France General

[sudayev 27]

Turns out one of the terrorists from Paris comes from Syria and checked in on Greek island of Leros about a month ago.

 

http://www.infowars.com/report-paris-attacker-was-syrian-refugee-who-arrived-in-greece-last-month/

 

Anyone surprised? ISIS mentioned this a few month ago, while that broad Merkel was shouting schneller Poland, schneller Hungary, no limits!

[vilas 477]

 

Anyone surprised?

when i was saying this 2 weeks ago i was called idiot ;)

what about "our dear victim kicked by evil journalist" from Al-Nusra, still Real Madrid loves him so much ?

moreover - when i said that people must be checked what they carry in luggage i was also called idiot, racits

how much AK were brough in backpacks by half milion of muslims ? even if only 5% are radicals and even if only 10% of those radicals had anything like weapon it is huge number to completly disarmed population

"bigots" published photos of some refugees vs their previous photos from FB profiles with weapons, islamic jihad flags etc.

any reaction except calling them "racists" ?

probably next month or in 2 months this will repeat again , maybe in other country - depends who will bomb ISIS

ISIS members get to Europe in this flood, question is how much of those migrants support jihad, is it 1% or 5% or 10%

nearly milion people than connection of families - we may have here thousands of such attackers , few guys with AK can do massacre without being stoped (we have no arms) on Israeli streets now there is wave of stabbibing, guys with knifes mostly do not even have time to stab more than 2-3 people cause they die from bullets, of course arming now population is not solution too since many jihadists come from citizens of our countries or even converts

another articles from our press:

http://wpolityce.pl/media/271809-czy-mamy-przyjmowac-ludzi-ktorzy-nienawidza-naszej-kultury-wolnosci-i-demokracji-przeczytaj-pominiety-przez-gw-fragment-wywiadu-z-prof-zybertowiczem

"should we take people who hate us , hate our freedom, hate our values?" adrivor of President

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/271810-tylko-u-nas-jean-raspail-musimy-przestac-traktowac-islam-na-rowni-z-chrzescijanstwem-i-judaizmem-radykalnych-imamow-nalezy-wydalic-z-francji-lub-osadzic-w-areszcie

"we  cannot treat Islam on equal basis like Christianity, radical hate preaching immams should be evicted from Europe , why muslims who knew but are good not reported ? cause jihad is duty of muslim, i do not believe Hollande, he will not close 200 or 300 mosques where radical immams are teaching hate to us , islamic countries ambassadors should be immidiately called for talks to stop financing radical islam here" interview with French writer - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Raspail

 

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/11/just-released-full-text-of-islamic-state-statement-on-blessed-onslaught-in-paris-against-the-crusader-nation-of-france

ISIS published statement

 

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/11/german-interior-minister-dont-link-paris-jihad-attacks-to-migrant-influx

should i laugh or cry

[sanctuary 19]

Just adding a precision, that surprised me a bit, on what i wrote previously :

 

[...]

once the authors are known, it appears they were already on listings from the authorities as being linked to various terrorism groups ... everytime, it's never people that are unknown from french services.

 

That list of people they all come from is apparently made of +/- 1800 individuals on french ground, they're not hidden, they're free to move.

[..]

 

I was watching the TV french news and a few minutes ago the french prime minister was answering questions from the journalists that were presenting those news.

One of them in one of his question mentionned that famous listing ( called " fiche S " ) , and talked about 4000 individuals on that listing (surprised me as i always heard them mentionning around 1800 names before)

 

And the prime minister answered and mentionned that there was around 10.000 individuals on that listing.

[sudayev 27]

when i was saying this 2 weeks ago i was called idiot ;)

what about "our dear victim kicked by evil journalist" from Al-Nusra, still Real Madrid loves him so much ?

moreover - when i said that people must be checked what they carry in luggage i was also called idiot, racits

 

 

 

It is typical recently. When someone raises an alarm is usually called on idiot. When some asks for taking preventive steps is called a perfidious fascist. 

[vilas 477]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Zamach-w-Paryzu-Rabin-Dow-Lior-Europejczycy-sobie-na-to-zasluzyli,wid,17975135,wiadomosc.html

Rabin from Israel  "Europeans deserve it for what they did to us 70 years ago" 

some memes from Polish internet 

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/6/9/6941adb9400b67c0db32671960865180.jpgtitle "sorrow and joy"

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/e/e/ee1ab1eb79a42323f08613605f998596.jpgleader of second conservative party in parliament "who is more guilty ? those wild or leftists who brought those wild"

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/e/5/e547169d7f9543437e00eb6aa4ba429e.jpgleftists feminist "if majority of migrants will be terrorist - than we can think about being worried but not before"

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/f/6/f6f661f73b515b862e5baef454c3422f.jpg"you poison rabid animal, not feed"

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/e/a/eac9c44452e32826fa9c65869e8260d2.jpg"2009 save banks, 2011 save Greece, 2013 save Ukraine, 2014 save Greece, 2015 save refugees, 2020 save us"

