Challenges of Jungle/Marine Warfare in Tanoa

[zukov 490]

One of the best fire fights I have EVER had in arma was in dence jungle. Playing with UNSUNG back in a2, ran into a patrol and got ambushed, was nuts.

the lights in A2 are pretty atrocious.....;)

[froggyluv 2136]

^Ya know I really miss the 'crawling wounded' of Arma2 -we'll never be able to properly recreate Charlie Sheen fragging Sgt. Barnes while he's crawling away without it.

I believe the thing to tune is not spotting distance, but spotting time. Ai should still spot you at 300m in the jungle (when in LOS). Just it should take alot longer. Like 5 seconds on airport vs 5 minutes in jungle. Line of sight should not mean instant spot (pretty much now). Rather line of sight starts a countdown. When complete the ai spots you. Length of countdown depends on combo of target's terrain, uniform, stance, movement, distance. Ai lose line of sight, countdown counts up until its regained.

I might add rank or special class to that formula ie. Spotter/Spet Natz ie.. but that formula looks like an extremely good idea and I hope the Devs take note. Rank might be a bit gamey as I doubt 80yo Generals spot better than 20 yo Private so I'd say within reason. It does feel as if LOS = shoot in .008milliseconds right now and another place I'd like to see modify is when the shooter is indoors, especially with glass windows. Shadows would also be great modifier but thats never gonna happen.

Goblin thats also a really good idea and sounds totally doable -another reason why this type of discussion is need 9 months out before release - it's gotta be done at the ground floor before it's too late, not an afterthought.

Edited June 18, 2015 by froggyluv

[cozza 24]

BIS dont need to add landing zones. Just add theses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-82

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast

Instant landing zones in the jungle :p

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Alright, well BIS have now at least Acknowledged my tickets regarding infantry Logistics, and Advanced Man Class tech (which theey may have probably already been aware of long time ago anyway... maybe). So who knows. Maybe they will think of some new feature for the Expansion that we could all benefit majorly from.

[chortles 263]

The only things that could ruin this guerilla paradise

Gameplay already vindicated.

I might add rank or special class to that formula ie. Spotter/Spet Natz ie.. but that formula looks like an extremely good idea and I hope the Devs take note. Rank might be a bit gamey as I doubt 80yo Generals spot better than 20 yo Private so I'd say within reason.

It's been declared that Rank has nothing to do with character abilities, only the line of succession in a group in the event of the group leader going down. As for the remainder, I'd keep an eye on the official AI threads -- they're popping smoke on dev branch!!

[vegeta897 13]

Well you must be in another world, because Camo does work, in correct situations. One of he reasons I use the Greenback uniform the most, I can go prone in green patches of grass, and I've had people literally walk on-top of me over my body, as if I didn't even exist.

He's talking about what the AI see, not other players.

[chrisb 196]

Stock AI will struggle to get a coherent plan of attack together. But it can be done with some AI mods. Its just that dense jungle/forest doesn't give great skirmishes or firefights. It tends to be firing at nothing, but a general direction. Flanking could be interesting, stopping the AI in position would be good, i.e. stopping them moving at firing distance from the enemy (you or I). Then flanking could be quite exciting. But really it will be firing in general directions and hoping for the best with stock AI. However, modded AI can/will make this environment, for those that like it, very interesting.

I have played many jungle terrains in A2, some have been good, others bad. But its going to be interesting to see how players get along with it in general. There are plenty of towns etc. So hopefully it will be balanced enough for all players to enjoy.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Stock AI will struggle to get a coherent plan of attack together. But it can be done with some AI mods. Its just that dense jungle/forest doesn't give great skirmishes or firefights. It tends to be firing at nothing, but a general direction. Flanking could be interesting, stopping the AI in position would be good, i.e. stopping them moving at firing distance from the enemy (you or I). Then flanking could be quite exciting. But really it will be firing in general directions and hoping for the best with stock AI. However, modded AI can/will make this environment, for those that like it, very interesting.

I have played many jungle terrains in A2, some have been good, others bad. But its going to be interesting to see how players get along with it in general. There are plenty of towns etc. So hopefully it will be balanced enough for all players to enjoy.

Good point. However Altis, Stratis, and most likely Tanoa, are based on real locations. You can't really not like a map, but rather, not like the place that you are being deployed in. Just think of it as traveling to new places, and weather someone likes it or not, well, just remember what the Dev's said. Green Hell. Lol

[chortles 263]

On the question of terrain and AI, I'm wondering if the engine can be reworked so that AI can perceive their current position as being of a certain terrain type (i.e. grasslands, woods, jungle, beach) and their behavior/sight/hearing be adjusted according to terrain type-specific templates... would be one solution to the question of AI and jungles, at least.

[gammadust 12]

Identifying terrain type to adjust AI behaviour is definitely possible, finding an suiting adjustment is another story.

