The sniper saga

[DracoPaladore 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 10 2002,20:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Oct. 10 2002,11:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Highly doubtful, and ridiculous.<span id='postcolor'>

Whatever, doubtful I understand... ridiculous is your trust of authorities!<span id='postcolor'>

Paranoid, you are. Why would the police do this "just to make a good case"? What you say is ridiculous.

[DracoPaladore 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 10 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- maybe some (ex) sarge who tried but didn't make it into the SF. (wonder why )<span id='postcolor'>

IF he was military trained, there would be no survivors.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Oct. 10 2002,23:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IF he was military trained, there would be no survivors.<span id='postcolor'>

Not necessarily. Military snipers are generally trained to injure critically, not kill, in order to place maximum strain on the enemy's medical resources. Also, the wounded soldier's unit would be slowed down in helping him.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Oct. 10 2002,14:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Oct. 10 2002,23:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IF he was military trained, there would be no survivors.<span id='postcolor'>

Not necessarily. Military snipers are generally trained to injure critically, not kill, in order to place maximum strain on the enemy's medical resources. Also, the wounded soldier's unit would be slowed down in helping him.<span id='postcolor'>

That is complete nonsense.

At the distances that military snipers operate, they shoot for center of mass in order to maximize the chance of hitting their target. They don't have the luxury to selective shoot people in the thigh, lower arm, or something similar.

In a law-enforcement scenario where distances are considerably shorter (25 to 100 yards), headshots and other surgical shot placement become a possibility, but that is a completely different type of engagement with entirely different parameters.

[DracoPaladore 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Oct. 10 2002,23:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Oct. 10 2002,23:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IF he was military trained, there would be no survivors.<span id='postcolor'>

Not necessarily. Military snipers are generally trained to injure critically, not kill, in order to place maximum strain on the enemy's medical resources. Also, the wounded soldier's unit would be slowed down in helping him.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, we arnt dealing with a squad of enemy soldiers, are we?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DracoPaladore @ Oct. 10 2002,23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 10 2002,20:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Oct. 10 2002,11:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Highly doubtful, and ridiculous.<span id='postcolor'>

Whatever, doubtful I understand... ridiculous is your trust of authorities!<span id='postcolor'>

Paranoid, you are. Why would the police do this "just to make a good case"? What you say is ridiculous.<span id='postcolor'>

Everyone stop making personal insults now, or I will have to slap your wrists with a 48 h pr

[bn880 5]

Well, no personal insults is a good idea...

The reason for planting evidence may be: to make the man appear un-human, un-american, completely insane, out of this world, with no motive other than insanity.

I already talked about this in the last thread: "don't make the public think about anything important"

I have no respect for anyone who covers up the motives of killers or terrorists. All motives for violence agains the public should be made public. This = publishing messages from terrorists publically, such as a Tarot card. Don't you at least want to know the truth behind violence aimed at you for yourself?

About personal insults in topics: when you start making personal insults, the topic at hand is not being discussed... progress is lost, but can be gained back. (I am also guilty of participating in personal insults when provoked)

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 11 2002,01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reason for planting evidence may be: to make the man appear un-human, un-american, completely insane, out of this world, with no motive other than insanity.<span id='postcolor'>

Y'know, his actions make this case very convincingly. I don't think the police need to worry about fabricating evidence so that he'll be seen as crazy.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 11 2002,01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have no respect for anyone who covers up the motives of killers or terrorists.  All motives for violence agains the public should be made public.  This = publishing messages from terrorists publically, such as a Tarot card.  Don't you at least want to know the truth behind violence aimed at you for yourself?<span id='postcolor'>

Why? Who cares about what this loser thinks, or what justification he gives? Does he really deserve to have his pathetic reasons made public? The ONLY value his words have is as clues toward his arrest, or (hopefully) his imminent death.

Semper Fi

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Oct. 10 2002,21:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Y'know, his actions make this case very convincingly. I don't think the police need to worry about fabricating evidence so that he'll be seen as crazy.

Why? Who cares about what this loser thinks, or what justification he gives? Does he really deserve to have his pathetic reasons made public? The ONLY value his words have is as clues toward his arrest, or (hopefully) his imminent death.

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

I know his actions are convincing hopefully you are right that the evidence is not planted, very strange how we found out about it.