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/4/2/420897d44088825802f00a4ce0d2ac02.jpg- Czech joke "islamic week in Lidl"

http://img7.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201511/1447622430_votshl_600.jpg"leftist logic - ISIS wants us to dislike muslims, so we must like muslims even more today - oh fuck"

http://img8.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201511/1447533107_yyjynb_600.jpg"in France there was terror act , we got to do something about this, 1 ) lets make candle on the grave photo on Twitter 2) lets make French flag on Facebook 3 ) lets deport all illegal migrants .. EU"

http://img8.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201511/1447548200_puxhmh_600.jpg"i invited muslim terrorists yesterday, today i am sending condolence to France, tommorow to other country"

http://img3.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201511/1447502978_hrsaez_600.jpg"leftist thinking "i am sorry that i was standing there, nothing happened, it is not his fault i stood in wrong place of pavement"

http://img8.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201511/1447538041_2q5e4i_600.jpg"US knowledge about the world" 

http://demotywatory.pl/4576894/Kto-sieje-wiatr-zbiera-burze

http://memy.pl/show/big/uploads/Post/24717/14475990914138.jpg"hey do you look for job? yea sure i wil come with family ... and all live happy together"

http://memy.pl/uploads/Post/24709/14475963373563.mp4

http://memy.pl/uploads/Post/24705/14475956961627.mp4

 

meanwhile bomb alarm in Russia 

[Rydygier 1317]

Problem is, the man, and I mean all of us in various degree, doesn't simply change his mind because of facts denying his point of view. Instead he'll as long, as possible and beyond, try to interprete these fact in the way, that will support his current point of view. There is strong tendency in us to close the eyes and mind just to protect our point of view. It's easier than changing very fundation of our life choices, admitting, it was flawed and the choices was wrong. To the limit of course. I hope, that limit will be reached before too late. 

 

I suppose, if for example people of France or Germany educated own children in certain way long time, now this mentality is deeply rooted, it's powerful. What we see, what we hear, is the consequences of that choice. Leftism is a deadly plague indeed. 

 

I wonder not if, but how Europe will change during my life? Hard to be an optimist in this matter. Perhaps it's time for Europe to drink, what she brew. 

 

Some Christian point of view for a change:

 

Goodness without the truth

[vilas 477]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3320070/The-deadly-blunders-run-Paris-terrorist-centre-international-manhunt-stopped-released-French-police-Belgian-border-hours-deadly-attacks.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319847/450-jihadis-UK-single-passport-seized-Questions-raised-laws-seize-papers-used.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319279/Britain-terror-alert-Special-forces-streets-London-security-experts-warn-ISIS-using-secure-cyber-caliphate-plan-attacks.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319423/Far-right-demonstrators-storm-candlelit-vigil-held-Paris-victims-chanting-Muslims-Throw-Islamists-National-leader-claims-French-no-longer-safe.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319941/Radical-panellists-event-demand-establishment-Islamic-State.html

[tortuosit 486]

 Leftism is a deadly plague indeed. 

 

Haha, you are from Poland, right? Germans, at least the ones with some education, probably wouldn't write this; for tactical reasons as you may guess.

 

My observation is: Even if leftists would get attacked directly in front of their eyes, they start to discuss why we failed to prevent it and why we are responsible. Then they will criticize the ones who have defended them in a real battle.

Our left party "Die Linke" is pretty dishonest IMO. In DDR they had the "Volksarmee", everything was very militaristic. Today the want to be angels of peace. If they were honest, they simply would say, everyone knows it, they just hate to be on the wrong side, they hate having to reside on the NATO side. As there is no alternative, they decided to build up this peace angels image. PEOPLE do not change their minds, we learn that from life.

[Rydygier 1317]

 

 

Haha, you are from Poland, right? 

 

Yes.

[tortuosit 486]

Yes.

 

Rydygier, do you think one day there's German refugees knocking on your door? ;) Polish would probably not welcome us. Oh noes...

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Problem is, the man, and I mean all of us in various degree, doesn't simply change his mind because of facts denying his point of view. Instead he'll as long, as possible and beyond, try to interprete these fact in the way, that will support his current point of view. There is strong tendency in us to close the eyes and mind just to protect our point of view. It's easier than changing very fundation of our life choices, admitting, it was flawed and the choices was wrong. To the limit of course. I hope, that limit will be reached before too late. 

 

I suppose, if for example people of France or Germany educated own children in certain way long time, now this mentality is deeply rooted, it's powerful. What we see, what we hear, is the consequences of that choice. Leftism is a deadly plague indeed. 

 

I wonder not if, but how Europe will change during my life? Hard to be an optimist in this matter. Perhaps it's time for Europe to drink, what she brew. 

 

Some Christian point of view for a change:

 

Goodness without the truth

 

I used to identify as a Marxist in highschool (just like most people around me + family, media, etc), then began to actually study history, and did a complete 180 in my views when exposed to information and once I turned off the TV. I remember calling people I disagreed with as bigots/racists because thats what i was taught to do. I still am very embarrassed with how I used to be back then.

 

From my perspective now, 80% of people everywhere don't care about anything beyond their field of view, and will say/believe in/follow anything which provides social affirmation, avoid social rejection, and increases their access to sex.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Problem is, the man, and I mean all of us in various degree, doesn't simply change his mind because of facts denying his point of view. Instead he'll as long, as possible and beyond, try to interprete these fact in the way, that will support his current point of view. There is strong tendency in us to close the eyes and mind just to protect our point of view. It's easier than changing very fundation of our life choices, admitting, it was flawed and the choices was wrong. To the limit of course. I hope, that limit will be reached before too late. 

