before 1989 and number of factories in 1999 is significant here ,

due to corruption it happened (western corporations paid penny to buy our plant, were free from tax, locals had to pay taxes and bankrupted)

it is because of corruption -like Ukraine weakness is because of corruption(bribes to politicians)

a plant in which my uncle was technical director was sold for 10% of value of ground (land) beneath this factory to one German company which was named here in this topic about Greece, before 1989 they produced telecomunication equipment for whole Warsaw Pact,

my friend bankrupted in 2000 , he had grocery shop, he paid more taxes than whole supermarket located near by now he works as construction worker in UK, but he had shop which was profitable before coming of one French and one German supermarket near by which were free from taxes by our government ,

you cannot have competitive price if you pay 19% CIT while someone nearby pays 0% and maybe even returns 22% VAT (i must check how it is about VAT in EU)

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

food is necessary to survive in case of war, plague plus control health of it to prevent cancer issues

Yeah but the question would be to what extend, and how much is needed. It's a really long debate, that it would go even crazier with the TTIP (with the EU agreement with the US, that would allow South American farming products to get into EU).

economy of whole EU - if Europe is told to be "unified" is one body, if one country has limb, other country spine, other country knee, other ankle - we cannot decide in left arm to cut right toe

That's what will probably happen in the future. As we go further in the union, it will be more difficult to separate parts.

- - -

On Greece, you have to add the fact that is a Southern Europe country, hence less efficient. It's also in Eastern Europe, hence also less profitable. And with few economical sources, mainly tourism. That to add complicate everything more, it's so corrupted culturally that the Gov practically doesn't receive much money from the tax-payers.

Which makes it a volatile mixture, that now has exploded. The reality is that Greece should have never joined the Eurozone, as it didn't meet the requirements. But now due to all the huge crisis, the North countries say that they will give them the money to help them, in exchange Greece has to accept the North work culture of efficiency, non-corruption, etc.

But the Greeks don't want to adopt the North standards (that's what they voted last Sunday). But if Greece keeps with the same Culture, they will keep having economical crisis affecting the rest of Europe (and the World, due to the Globalization).

The EU it's like a recently formed Football team, with players from different countries. They need to spend a lot of time together to develop a common discipline and adapt to each other.

[vilas 473]

As we go further in the union, it will be more difficult to separate parts.

but it happened already

so if left hand decided to cut right toe, than right leg should sue and demand paying compensation by left arm for handicapping right leg ;)

as i wrote on 2 examples - my uncle, and my local grocery shop ,

how can you imagine union in which you earn 6 times more than me and i have to accept it because i earn 6 times less cause "friend of yours" (example, do not take it personally) bribed my minister to not pay taxes for 2 decades so i bankrupted i earn now 6 times less ?

addopting similar standards of life would solve issues, but those standards you would have to fund, cause "my shop bankrupted because of your supermarket and my telecommunication company was sold for 1%"

it is like compensation for colonialism - which never happened in our history yet, who knows, maybe in few decades former colonies gonna "sue" colonial states

[mistyronin 1181]

how can you imagine union in which you earn 6 times more than me and i have to accept it because i earn 6 times less cause "friend of yours" (example, do not take it personally) bribed my minister to not pay taxes for 2 decades so i bankrupted ?

As I said, with time the salaries will tend to stabilize and "standardize". Obviously there will be places with better salaries, but not that exaggerated. Just check what happened to Eastern Germany, now its reaching to salaries similar to Western Germany.

BUT there's a lot of things that should change too, to avoid corruption, different fiscal policies. etc.

The EU members have to lose more sovereign power to the Union, in order to make everything work properly. If there was a common policy for corruption. Using the same laws as in the Nordics with proper education, the South and East would also eradicate corruption.

But until then there will be conflicts like in Greece, were the population try to fight the change.