Well, I care exactly what he thinks and why. Without understanding how will you prevent people from killing like that in the future? Same goes for WTC.

You want the man to die? Would be better to understand him than just kill him. The female mass murderer that was executed this week, we found out she hated humans all her life, that's why she did it(externally, we don't really understand why she was like that other than maybe abusive childhood).

And it's not about what he deserves, it's about everyone else.

[ralphwiggum 6]

well, it was matter of time before this article is on.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

The most disturbing thing about the link that Ralph Wiggum posted is that much of what it says is true. Many people do hold snipers in owe, there ability to kill from so far away. Play online FPS and see how many people liked to snipe. I have played on some servers for SOF2 where more than half the people were sniping. We sit back in awe at the talent of a sniper, their uncanny accuracy.

On a side note, SF snipers tend to be given the code-name 'god'. As crazy as it sounds, maybe what SamSamson siad is true, he wants to be Special Forces(Just a crazy Idea that came into my head)

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 11 2002,04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You want the man to die?  Would be better to understand him than just kill him.  The female mass murderer that was executed this week, we found out she hated humans all her life, that's why she did it(externally, we don't really understand why she was like that other than maybe abusive childhood).<span id='postcolor'>

What's to understand? "Don't abuse your kids?" Well, no kidding. So we found out that she hated people -- hardly an unexpected revelation. I'd be willing to bet that this guy doesn't like people, either. To be frank, the only "understanding" this clown could provide that would interest me would come from his autopsy results.

I should also clarify that I don't believe he's "insane" in the medical sense. I think he just likes to kill people because it makes him feel adequate for a little while.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 11 2002,04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And it's not about what he deserves, it's about everyone else.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly. As for publishing the note, "I am God" really doesn't explain his actions, or enable the public to defend themselves in any way. There is a difference between establishing a motive and giving away details of the case that should be known only to the police.

Semper Fi

[IceFire 0]

I found that article VERY disturbing.

Why in the world would a civilian need to know how to snipe??

Civilians should not be taught unless they are prior police/military.

There is just no reason for civilians to know how to pick off people at 1000 yards away.

Like Col. Kurts said, it's true. Everyone loves the sniper. Everyone wants to be Carlos Hathcock.

So you have nuts who think that they are real cowboy hotshots trying to make a name for themselves. Much like our psychopathic friend who is busy now in the Maryland/DC area.

[IceFire 0]

I do not beleive the problems lies in guns.

The problem lies in obsessed people who idolize soldiers in the military.

You have millions of people who want to be like Navy SEALs or Marine Snipers.

The military has been glorified. This is why I think that military information and knowledge should not be available to the public. Not stuff on Spec Ops, or anything.

Because you will always have the obsessed people who want to try to be cool and emulate them.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Oct. 11 2002,05:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I found that article VERY disturbing.<span id='postcolor'>

Much of that article should be taken with a grain of salt.

Example #1:

-- "The careful application of terror is another form of communication."

-- "The only thing I feel when I kill is the recoil from my rifle."

-- "Don't try to run. You'll only die tired."

Yes, these are all very chilling...

disturbing...

terrifying...

t-shirts. Holy Jeebus, this silly stuff is in every military surplus store I've ever seen (where "boots" go to buy their combat knives and other non-essential but "cool" gear <rollseyes>).

Example #2:

"Tarley says shooters who become obsessed with sniping are attracted to the sport's demands."

Err, when the hell did sniping become a sport? Makes me wonder if the writer has confused sniping with hobbyists who enjoy harmless precision shooting.

Semper Fi

[Sweeper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Oct. 11 2002,05:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do not beleive the problems lies in guns.

The problem lies in obsessed people who idolize soldiers in the military.

You have millions of people who want to be like Navy SEALs or Marine Snipers.

The military has been glorified.  This is why I think that military information and knowledge should not be available to the public.  Not stuff on Spec Ops, or anything.  

Because you will always have the obsessed people who want to try to be cool and emulate them.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with the guns thing.

In Oslo and Norway they are making gun laws even more strict and for sport shooters like me who only blows away beer cans we loose our hobby and the fun.

But thoose who use the gun the other way shows up with LAW's and M-249 as well as SPAS-12's theese guns was used in the gang war beetween Hell Angels and Bandidos.

And then we have to pay and they go on the street and buy theese guns and uses them....

When it comes to the sniper I say he must be hunted down...