 

I suppose, if for example people of France or Germany educated own children in certain way long time, now this mentality is deeply rooted, it's powerful. What we see, what we hear, is the consequences of that choice. Leftism is a deadly plague indeed. 

 

I wonder not if, but how Europe will change during my life? Hard to be an optimist in this matter. Perhaps it's time for Europe to drink, what she brew. 

 

Some Christian point of view for a change:

 

Goodness without the truth

 

 

Haha, you are from Poland, right? Germans, at least the ones with some education, probably wouldn't write this; for tactical reasons as you may guess.

 

My observation is: Even if leftists would get attacked directly in front of their eyes, they start to discuss why we failed to prevent it and why we are responsible. Then they will criticize the ones who have defended them in a real battle.

Our left party "Die Linke" is pretty dishonest IMO. In DDR they had the "Volksarmee", everything was very militaristic. Today the want to be angels of peace. If they were honest, they simply would say, everyone knows it, they just hate to be on the wrong side, they hate having to reside on the NATO side. As there is no alternative, they decided to build up this peace angels image. PEOPLE do not change their minds, we learn that from life.

 

 

I used to identify as a Marxist in highschool (just like most people around me + family, media, etc), then began to actually study history, and did a complete 180 in my views when exposed to information and once I turned off the TV. I remember calling people I disagreed with as bigots/racists because thats what i was taught to do. I still am very embarrassed with how I used to be back then.

 

From my perspective now, 80% of people everywhere don't care about anything beyond their field of view, and will say/believe in/follow anything which provides social affirmation, avoid social rejection, and increases their access to sex.

 

I find it funny how you try to fight an enemy you don't (want to) know anything about. If you don't want terrorism, you need to consider the causes, even if you don't like to hear about your role in all this. But let's just pretent ISIS spawned out of nowhere. What would be your strategy to defeat them? I get you blame leftists for living in the past and always looking for their own guilt. That is in large parts true, yet the past offers explanations which might be useful in order to come up with a counter-strategy. The world is insanely complex and the sterotypic thinking in categories of Good and Evil were always too thin for me to not oppose politically right opinions. But back to my question: what would you rather right people suggest? How can we protect ourselves from the ISIS threat?

[Rydygier 1317]

 

 

Rydygier, do you think one day there's German refugees knocking on your door?

 

:) I hope, it will never come to this, but if so, I hope, Poland will be prepared to help those, for who real help means welcome them (real refugees).

 

Not like those immigrants - I'm 100% for helping also them, which in their case means mostly turn them back home and help to stay there safely and willingly, till then to help them there, not here, unless no other choice (that's real refugee case). Not to lure them recklessly to the Europe. What Merkel against all the reason insist to do, and the more trying to drag whole Europe into her mess, is not helping anybody, including most of immigrants, while hurts many Europeans. The good help is the wise help, it is to do, what's really the best for the people, you want to help. But to help wisely, one have to open his eyes for the facts, for the truth, how things are really. And that's directly contradictory with the lefitst ideology which fruits some of us are experiencing now and much more may experience soon.

 

 

 

The world is insanely complex and the sterotypic thinking in categories of Good and Evil were always too thin for me to not oppose politically right opinions. But back to my question: what would you rather right people suggest? How can we protect ourselves from the ISIS threat?

 

But of course. Good and evil do exist, but are incredibly tangled. Middle East case is great example here. First thing is to ask the right questions, what you did. To defend ourselves ISIS in the current state IMO has to be ASAP removed from the Earth by force. Simple as that. This should be done just when it appeared. Wasn't for some reasons, which by itself is a disgrace for those, who could achieve this. The difficult part begins later again, like you said, they didn't came from nowhere. So one has to define properly, from where they came, to understand the real source, then go there and fix things at this source, otherwise someone else will come instead to do same thing or worse. I would quote myself:

 

 

 

AFAIK, according to them all the Earth is a possession of Allah, which basically means, it rightfully belongs to the muslims - they just reach for what's their by their faith. Or something like that. This would explain the attitude of the most of immigrants, this would explain horrible acts, they do, like these recent, and this bodes escalation till some people here, in Europe, finally open their eyes and learn some things, sadly now only in the hard way, hopefully before will be too late. I'm affraid, it's not a coincidence, so all those acts of terror and all this barbarism and hate is done by people of certain culture (sic!) and mentality, just that's the way their religion, their faith works with such kind of minds. Things like poverty, greedy fingers of great empires or cruelty of local wars are only the amplifiers, boosters. 

 

I would like to think, there are other reasons decisive here, but the more I see and the more I think, the harder to deny the above. A lesson, also infamous leftists simply have to understand, if they want Europe to survive. Most difficult question, I have no answer to is how to fix things in such case. No easy solutions IMO. Unlike the author of this grim joke:

 

 

One could think, such way of thinking is the answer. No, that's the illusion of the answer. By force we have to stop IS aggressors now, I see no other way, but that's just a first step. 