[vilas 473]

it is not possible cause each one will defend his culture - thats why we fought wars in past, we fought for independence, because we wanted to live our lifestyle,

because if someone say "we should addopt Nordic culture" than i can say "why Sweden not addopt Polish culture"

than it smells nazism for me - Hitler wanted bring his culture to other nations,

smells Russian Tsar - they wanted change our Catholic churches to Orthodox churches,

so it will never work

because if someone say about adopting other culture - i see occupation , WW2, enslavement, superiority ideas,

because it is not possible to addopt similar policy - if in your countries benefits allow hate preacher islamist to have 50 000 Pounds benefits , 5 kids, no need to work, while others work for him,

for us it is not acceptable,

financial policies come with "mental" policy too, comparison another - funding from taxes sex change - if we have money limited and those money are first for me needed to old ill person, not to man who want to have breast implant,

housing for natives - is also financial policy - in west immigrant gets house funded, local native has to work hard for it and take loan in bank - for me it is not acceptable, for 91% Poles too (latest TV polls on issue)

common policy even about taxes , social care is not possible, because in such unified body i would say "give me money to get free flat, why you give it to guy who came here yesterday while i cannot have my family because i do not have flat" because for me my family always comes first and i would not accept not having family cause money went elsewhere to people who are competition for me ,

in different countries there are advantages and disadvantages, if rest has to addopt "nordic" attitude - than i read it as superiority ideas similar to "aryan race superiority" from 1939,

however i agree that corruption must be eliminated , but lets face fact - corruption here is caused by "yours" (not personal) banks, "yours" markets, "yours" corporations, so what "nordic" policy you would like to apply when "nordic" banks came here and bribed our politicians,

in corruption there are always 2 sides

one who gives,

one who takes,

there is no corruption when 1 of sides is not present ,

you may have totally not honest politician - but if noone offers bribe - there is no corruption,

thus seems that Greece problem cause also by "nordic" banks , corporations (told before when it was mentioned corruption in Greek army useless spendings)

there is no corruption without "your" banks, "your" corporations,

it was not "eastern" "south" that corrupted "our" governments (or in case Greece it was "their" ? )

so it sounds weird when "those who corrupted now come saying that we must fight with corruption and take their lifestyle " - sounds ridiculous because it was them who came with bag full of money to bribe here

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

it is not possible cause each one will defend his culture - thats why we fought wars in past, we fought for independence, because we wanted to live our lifestyle

In fact it's the opposite. The EU idea is that everyone gives a bit of sovereignty in exchange of avoiding the past wars.

We will all become a bit less independent, and more European. As I said what the EU founders look as a goal, is the U.S.A. Where different cultures, with different languages, different religions, (remember that the U.S.A has no official language) live together. And each state has it's own social policies, etc.

It doesn't have anything to do with the Third Reich BTW, were the ideals of Lebensraum, cultures better than others etc.

there is no corruption without "your" banks, "your" corporations,

it was not "eastern" "south" that corrupted "our" governments (or in case Greece it was "their" ? )

so it sounds weird when "those who corrupted now come saying that we must fight with corruption and take their lifestyle " - sounds ridiculous because it was them who came with bag full of money to bribe here

Here it's where you are copying Putin's or Hitler's playbook. All the bad things come from the outside.

No. The corruption existed in Poland or in Greece way before anyone came. And that's why external corporations could bribe officials, because they accepted the bribe.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

than i will repeat what you miss (maybe because i edited and added this) :

in corruption there are always 2 sides

one who gives,

one who takes,

there is no corruption when 1 of sides is not present ,

you may have totally not honest politician - but if noone offers bribe - there is no corruption,

thus seems that Greece problem cause also by "nordic" banks , corporations (told before when it was mentioned corruption in Greek army useless spendings)

there is no corruption without "your" banks, "your" corporations,

it was not "eastern" "south" that corrupted "our" governments (or in case Greece it was "their" ? )

so it sounds weird when "those who corrupted now come saying that we must fight with corruption and take their lifestyle " - sounds ridiculous because it was them who came with bag full of money to bribe here

situation reminds "freedom" words of EU with Basks and Catalonians in Spain ;) or maybe not proper metaphore

but corruption didn't fall from sky

Here it's where you are copying Putin's or Hitler's playbook. All the bad things come from the outside.