Treat him the army way, send a helo after him or mortar him or use professional snipers to take him down, This cannot be allowed to continiue.

He moves away after the kill and even if the cops do get a barricaded sniper he can pick them off pending on rifle and his skill but I think he can.

[iNeo 0]

9 hit and 7 killed now.

[PitViper 0]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 10 2002,227)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know his actions are convincing     hopefully you are right that the evidence is not planted, very strange how we found out about it.

Well, I care exactly what he thinks and why.  Without understanding how will you prevent people from killing like that in the future?  Same goes for WTC.

You want the man to die?  Would be better to understand him than just kill him.<span id='postcolor'>

Do you want to understand Jeffrey Daumer?  How about Jack the Ripper?  please.  you don't even want to get into these peoples' heads. the moment you do, you give creedence to their radical reasons for multiple murders.

[iNeo 0]

I agree with bn880... "It takes a thief to stop a thief", right?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Oct. 11 2002,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 10 2002,22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know his actions are convincing   <!--emo&   hopefully you are right that the evidence is not planted, very strange how we found out about it.

Well, I care exactly what he thinks and why.  Without understanding how will you prevent people from killing like that in the future?  Same goes for WTC.

You want the man to die?  Would be better to understand him than just kill him.<span id='postcolor'>

Do you want to understand Jeffrey Daumer?  How about Jack the Ripper?  please.  you don't even want to get into these peoples' heads. the moment you do, you give creedence to their radical reasons for multiple murders.<span id='postcolor'>

The moment you understand them, is the moment you can prevent more. You don't stop serial murders by forensic evidence and luck alone. That is why they usually go unnoticed and uncaught for so long, they are too smart...usually borderline geniues.

You don't give "creedence" to their motives. They usually have no motive other than the drive to kill to feed their superiority complexes (which generally mask strong inferiority complexes). What you DO do by becoming more acquainted with their mind is better understand them, what in their head is driving them and how to stop them. Unfortunately, generally speking, the people that have that terrible job become borderline themselves.

And I don't agree that for the sake of "public knowledge" any nut that commits a murder or attempted murder should have their manifesto published. That starts a dangerous precedent where any nut job can have his ramblings desimated to the public by killing some innocent bystander. Public knowledge should not be given at the sacrifice of public safety.

[Sam Samson 0]

in my eyes he's a wannabe.

real life certified snipers are mentally stable, otherwise they'd never get the job. and it is almost never executed anyway, since federal law puts up huge barriers against it.

I personally would dislike the job. for some reason I don't see any bravery in it. it's almost sort of cowardly. (maybe I'm too oldfashioned.)

about the supposed silence of his gun:

he fires from a car. when you shoot from inside a car the space works like a sound suppressor. the ordinarily loud crack sounds like a much less distinct and less locatable hollow boom. (I read...)

what does the fact that he used a tarot card point to? he's playing fate? underlining his claim to be God?

[DarkLight 0]

If you ask me the article that was posted is total bs, what the hell is that? The writer is just bitching on snipers/sniping, snipers are mindless killers who don't care about anything and people who have a rifle and practise sharpshooting suddenly look like dangerous ppl. Sheesh, come on, talk about overreacting!

Anyway, i haven't seen much about sniping being very popular in games, perhaps in cs, but that's just because the sniper is the strongest weapon. There isn't a lot of "sniping", it's more like running around and shooting. Some games have a lot of sniping, especially shooters like cs where sniping isn't much different from assaulting. Only difference is that you have a semi auto gun with extremely deadly bullets instead of full auto with weaker bullets.

Games like delta force 2 (mentioned in the sniper sim thread) have a lot less snipers than most other games. Just because sniping isn't very easy there, bullet drop, bullet travels rather slow etc make it harder than other games. Also there are many sniper hunters who like to knife you while you're sniping...

I like sniping, i won't buy a game very fast if it isn't cool to snipe in the multiplayer....

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 10 2002,17:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in my eyes he's a wannabe.<span id='postcolor'>

Pretty solid aim for a wannebe

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (iNeo @ Oct. 11 2002,01:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">9 hit and 7 killed now.<span id='postcolor'>

Update: possibly 10 hit and 7 killed. Another person was shot and seriously wounded at a gas station this morning just a few miles from one of the previous shootings.

[Mister Frag 0]

The news now reports that the victim of today's shooting has died.