[vilas 477]

saying that ISIS come only from US politics and poverty somewhere is not true:

- there are very rich people who are religiously devoted mad ready to kill others, 

- there were active Caliphate 1000 years before USA was established, this Caliphate attacked other countries 1000 years before George Washington was born, than in 17th century too , but they were powerless untill they get money from oil, 

if they had no oil, probably history would look opposite, 

 

poverty, US activity are not only reasons 

the same works for our own natives, those who steal not always do it cause they are poor, those who are poor are not only poor cause corporation from west destroyed factory where their parents used to work, sometimes people are poor cause prefered nightclubs and playstation instead of university, 

sometimes people steel because they want to have 10 Ferraris in garrage

 

 

 

I used to identify as a Marxist in highschool (

when i lived from my mother salary i was socialist too ;)

 

 

Rydygier, do you think one day there's German refugees knocking on your door?  ;) Polish would probably not welcome us. Oh noes...

 

year 2030, together with Swedish people ;) some Swedish blond girls would me more than welcome  ;) and if you are engineer and will work hard probably you would be needed to rebuild industry here or take your industry with you in 2030 when .... 

i just afraid that atomic countries will have islamists in parliament and they would get seats in government in year 2030 and ...

i read blog of one guy who escaped Sweden 2 years ago , i know there are people who escape political correctness, moreover, on our Independence Day March we had guests from France, Hungary, Sweden carrying their flags , sound funny to see Swedish, French flags here cause they afraid to march in their country with flag on national parade cause antifa far left hooligans would attack them lol 

problem is in lack of balance, 

nature goes to equilibrium, right and left should balance , 

but west is now far left , there is no balance - the result of it will be new Hitler - which is worse and should be stopped but... it cannot be stopped - cause political correctness, leftism, far left - pushing things against previous function of societies and gonna result in bankruptcy of Europe social care system (retired people in 2030 will be huge group, add to this many kids and migrants on benefits), add to it future sharia patrols (quantity of migrants * few percent of radicals = quantity of radicals, if radicals are 5% those who support them are 5 % , moderate would be even 90 % (which i doubt) but even if , than 10% from 10 000 and 10% from 10 000 000 is thousand times different number , you can control and eliminate 10% radicals from 10 000 group when you have 100 000 police, but you are not able to control, know , check , report , intel 1000 000 radicals  because you still have 100 000 police and among them agents of radicals (happened already in UK when guy working in headquater was cooperating with islamists and intel found it in UK) , you can somehow deal with 1000 illegal weapons and effect of it , but if there will be milion of such rifles you are not able and in 2030 no-go zones will be existing in all bigger cities) 

effect of fall of social care and economy is obvious , in 10 years - if migrants will not be working , if they gonna have 5 kids which will be than teenagers (school age, not work age) , we gonna have 30% people on pensions... who will pay taxes ? 

moreover - automatization, robots, drones - will be doing easy low qualified jobs and will replace low qualified workers from warehouse, from cleaning, from pizza delivery (i can imagine drone that delivers pizza in 2030) already we have robots in warehouse of IKEA and those robots transport palettes with furniture - where is work for low qualified person ? 

now imagine - migrant family, 3 kids in school age, 2 teenagers unemployed without technical university degree and state stops paying benefits cause due to debts there is need to pay pension first to old people - and hate immam says to them "take rifle and shoot White, because it is their fault that you have no money" , even if one of those teenagers will not listen immam , second will , and i doubt this first teenager gonna call police to report his brother (than either new hitler wins or sharia is set and middleages return - both endings are bad,very old George Soros (kept in life by machines which he can afford) starts NWO USofE as its Big Brother) 

i do not see happy ending in west - i rather see civil war of neo nazis vs jihadists and rest of scared population abused by either of those 2 groups, of course those 2 groups will be armed illegally maybe neonazis will come from army structures too ) 

future is scary and looks bad if i foresee that migrants will have several kids (apart from fact that they will bring families according to EU law and majority gonna live from benefits) 

Norway Immam said that they will conquer Europe with fertility - those are words of one of immams that Europe will be conquered in 2 generations by fertility , 

poverty & limited resources issue ? Europe since late 1960s/1970 gained 10% population, Africa 300% , check wikipedia 

 

 

here are 3 movies worth seeing - blog of one guy, he says who has blood on his hands - leftists who say to enter anyone to Europe without check (we also have here guy who shouts that there cannot be control who enters and doors must remain open without any checking )

 

http://wpolityce.pl/polityka/271976-prof-wolniewicz-europa-sie-nie-obudzi-uderzenie-bylo-zbyt-male-widac-smieszne-reakcje-ktore-moga-tamtych-tylko-zachecic-nasz-wywiad

our philisopher says "west will not wake, no chance, they want to light a candle as reaction on AK or they ask for minute of silence as reaction on AK"

[IndeedPete 1038]

But of course. Good and evil do exist, but are incredibly tangled. Middle East case is great example here. First thing is to ask the right questions, what you did. To defend ourselves ISIS in the current state IMO has to be ASAP removed from the Earth by force. Simple as that. This should be done just when it appeared. Wasn't for some reasons, which by itself is a disgrace for those, who could achieve this. The difficult part begins later again, like you said, they didn't came from nowhere. So one has to define properly, from where they came, to understand the real source, then go there and fix things at this source, otherwise someone else will come instead to do same thing or worse. I would quote myself:

 

 

I would like to think, there are other reasons decisive here, but the more I see and the more I think, the harder to deny the above. A lesson, also infamous leftists simply have to understand, if they want Europe to survive. Most difficult question, I have no answer to is how to fix things in such case. No easy solutions IMO. Unlike the author of this grim joke:

 

 

 

One could think, such way of thinking is the answer. No, that's the illusion of the answer. By force we have to stop IS aggressors now, I see no other way, but that's just a first step. 