No. The corruption existed in Poland or in Greece way before anyone came. And that's why external corporations could bribe officials, because they accepted the bribe.

sory to say but you seems to ignore when something is not according to your point of view and ideas

absolutely disagree - destroying south/east is similar to abuse of colonies

it was from outside

corrupted politicians would not destroy local countries if they were not offered bribe by foreign banks, corporations

things you say remind "but she walked this street, she had short skirt, i am not guilty of rape, she shouldn't walk there alone, she provoked, it is her guit "

Greece destroyed, Poland destroyed, few other countries destroyed - by "yours" corporations, banks etc.

not by ourselves

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

situation reminds "freedom" words of EU with Basks and Catalonians in Spain ;) or maybe not proper metaphore

but corruption didn't fall from sky

It would be the opposite. The situation Basques and Catalans face in Spain is like if Greece was the one ruling the North of Europe and taking their money to build all kinds of useless stuff in Greece.

(to give you an example Spain has more high-speed train tracks per inhabitant than any other country in the World, it even has high-speed train stations in little villages; or airports without planes, etc.)

[vilas 473]

to give you an example Spain has more high-speed train tracks per inhabitant than any other country in the World, it even has high-speed train stations in little villages; or airports without planes, etc.

if it was built by their companies - it means they corrupted themselves building useless stuff (like i gave exmple of military in Greece but with small execption - their arms come from abroad)

so it is different if corruption is from inside or outside,

because you cannot say about only guilt when corruption is from outside,

you can talk about only guilt of country when corruption is within state realized by local business to local politician to steal budget (local or EU),

but if corruption comes from abroad, abroad company "builds useless station" and it is paid by local politician from local budget than it is partly "yours" guilt too, but not "only their corruption" but also "yours corruption" (all what we call colonialism was similar, that locals worked for free for abroad income, similar to colony, because locals pay taxes to create income abroad) no matter if it is bank system, railway station,useless over-count of tanks for army,

Greek army ordered a lot of useless equipment , they have 20% more tanks than Poland although Poland has 3.5 times more citizens, and afair almost 3 times more territory, because bribes came from few companies abroad, but they paid for it partly from EU money, lol

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

sory to say but you seems to ignore when something is not according to your point of view and ideas

No. The fact of saying that all your problems are caused by external causes, it's one of the principles of authoritarian regimes.

absolutely disagree - destroying south/east is similar to abuse of colonies

it was from outside

corrupted politicians would not destroy local countries if they were not offered bribe by foreign banks, corporations

things you say remind "but she walked this street, she had short skirt, i am not guilty of rape, she shouldn't walk there alone, she provoked, it is her guit "

Greece destroyed, Poland destroyed, few other countries destroyed - by "yours" corporations, banks etc.

not by ourselves

No.

If you go to Germany and a Police officer fines you for driving to fast, you won't try to bribe him, because you know that you'll be prosecuted.

But if you go to Mexico, and a Police officer stops you in the middle of the highway for no reason, and tells you that you have to pay him a bribe, then you will.

Same happened to corporations / companies. To make business in corrupt countries, the corporations / companies have to pay bribes, otherwise they wouldn't have get the contracts. In non-corrupt countries, corporations get contracts with public contests without having to bribe anyone.

That's the problem in Greece, that to make business you have to pay bribes, even if you don't want to.

if it was built by their companies - it means they corrupted themselves building useless stuff (like i gave exmple of military in Greece but with small execption - their arms come from abroad)

They were using mainly money from Catalonia and Basque Country tax-payers, which were the less benefited in most of that infrastructures. Well in fact the only benefited from that infrastructures were the Castilian politicians that received a commission from the companies that build them.

[vilas 473]

No. The fact of saying that all your problems are caused by external causes, it's one of the principles of authoritarian regimes.

it is not authoritarian,

authoritarian regime is when minority dictate majority or minorities do not have any rights

it has nothing to where from problems come,

because in democracies problems can come from abroad

because otherwise you would call ex-colonies as authoritarian cause all their problems were caused by occupation ,

than Poland in 1945 would be authoritarian NOT because commies from USSR dictated but because of Germany destroying our land and USSR creating pupet regime

than Native Indians would be authoritarian cause White man came to occupy their land in XVII century,

etc. etc. etc

Same happened to corporations / companies. To make business in corrupt countries, the corporations / companies have to pay bribes, otherwise they wouldn't have get the contracts. In non-corrupt countries, corporations get contracts with public contests without having to bribe anyone.