[mistyronin 1181]

On the question of terrain and AI, I'm wondering if the engine can be reworked so that AI can perceive their current position as being of a certain terrain type (i.e. grasslands, woods, jungle, beach) and their behavior/sight/hearing be adjusted according to terrain type-specific templates... would be one solution to the question of AI and jungles, at least.

That would be a great idea.

Could also be applied to fauna. Heck if there's jungle there should be some wild animals.

[froggyluv 2136]

I would be shocked if AI was to be made aware of environment and respond with distinct behavior. AI changes tend to come slowly and do not arrive in big chunks instantly during an expansion release - Arma 2 was the 1st big jump via "micro-pathfinding". Of course, twould be fucking awesome if they did go that route:

Forest exercises

Mountain exercises

Urban exercises

Sea Exercises

Rainy exercises...ok maybe not..

I hope they do go this way one day but I think they are just too conservative to go this route .

[rübe 127]

And what exactly are the crucial attributes that define an environment? Is it just about object-density?

And ultimately: is "environment" (as in forest/mountain/urban/desert/...) indeed the optimal level of abstraction?

[gammadust 12]

I would not think of it as "the optimal level of abstraction" but just a good baseline to improve upon. But i think you are answering your own question: higher object density around always provides a higher sense of safety, a reasonable term to define behaviour. I figure identifying the terrain type alone is not the best indicator of object density, yet should be very efficient still (ie. going prone in high grass should be taken as acceptable while on concrete one should look and run for cover in terms of behaviour).

[froggyluv 2136]

Bake in an AI grid over the whole map and zone em out for special behaviors. Sure they will look goofy at times and need massive calibration but thats the way forward -they already look goofy now in certain situations and have the same behavior pattern for everywhere, so ANY addition to this would be a plus imo.

If squad's within _x meters of Field epicenter and they get ambushed, overwhelmed, helo'ed etc.. Run (as in sprint) to Forest zone. If squad is in Urban and Armor platoon shows up, get inside, crouch, and aim positions out.

One of the mods had good success with spawning soldiers indoors and always facing out, I think it's Alive, so thats definitely doable. Also AISS creator made a cool(unreleased) AI adjustment in which they actually HELD FIRE and approached a Mech group from the rear. After all getting decent positions he had em open up. This would be great for jungle warfare, AI that Hold Fire, for the ambush.

[rübe 127]

yet should be very efficient still.

Good point; surfaceType (see also: Layered Terrain Surface Representation) is certainly way cheaper than trying to count objects in some proximity or trying to come up with some approximation for an individual average view distance or what not.

That's why I totally agree with froggyluv:

Bake in an AI grid over the whole map and zone em out for special behaviors.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking ^^. The map and it's objects (buildings in particular) need to be annotated (maybe even (semi-)automatically) by information/indications the AI can efficiently leverage in its decision making process. Considering the map (and it's objects) are pretty much static (or destroyed), a lot of very valuable information could be easily baked into the map (and the objects).

The AI (as in: all 200 of em, eheh) simply can not constantly evaluate it's surroundings and make good sense of it too. Unfortunately this means that implementing such new AI behaviour would require adjustments to all objects and maps, so that might not happen anytime soon... And given that algorithms and such annotations go hand in hand, such a thing would require very careful planning - again something that is doubtful, given lots of such config stuff seems to be a bit shoehorned (I'm looking at you, vehicleClasses... you had so much potential... you were the choosen one! grrrr).

Speaking of shoehorned, if such annotations can't be generated automatically, chances are that a lot of mods will "break" AI behaviour, simply by not conforming to standards (or go the extra mile for a proper configuration; and again, I'm looking at you, damn vehicleClasses, grrrrr). Etc... so that's also kind of tricky, I guess.

Edited June 22, 2015 by ruebe

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I really wish there was a way to destroy limited view distance, and have realistic visuals without the loss of FPS. This is what Arma needs really badly at some point in the future. So many games have already broken that barrier, especially the new ones coming out, and are absolutely crazy in graphics, yet give good performance. Arma's performance is good too, but sometimes, i hate seeing that unrealistic circular fog. It makes terrains look like crap, and especially Tanoa. It's about time we got realistic acting view distance, that's based only on weather. I hate how multiplayer looks with lack of it.

Exmaple: http://arma3.com/assets/img/post/images/arma3_tanoa_screenshot_04.jpg (1392 kB)

The view distance block is fugly.