 

I will not go into detail about your Islam criticism. I think it's plain wrong, but I've had this discussion already and am too tired to repeat it. Check the Migrant Crisis thread for all my 30 pages of arguments as to why violence and extremism are not necessarily connected to the religion itself but rather to the environment in which these extremists grew up and the beliefs and values they were taught. There are Muslims, both individuals and organisations, who strongly show(ed) their disregard for what happened in France. I'm one of these non-religious people who think all religions are kind of backwards and inhumane. But we have the freedom of religion here, so I just tolerate Crhistians, Jews, and Muslims alike - it's all the same to me. Anyway, that's not the point, let's move on to your strategy.

 

"By force" is what the French are doing now. I'm doing my standard leftist trick and look 14 years back, when 9/11 happened. America's reaction was: War on Terror. First bombs on Afghanistan, and two years later on Iraq, both followed years of occupation. Libya in 2011. Drone programme in Yemen and Pakistan since 2004. The result of the War on Terror so far: more than one million dead, millions on the run, the vast majority of victims are civilians. The state of terrorism in the world? Continiously growing since 9/11. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria have been deteriorated mostly and are in a constant state of emergency ever since a regime change was conducted in these countries. In Europe and the US, anti-terrorism laws were made, undermining civil rights and limiting our freedom. With the CIA torture report and Guantanamo Bay, we've experienced the worst crime against humanity since WW2. Even today, 107 prisoners are still incarcerated in Kuba, some for over 14 years without a trial. And still, we're getting attacked quite frequently.

 

My point and question is this: how is this strategy of fighting terrorism still viable? From what I see it is ineffective and only produces more enemies. We have the same goal here: I want to live in peace and I don't want orginsations like ISIS terrorising the world. Yet bombing (alone) doesn't seem to make it better, or what do you think?

 

Sure, we can bomb ISIS away, we might have the power to do so. But what about the day after? The continuation of Islamistic terror after the interventions in the past decade and the rise of plain old neo-Nazis in my own country tell me that we cannot beat extremism with weapons. The Allies managed to military defeat the Third Reich. But they were not able to wipe this Nazi idiology from the German minds. Today, you will still find people in Germany who wish for another Hitler as much as you will find young Afghans or Syrians who think Osama Bin Laden was a great hero. So, what to do?

[vilas 477]

war for oil is not work against terrorism 

drone program - we do not know many of eliminated terrorists would carry attacks - we do not know it, 

there was no real war on jihad or war on islam extremism - cause it would hit Saudi Arabia, Iran too and first alternative fuel is needed , total closing after deportation of any muslim who is not very moderate ()half secular)  (question how many are moderate, liberal, support sharia and jihad, are radicals)

so there was no real war on terrror - USA deals now with Taliban, Taliban returned to power in regions , 

question of alternative history - if A-Stan was not invaded (also for oil) what would be history today ? we are not sure, maybe Talibs (not removed after 2001) would make 10 times worse hell in 2005 if they get in touch with Iran or Saudis or others and get hightech weapon, dirty bombs etc. and today's Caliphate would have 5 times bigger territory and Europe had such acts like France but every day , 

we do not know what would be alternative future, 

Poland in mid 1930 had secret plan to attack Germany and remove Hitler - what if ? today we would be paying compensation to Germany and what ? 

alternative history is just theme for novels, books, games but here not for ISIS 

ISIS should be wiped out but ANYONE WHO SUPPORT ISIS TOO - including western societies citizens who support it, who march "Sharia for UK" "Sharia for Denmark" "Behead those who insult islam" "Behead those who offend prophet"  = there are people walking with such banners (including converts ) what governments would do with them ? i think they are first to be arrested , 

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/864170-islamic-protest-in-sydney-e1347747005141.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A20EQ4TCYAAod7h.jpg

http://counterjihadnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/189.jpg

https://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/behead-those-who-insult-islam-1.png?w=530

http://www.frontpagemag.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2014/08/Sydney-Muslim-Protest-Turns-Violent-Coptics-Cop-This.jpg

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/behead-insult-islam-mo.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a0LjbbWzw4s/UGQmuaJN-YI/AAAAAAAAAh0/xbiK0BIHjM0/s400/behead-those-who-insult-islam.jpg

wanna fight "extreme" ? start with those in your countries , they walk free and legally 

instead what police do ? 