if you call not paying taxes as normal competition than i am speechless

noone here come to "make business honest way" but to buy and delete competitive plants, be released from paying taxes,

hat's the problem in Greece, that to make business you have to pay bribes, even if you don't want to.

maybe , i do not know Greece, i only look at Greece knowing what banks and corporations made in my country, so i am not believing in all responsibility of Greece,

indeed police in Mexico may be different,

but western business came to use saying (if we use trafic police) "hey, we would not like speed limit to our cars, release speed limits but only for our cars"

maybe i do not understand Greek problems but when i hear about country which is "bankrupted because of corruption" than i compare it with colony-like treating Eastern Europe by western corporations and banks

They were using mainly money from Catalonia and Basque Country tax-payers, which were the less benefited in most of that infrastructures. Well in fact the only benefited from that infrastructures were the Castilian politicians that received a commission from the companies that build them.

damn authoritarian Basks and Catalonists ;) isn't it , they are authoritarians ? :D according to what you call authoritarian

damn authoritarian Native American Indians ;)

damn authoritarian Ukrainians in eastern part of their country ;)

damn authoritarian gays beaten in Russia by police :D

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

if you call not paying taxes as normal competition than i am speechless

Where have I said that not paying taxes is a normal public contest to get a service? :j:

maybe i do not understand Greek problems but when i hear about country which is "bankrupted because of corruption" than i compare it with colony-like treating Eastern Europe by western corporations and banks

What you are missing is that Greece was bankrupted before it joined the Euro. Hence you can't blame the Eurozone for it. In fact the Greek Govs falsified data to join the Euro.

damn authoritarian Basks and Catalonists ;) isn't it , they are authoritarians ? :D according to what you call authoritarian

You are confusing terms again, to say that ALL or MOST of the problems come from the exterior is what makes a country authoritarian.

Catalans and Basques don't claim that most of their problems come from Spain, only that the fiscal deficit.

[vilas 473]

Hence you can't blame the Eurozone for it. In fact the Greek Govs falsified data to join the Euro.

but those banks were giving money to pay loans to pay loans to pay loans for loans for loans were paying them 16 years so far,

but those enormous number of tanks was ordered in 2011 (from USA ) another part of tanks were ordered in 2007 (from Germany),

90 Eurofighter jets , sumbarines from France ,

so banks really had no idea about it ? bank analitics groups didn't know about Greek industry and economy ?

i understand they falsified reports in Greece, but really banks had no idea about level of corruption, debt, fictional money ?

why noone in EU was not harsh for them till Greeks said "no" ?

why they were offered "help to pay previous help"

if i hire person to repaint my house, this person took money and he didn't painted wall yet, but he says he need more money cause after first room he gonna paint second room, than i wait til he paint first and not give him for "another rooms to be painted" and banks normally do similar unless banks do not want to create someone bankrupcy to buy for penny all his stuff ?

are teams working in banks analysis department is made of naive ignorants?

situation of Greece is known for several years, by those years they were receiving money, now when they said "we won't pay anyone" there is problem ? why noone said in past "you will not get even 1 cent "

[mistyronin 1181]

are teams working in banks analysis department is made of naive ignorants?

You have to think that the main debt of Greece is not with the banks, but with the EU population.

And yeah, seems that a lot of EU officials were a bit naive.

The problem seems to be that most of them, "the men in black" (EU inspectors), were from the North hence they thought that countries like Greece or Spain would act like the Northern countries. But they didn't.

Greece falsified the data to join the EU. And Spain also falsified the data to get certain credits.

As commented before, to solve that situations the EU has to regulate commonly certain stuff; and the countries should give some powers to the EU.

[Pyronick 21]

It would be the opposite. The situation Basques and Catalans face in Spain is like if Greece was the one ruling the North of Europe and taking their money to build all kinds of useless stuff in Greece.

(to give you an example Spain has more high-speed train tracks per inhabitant than any other country in the World, it even has high-speed train stations in little villages; or airports without planes, etc.)

I guess that (corruption) is a problem every country has, albeit in less obvious ways.

There are populist sentiments here in the Netherlands (and I know they can be found anywhere else), where people claim that cultural differences between southern and northern countries are to blame. But that is only a small piece of the pie.