[ajsarge 10]

There were days on Oahu where you could see clear to Molokai (roughly 22 miles, with a bit of horizon in the way) and there were days where you couldn't see one mile because of the ocean haze that is not unlike the view distance effect in Arma. The difference is that the higher your altitude, the farther you can see despite the haze; however the haze diminishes your visual acuity. The system as-is works "authentically" for infantry/vehicles, but it needs a re-do for aircraft so you can always see the ground (unless there's fog/clouds), and your view distance settings expand outwards as you go, but you lose tons of detail to maintain performance. Additionally, aircraft should always be visible from the ground, with LODs to match their distance (again, unless there's fog/clouds); this prevents one guy with a 10K view distance from staying at 7.5K while a guy on the ground with only 2.5K or 5K view distance can't retaliate with AA because the jet basically doesn't exist for him.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

There were days on Oahu where you could see clear to Molokai (roughly 22 miles, with a bit of horizon in the way) and there were days where you couldn't see one mile because of the ocean haze that is not unlike the view distance effect in Arma. The difference is that the higher your altitude, the farther you can see despite the haze; however the haze diminishes your visual acuity. The system as-is works "authentically" for infantry/vehicles, but it needs a re-do for aircraft so you can always see the ground (unless there's fog/clouds), and your view distance settings expand outwards as you go, but you lose tons of detail to maintain performance. Additionally, aircraft should always be visible from the ground, with LODs to match their distance (again, unless there's fog/clouds); this prevents one guy with a 10K view distance from staying at 7.5K while a guy on the ground with only 2.5K or 5K view distance can't retaliate with AA because the jet basically doesn't exist for him.

Precisely well said!

[vegeta897 13]

I remember there being a patch in Arma 2 that greatly increased the draw distance of aircraft in flight. As in, if you were looking at a plane that was 5km away, you could see it even if your view distance was only 4k.

Is not in Arma 3? If not it really should be. There's almost no downside since you're only drawing a few dozen more polygons and since it's in the sky there's no need to draw an environment around it.

[froggyluv 2136]

Ground clutter viewblock effectiveness is gonna be huge make or breaker as well. Arma 3 campaign is 80% easier by setting Ground Terrain to Low in which you and AI fight over barren earth littered with a few bushes. On Standard AI has huge advantage and not in a fun way. Jungle is a pretty big task for the AI crew I'd say...good luck!

[eggbeast 3684]

wow this thread is full of misunderstanding about jungle fighting.

come to the nam for some training til the island comes out... we play every thursday in a full server

As in real wars, CAS and helis are vital to jungle ops as they target and destroy unseen (but heard) enemies that we mark by smoke.

pack plenty of nades and mags and use prophylactic fire - suppress an area together rather than try to "see" your enemy for a clean shot.

stay stealthy (like creeping in a dayZ town full of zombies) and make sure you all form up quietly on an enemy position, then frag em and blast the area with everything you got, including the flanks... etc etc...

night is best when you can work at close quarters with the AI less able to see you, though in A3 with all the lasers and NVG's i'm sure it will be more dull than our vietnam battles.

i know one thing for sure, based on unsung, the traps of Tanoa are gonna be a nightmare lol

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Ground clutter viewblock effectiveness is gonna be huge make or breaker as well. Arma 3 campaign is 80% easier by setting Ground Terrain to Low in which you and AI fight over barren earth littered with a few bushes. On Standard AI has huge advantage and not in a fun way. Jungle is a pretty big task for the AI crew I'd say...good luck!

As would be in real life too if there were no clutter, environment, and the enemy isn't as dumb as most would assume. They're not just to stand there and take rounds ya know. AI are not real people, and are far more predictable. They can be suppressed to, keep that in mind.

I've been playing he campaign recently and tried out the whole thing, turns out they can't see through bushes, and won't shoot through unless they know your in that general area. This is the point you should try taking them out before they get bearings again.

[froggyluv 2136]

Need to make a distinction between bushes and ground covering, ie.the high grass and tweeds which blind the player when prone and sometimes kneeling. AI don't seem to be viewblocked by the grass even when prone. Try playing campaign with terrain set to standard or higher and use the ground cover for stealth..notice the ai blasting you while they probably shouldn't. Now set the details level to low and feel the folly of your previous endeavor.

Jungle will have even more ground cover so it's pretty important. I know they lower the model into the ground somewhat for long distance viewing but I don't think they do for mid distance or cqb. The game looks awfully barren with low terrain setting but can't help but feel I'm at a silly disadvantage when going higher. Unless of course, hiding behind invisible trees is your thing.

Edited June 26, 2015 by froggyluv

[semiconductor 309]

If squad's within _x meters of Field epicenter and they get ambushed, overwhelmed, helo'ed etc.. Run (as in sprint) to Forest zone. If squad is in Urban and Armor platoon shows up, get inside, crouch, and aim positions out.

I don't think that hardly defined behaviour is acceptable for sandbox. What if I don't need AI to run and take cover? Even current courage system breaks missions in certain cases, too self-dependent and too smart AI would be a bigger problem that current one.

How an AI can determine that it being ambushed? That certain armor platoon is indeed an armor platoon (what if tanks aren't in the same group or very far from each other?) that poses a threat to them? How can a AI squadleader decide whether it should continue on his mission or retreat? It's impossible for AI to know about its environment, its capabilities, tasks and priorities and then make a meaningful decision based on that knowledge, it's something that mission designer should think of in advance and script new functionality if needed.