this : http://ndie.pl/dzien-po-serii-zamachow-aresztowano-demonstrantow-za-antyislamskie-hasla/- people arrested for anti islam posters - fuck 

i repeat - this is not poverty that makes people such mad, it is religion, even very rich people are fighting for ISIS from Saudi Arabia, from west - who had money, but they believe in life after life to be gained via killing infidels , 

it is not USA that made them such, in year 700 Caliphate was invading Middle East, in year 800 Africa in year 900 Europe including Italy, Spain, in year 1600 Ottoman Empire wanted to turn Europe into Caliphate and then Polish knights saved Europe , George Washington grandparents were back then even not on globe when John the Third Sobieski defended Europe , almost 1000 years later knights fought on southern France, in Italy - with islamic invaders who wanted conquer Europe to Caliphate that existed since 8th Century , first Crusade was organized century AFTER NOT BEFORE attacks of Caliphate on Italy, France , battle of Poitiers ? year 730 AD ? year 902  in Italy ? year 1004, 1012 ? Piza, Genua ? whom Italians fought 1000 years ago ? for sure not Celts or Normans or Vikings 

whom Austria and Poland fought in 1650s ? 

caliphate idea not started after US strike and poverty - it started 1400 years ago, those things are not new, simply they realize ideas from year 700, 

in case of Africa poverty and hunger doesn't stop Africa to have 300% population growth from late 60s/1970, doesn't make them to change style and focus on studies, work, development ,

in case of Middle East in some of those countries people have Bentleys, Ferraris, Rolls Royce as usual cars 

[Rydygier 1317]

 

 

 but rather to the environment in which these extremists grew up and the beliefs and values they were taught. 

 

 

I'm saying the same. Islam, of course, is in the very center of their beliefs and what they was thought. Is that the true Islam, or not true, not that important here. When I'm sying, the Islam is responsible, I mean, the thing, they believe in, that make them do, what they do. What they call the Islam. If muslims really don't want to be linked with such thinking, why they don't care of the good name of their faith spoiled by the terrorists by action? IMHO at least something in particularly this religion favors violent radicalism. That's my theory for today.  

 

 

 

There are Muslims, both individuals and organisations, who strongly show(ed) their disregard for what happened in France. 

 

Yeah, yeah, they always do. And so what? Even if that's 100% honest, still - so what? Every (?) new act of terror is ornamented with "Allah Akhbar!" shout. Pure coincidence? So, for some reason, the muslims can't or don't wont to do anything about terrorism except verbal condemantion post factum. Weird, isn't? Who else could more effectively deal with those, who supposedly subverts, distorts their faith? They're one of the richest countries of the world, sitting on the oil, that could use that money really, really effectively against terrorism. IMO much more effective, than anyone else, because of better understanding, same culture etc. 

 

And what's the true Islam anyway? They have no pope, no one doctrine, only several factions and many immams. One may say "peace" and mean it, another - "kill the infidels" and mean it too. Both are Muslims. 

 

Well, hard not to be at least suspicious. 

 

 

 

Anyway, that's not the point, let's move on to your strategy.

 

Far too big word. How supposedly I, some random guy on gaming forum, could have a complete strategy to solve Middle East terrorism problem?

 

 

 

"By force" is what the French are doing now. 

 

Not at all. Aerial bombings? Please. Till now political PR excuses, not real action (probably there wasn't real political interest so far for real military action). How anyone could think about true defeating IS by this alone? I'm telling about internationally coordinated full scale military effort on sea, air, and, most important, on land. Swift but thorough with civilian population protection as a priority. At least this one time that would be a just war IMO. 

 

 

 

War on Terror. First bombs on Afghanistan, and two years later on Iraq, both followed years of occupation. Libya in 2011. Drone programme in Yemen and Pakistan since 2004. The result of the War on Terror so far: more than one million dead, millions on the run, the vast majority of victims are civilians. The state of terrorism in the world? Continiously growing since 9/11. 

 

 

 

Sure, we can bomb ISIS away, we might have the power to do so. But what about the day after?

 

Exactly. I said the same. Military action now is necessary not to destroy terrorism, read, what I wrote above, but for direct self defense. It's about temporary stopping them to murder people there and here, nothing more, like disarming a bandit shooting to people on the street. The first step. The difficult part, as I said, comes later. And that's where so far US etc. failed dramatically. Because they thought, military action will remove the source of the threat (assuming that was their real goal). And again, what I said, we'll never solve terrorism problem by violence alone. So, again, when we disarm the bandit shooting people on the street, then we must find the cause, from where this bandit came and, the most, why he become a bandit. I didn't hear about any such actions in all this "War on Terror" thing, which seem to focus on killing people. Futile obvioulsy, unless they kill all people there (thus I pasted this picture above, to illustrate certain way of thinking about fighting terrorism). So I fully agree with you, military action is not terrorism problem solution. It's barely a need of the hour. This will not solve terrorism existence problem, but how we would like to solve it without this first step? Diplomatic talkings with IS? Reasoning with jihadists? Bombing them with our tolerant love? Mass Islam conversion of whole Europe? Ignore till they go away? Keep proding them with occasional bombings, so maybe they become sad, stop beheading Christians and the others and will go home?

 

 

 

 

So, what to do?

 

As I said, after IS neutralization, first to know and understand the source on the problem. Only when found and known, we can be more specific, what to do with it.