If you ask me, it is a matter of public administration. I know for a fact that Dutch and Belgian people value transparency and accountability of not only public spenditure but also to regulation of it. There are strict laws in the Netherlands that bind everybody who is paid by public (tax) money to a maximum salary that is no more than 130% of the salary of a minister. With the notable exception of the King, which for some reason is largely accepted.

Complementary to the regulation of public spenditure is the law on the openness and transparency of public administration and governance of 1980 (Belgium in 1993). When a civilian requests information on a certain decision or specification or communication between public bodies, any level of government must respond within 4 weeks and must forward you to a department that does have information. Public disclosure is the legal basis for all public bodies. If they cannot provide information they must explain why they cannot find anything. If they concern privacy-sensitive information or state secrets, a judge will decide if that information will be disclosed or not.

Since then, most EU member states followed suit, finally implemented EU-wide by the narrow/limited Regulation (EC) No 1049/2001.

I know for a fact that Greece has only started to implement this principle since 2011. The reason why this was never implemented is because the Copenhagen criteria of acceding EU member states did not yet exist.

In fact it's the opposite. The EU idea is that everyone gives a bit of sovereignty in exchange of avoiding the past wars.

I think that the underlying problem is that the EU was not conceived out of a revolution. It was more or less "imposed" (might be the wrong word) by the United States. Without economic integration, European nation states would receive less or no Marshall aid. Something along the lines of the Benelux Union (which still exists today; within the European Union) needed to be formed on a bigger and more economic level.

The EU as we know it today is a union of national governments and an institutionalized treaties organisation, with limited checks and balances by the European Parliament. It is not yet a union of civilizations.

The delegation of powers to Brussels is in a way in reverse order of "how it should be". A proper federal state would only delegate sovereignty to a higher power on the areas of foreign policy, defense, energy and security. But those areas are still governed at national level. This is caused by an unfinished single market and on-going backdoor protectionism. Instead of leaving internal matters to national governments, these are regulated by Brussels whereas federal level matters are regulated by national governments.

Unfortunately, also the limitation of EU foreign and defense policy was imposed by the United States under US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and her 3D approach after the 1998 Franco-British Summit of Saint Malo. Apparently, the US felt that the existence of NATO was threatened by a possible EU foreign and defense policy.

If anything, the EU should reform drastically. A lot of good proposals were made, such as an EU tax.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Pyronick

[mistyronin 1181]

I guess that (corruption) is a problem every country has, albeit in less obvious ways.

I agree. An Economist that I love use to say that "rogues/thieves" are distributed uniformly around the Globe. The only difference is how each culture and government deals with them.

For example I remember in Spain how avoiding taxes is seen as a good "skill", and how some of their cultural heroes are thieves or rogues (like the "Lazarillo de Tormes").

There are populist sentiments here in the Netherlands (and I know they can be found anywhere else), where people claim that cultural differences between southern and northern countries are to blame. But that is only a small piece of the pie.

That's true in every part of the EU I've been (both South and North). It's something I hope we EU citizens can solve, before it turns into a "Civil War" like it happened in the U.S.A. Where the North fought the South precisely due to cultural and economical differences.

The delegation of powers to Brussels is in a way in reverse order of "how it should be". A proper federal state would only delegate sovereignty to a higher power on the areas of foreign policy, defense, energy and security. But those areas are still governed at national level. This is caused by an unfinished single market and on-going backdoor protectionism. Instead of leaving internal matters to national governments, these are regulated by Brussels whereas federal level matters are regulated by national governments

Unfortunately, also the limitation of EU foreign and defense policy was imposed by the United States under US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and her 3D approach after the 1998 Franco-British Summit of Saint Malo. Apparently, the US felt that the existence of NATO was threatened by a possible EU foreign and defense policy.

If anything, the EU should reform drastically. A lot of good proposals were made, such as an EU tax.

I agree completely. Tho I like to be hopeful and think that this is just the beginning, and that the EU will evolve to a proper efficient system.

- - -

(Vice News) Some Nostalgic Greeks Want to Quit the Euro and Bring Back Their Old Currency

In Greece, there is a sense that a battle has been won, but the war is far from over. As the bailout referendum results began to filter in on Sunday evening, showing that the country voted a resounding "No," Syntagma Square in Athens swelled with thousands of Greeks embracing, dancing, and singing patriotic songs. After the jubilation faded, recent days have seen a return to uncertainty, confusion, and the ever-present lines at ATMs.

On Tuesday morning, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras arrived in Brussels, flanked by his team of negotiators, including the new, Oxford-educated Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos, who took over after the resignation of renegade economist Yanis Varoufakis. Speculation has it that Tsipras wants Greece's gargantuan 323 billion euro debt slashed by up to 30 percent, with a payback period stretching over 20 years.

Around the streets of Athens, there is a growing sense of nostalgia for the drachma, Greece's pre-euro currency.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MistyRonin
orthography and grammar

[vilas 473]

and the countries should give some powers to the EU.

i prefer rather "nordics" naivity level to be lower ,

not "east , south" give some powers, but "north, west" to be less naive (but nativity comes from political correctness, leftist thinking that everyone around is good honest, or even just victim of predictions)

giving sovereignty because someone is naive is comparable to "this guy says about Jihad please take him to your house and do not argue that you are apostate, be tolerant" ,

than someone gets beaten because other person "in rule" was naive,

it is not others that should limit their sovereignty, but you should limit nativity, in case of economy - check other reports than governmental ones ;)

even you counter-posted some my words with official stats from my government (in past)

the same mistake was with Greece - too much believe in official report, too low level of self-check,

but others cannot pay for somebody's naivety (example: i am responsible, my woman is responsible, why we should pay tax to fund alimony to slut who f* with lad which she met at disco and get pregnant and now has no money to live?)

naivety is part of whole western political correctness ideology,

from banks, economy by benefits system (tax money) to issues with minorities (do not want call exact cases when country X o r Y was criticized for preventing one minority from stealing locals , famous EU intervention about Slovakian wall in one town)

for me naivety is not justifying others to resign from sovereignty because "I had told you so" (if i translate phrase correctly)

- so now you get my idea what i believe,

we know "you are naive also in other issues" and thus we afraid to pay price for your "pink glasses" (optimism) thus sovereignty is important to avoid one country pay for other country mistakes,

if "men in black" were naive - were they "fired from job" ?

because really it is for me hard to believe that bank analysts in biggest banks are that naive, and that only Greece created debt,

but no matter who caused what - we should not pay for it from our pockets,

if Poles live for 600 Euro - than i do not see reasons to others to live for it if they have no industry at all,

and when you say about EU citizens money - you say about European Central Bank , am i right ?

or not ?

so this bank full of "specialists" do not know what happens in Greece for over decade ?

were they naive or they made it with purpose ?

i am suspicious cause i have some law enforcement experience in my previous job,

some people who regulated their machine to cheat were saying "i had no idea what this button is for" but they were making it on purpose to cheat client (i worked in market surveillance for while, for me "everyone was suspected" when i did my job)

we know this naivety from your "notified bodies" too which allow CE marking on some machines which here were not meeting requirements but our producer "declared" that he fulfills ISO IEC EN-standards, i do not want to go too deep because some thing are confidential ;) but i know this naivety and later we dealt with machines which were wrong but other notified body allowed certification, so our producers were saying "we prefer certify it abroad cause it is faster", do not want to go too deep in market surveillance,

but Greece is best example we should protect sovereignty but also be suspicious and double check any report, any financial stats, any governmental stats (if you would quote my country official stats about average salary , you would not knew how it is counted, while it is counted ONLY from companies who hire > 9 people , which means all small shops are not included, all who pay other kind of tax than PIT are not included , so people who are artists self-companies, 1 person companies, are not included, while they can earn least , but official stats about average salary in my country is counted such way)

it is just example to show that naivety is wrong, there must be double-check, if gov. says A, than what opposition says, is it A or B or C?

you are not bank analyst, but bank analysts must do that, otherwise they should be fired from jobs,

now question - who will get sentenced for Greece ?

how much banksters faced prison for "crisis" in 2008/2009 ?

too few ,

maybe it was not naivety but some "bad guys conspiracy" to make Greece fall and buy it cheap ? if it wasn't than at least now analysts in bank.. what am i talking, there was 2008 crisis 7 years ago which didn't changed anything except that some poor people lost their homes and some rich people get richer

so probably Greece will not change anything, and in 3 moths hungry Greeks will put down this government, pro-EU party will win, say "we gonna pay", they will get new credits, which they will spend on benefits, new tanks

giving any privileges to naive (giving power) is like giving gun to child

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Vilas you are on your right to believe that is all a conspiracy against Greece. But consider these facts:

- The main creditor is the EU population (with more than 50% of the credit) not the banks (where only 6% of the credit resides).