[vilas 477]

condemnations - there is such thing as taqyia - lie to defend religion 

----

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,141202,title,Pawel-Lisicki-terror-cena-europejskiej-utopii,wid,17975196,wiadomosc.html

"instead of brave decisions to end political correctness, EU again forced other countries to take more migrants" 

btw Schultz is active again 

[dontknowhow 33]

"By force" is what the French are doing now. I'm doing my standard leftist trick and look 14 years back, when 9/11 happened. America's reaction was: War on Terror. First bombs on Afghanistan, and two years later on Iraq, both followed years of occupation. Libya in 2011. Drone programme in Yemen and Pakistan since 2004. The result of the War on Terror so far: more than one million dead, millions on the run, the vast majority of victims are civilians. The state of terrorism in the world? Continiously growing since 9/11. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria have been deteriorated mostly and are in a constant state of emergency ever since a regime change was conducted in these countries. In Europe and the US, anti-terrorism laws were made, undermining civil rights and limiting our freedom. With the CIA torture report and Guantanamo Bay, we've experienced the worst crime against humanity since WW2. Even today, 107 prisoners are still incarcerated in Kuba, some for over 14 years without a trial. And still, we're getting attacked quite frequently.

 

My point and question is this: how is this strategy of fighting terrorism still viable? From what I see it is ineffective and only produces more enemies. We have the same goal here: I want to live in peace and I don't want orginsations like ISIS terrorising the world. Yet bombing (alone) doesn't seem to make it better, or what do you think?

 

Sure, we can bomb ISIS away, we might have the power to do so. But what about the day after? The continuation of Islamistic terror after the interventions in the past decade and the rise of plain old neo-Nazis in my own country tell me that we cannot beat extremism with weapons. The Allies managed to military defeat the Third Reich. But they were not able to wipe this Nazi idiology from the German minds. Today, you will still find people in Germany who wish for another Hitler as much as you will find young Afghans or Syrians who think Osama Bin Laden was a great hero. So, what to do?

ehm... you mentioned the other thread, yet I see things that have been widely discussed there. And I thought you said you agree. Oh wait, that was only to run from my super long posts :)

 

how we would like to solve it without this first step? Diplomatic talkings with IS? Reasoning with jihadists? Bombing them with our tolerant love? Mass Islam conversion of whole Europe?

I seem to sense a little amount of common sense; that's a rarity these days. If you could get rid of your "Muslims are evil" crap maybe we could almost talk

[Rydygier 1317]

 

 

If you could get rid of your "Muslims are evil"

 

And I said this where exactly? Nowhere. Muslims aren't evil. Not, that I'm somehow interested in talking with you, I've read some of your posts here and there and simply - no, we better don't talk too much with each other, really. :)

[vilas 477]

maybe good solution to prevent attacks would be not only via bullet but via ideology

i heard that Putin (maybe it is urban legend) ordered to burry terrorist bodies in swine/pig skins , i do not know is it true, but some terrorists were told to afraid of it - it may be urban legend however

maybe carry death penalty by women shooters  in case of death penalty (when situation will get to point of no return)  women in SWAT teams to eliminated armed jihadists like Kurds do 

[dontknowhow 33]

And I said this where exactly? Nowhere. Muslims aren't evil. Not, that I'm somehow interested in talking with you, I've read some of your posts here and there and simply - no, we better don't talk too much with each other, really. :)

oh, okay. And I thought I was moderating myself. Appreciate the honesty.

Now, because I'm very curious: before I cut any communication, care to explain why exactly?

[Rydygier 1317]

 

 

ow, because I'm very curious: before I cut any communication, care to explain why exactly?

 

Cutting off any communications is kinda exaggeration. Mostly about politics etc. Just I doubt, we'll find a common ground, thus our talking will be futile, while high risk of unhealthy emotions. IMO wiser to avoid... 

[IndeedPete 1038]

I'm saying the same. Islam, of course, is in the very center of their beliefs and what they was thought. Is that the true Islam, or not true, not that important here. When I'm sying, the Islam is responsible, I mean, the thing, they believe in, that make them do, what they do. What they call the Islam. If muslims really don't want to be linked with such thinking, why they don't care of the good name of their faith spoiled by the terrorists by action? IMHO at least something in particularly this religion favors violent radicalism. That's my theory for today.  

 

 

Yeah, yeah, they always do. And so what? Even if that's 100% honest, still - so what? Every (?) new act of terror is ornamented with "Allah Akhbar!" shout. Pure coincidence? So, for some reason, the muslims can't or don't wont to do anything about terrorism except verbal condemantion post factum. Weird, isn't? Who else could more effectively deal with those, who supposedly subverts, distorts their faith? They're one of the richest countries of the world, sitting on the oil, that could use that money really, really effectively against terrorism. IMO much more effective, than anyone else, because of better understanding, same culture etc. 

 

And what's the true Islam anyway? They have no pope, no one doctrine, only several factions and many immams. One may say "peace" and mean it, another - "kill the infidels" and mean it too. Both are Muslims. 

 

Well, hard not to be at least suspicious. 

 

 

Far too big word. How supposedly I, some random guy on gaming forum, could have a complete strategy to solve Middle East terrorism problem?

 

 

Not at all. Aerial bombings? Please. Till now political PR excuses, not real action (probably there wasn't real political interest so far for real military action). How anyone could think about true defeating IS by this alone? I'm telling about internationally coordinated full scale military effort on sea, air, and, most important, on land. Swift but thorough with civilian population protection as a priority. At least this one time that would be a just war IMO. 