- For the North of the EU, the best would have been that Greece was rich and had an efficient system that contributes a lot to the EU, instead of being a black hole for their tax-payers money.

- If Greece had been really rich and efficient, countries like Germany could have sold it a lot more military stuff and get better benefits.

- Greece has been in almost constant bankruptcy since 1850, hence the EU can't be the issue (unless you unveil some kind of Illuminati conspiracy).

Tho I will give you that the EU "men in black" were too naive, and that as Pyronick said, the EU needs drastic reforms to prevent that kind of crisis.

As I said the EU is relatively young (for a supra-country-entity), countries have to know each other better to work as a team.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

please tell me how EU population is creditor ?

me ? do i give anything to Greek gov ? no, i haven't

who signed it ?

guys in European Bank

or me ?

i do not remember signing it

who is EU population ?

it was some guys in EU authorities, some guys in EU bank , cause it is not me that signed or sent money to Greece for Leopard 2A6 and 50% bonus for not being late at job,

it was guys who sit in EU commision , EU bank

we pay for it indeed, but it was not we who decided, decided guys who probably are meeting every year at Bilderberg Club meetings

Greece has been in almost constant bankruptcy since 1850

and naive poor analysts took them to EU, €

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

please tell me how EU population is creditor ?

me ? do i give anything to Greek gov ? no, i haven't

Where do you think the insane amount of millions the EU sent to Greece came from? (hint: no, it was not Santa).

Of all the money you pay in taxes, part of it goes to the EU. And then the EU rulers (Commission, Council and Parliament; that you elected directly or indirectly) distributes it according to certain variables.

So yeah, the money the Greeks received was partly yours.

And how did you decide it? Well Polish voted to join the EU, and haven't voted to exit it.

and naive poor analysts took them to EU, €

Indeed.

[vilas 473]

Greece has been in almost constant bankruptcy since 1850

and of course it was hidden secret for EU commision, parliament, council ? it was uknown for those who signed documents about next next next loans to pay previous loans given to pay loans ?

when i said bank - i also had in mind EU central bank -it's management

and what we Europeans do about fact that 2 times in this decade we have "crisis" ?

i know it was not Santa, it were guys who meet at Bilderberg Club meetings and EU stay calm and so far only Iceland not paid for it and so far only Orban taxed corporations and all call him purest evil in "naive" countries,

will we see heads of EU financial "elites" in handcuffs ?

in case of EU referendum indeed only 23% voted against but we believed ... i do not want to back to old discussion

[Pyronick 21]

please tell me how EU population is creditor ?

me ? do i give anything to Greek gov ? no, i haven't

who signed it ?

guys in European Bank

or me ?

i do not remember signing it

No, the signing for transferring credit in your case would be: Mateusz Szczurek and Jacek Rostowski.

In mine that would be: Jeroen Dijsselbloem and Jan-Kees de Jager

Like I said, the EU is a union of national governments not civilizations. It is our national ministers that decide who or what to support. Sometimes with a qualified majority vote, sometimes with full unanimity.

and of course it was hidden secret for EU commision, parliament, council ? it was uknown for those who signed documents about next next next loans to pay previous loans given to pay loans ?

Well, there you exposed the Greek euro problem. The Greek government used a credit swap mechanism to turn their existing debt in an interest. An interest looks less appalling than an existing debt would.

In short, the Greek government used a mechanism to falsify information. The information concealed a huge debt that was not known before. When Greece joined the EU in the early eighties they had a little trouble integrating in the Eurostat system. The Greek government barely kept statistics on their finance!

Edited July 8, 2015 by Pyronick