 

 

 

Exactly. I said the same. Military action now is necessary not to destroy terrorism, read, what I wrote above, but for direct self defense. It's about temporary stopping them to murder people there and here, nothing more, like disarming a bandit shooting to people on the street. The first step. The difficult part, as I said, comes later. And that's where so far US etc. failed dramatically. Because they thought, military action will remove the source of the threat (assuming that was their real goal). And again, what I said, we'll never solve terrorism problem by violence alone. So, again, when we disarm the bandit shooting people on the street, then we must find the cause, from where this bandit came and, the most, why he become a bandit. I didn't hear about any such actions in all this "War on Terror" thing, which seem to focus on killing people. Futile obvioulsy, unless they kill all people there (thus I pasted this picture above, to illustrate certain way of thinking about fighting terrorism). So I fully agree with you, military action is not terrorism problem solution. It's barely a need of the hour. This will not solve terrorism existence problem, but how we would like to solve it without this first step? Diplomatic talkings with IS? Reasoning with jihadists? Bombing them with our tolerant love? Mass Islam conversion of whole Europe? Ignore till they go away? Keep proding them with occasional bombings, so maybe they become sad, stop beheading Christians and the others and will go home?

 

 

 

As I said, after IS neutralization, first to know and understand the source on the problem. Only when found and known, we can be more specific, what to do with it.

 

Looking at the facts, the majority of ground troops against the ISIS are Muslims or Kurds, but not Christians. Similar for Afghanistan where mostly Muslim security forces oppose the Taliban. Even if our perception here in Europe is different, a part of the Muslim countries is actually doing something. At least with thier limited resoruces. On the other hand, the powerful Gulf states are igniting the rfire even more. Saudi-Arabian financers frequently support ISIS, the state of Qatar openly supports the Hamas. If we want a solution, we need to deal with these elements as well. And I hate to say it again and again, but delivering another 60 Leopard MBTs to Qatar as we did just now is not going to make the Middle East any less of a mess. As I already dsicussed with dontknowhow, our need of oil is the dirving force in our cooperation with the true arsonists in the Middle East. It's funny how many people are focussing on the emerge of a monster like the Islamic State but forget that Saudi-Arabia lives in very similar conditions since the 19th century, when the Al-Sauds took over and formed an unforgiving theocracy. Yet these people are our friends and valuable trading partners while the IS is pure evil from hell. Talking about perception...

 

And how many drone or bomber pilots shout "thank God" when they managed to hit what they think is a valuable target, killing bystanders in the process? The Middle Eastern people perceive our bombs as much as terror as we do theirs. It works both ways.

 

Not going to argue about the Islam anymore. I just wanted to make clear that, as much as there is a wide range of Christian movements, the Islam cannot be seen as a homogeneous group. And we need to get rid of that mindset of fighting the Islam. There are 1.3 billion Muslims on this planet. A war against all of them will not go well. Hence it's important to work with the hopefully peaceful majority, and not against them.

 

I'm not sure if we can call it self-defense anymore. For me, defence stops at our borders, and attack begins past it. It's a war, and we should finally acknowledge it.

 

I went through this before, and yes, I think you can even attempt to reason with the IS, even if that sounds off and probably doesn't work. It's a group with obvious interests in power and wealth, otherwise they wouldn't act like that. Their messages might be simple propaganda or they really believe that bullshit, I don't know. As far as I know, no Western government tried it. Maybe the right moment for that has passed already, I again don't know. My idea to get rid of them is blocking their supply channels and let them dry out. Maybe combined with a UN deployment. Followed by extensive humanitarian and economic programmes. Might not be feasible, but it's at least another idea than just throwing bombs and hoping it will work this time.

 

I fear a large part of this source lies in mutual aggressions from the past and suffering on all sides. You can watch the same situation in Israel, or during the Balkan wars. They kill(ed) each other because of decade or century old conflicts that cooked up again. I wonder what is needed to, just hypothetically, ignite WW2 conflicts between the Polish and Germans or French and Germans again. I'm pretty sure in every country are people who still thirst for revenge. On the other hand, we can also ask ourselves what we needed to stay rather peaceful towards each other during the last 60 years. For France, GB, and Germany it was economics, the first iteration of the EU. I agree, in the short term, a military intervention is a likely thing to happen. Whether or not it will be successful in the long term reamins questionable.

 

ehm... you mentioned the other thread, yet I see things that have been widely discussed there. And I thought you said you agree. Oh wait, that was only to run from my super long posts :)

 

 

I largely agreed to your points, or did I say something contrary here? I was just bored for a sec, checked the forums, saw these posts and decided to see if the people I quoted cannot only bitch around but also provide actual ideas. As expected, two of three haven't responded yet, that might change over time or if I poke a bit more. And the third one suggested bombing but is aware that it cannot work as long-term solution. Pretty much what I expected, and as you see, I'm not better by any standard. I fear, one of the problems in our societies is the lack of actual ideas to solve this. I justed wanted to know what ideas self-proclaimed anti-left people have. And even if some try to put me in that group every other day, I'm not fully left either. I don't like being put into categories. Anyway, patiently waiting for more ideas. I'm curiously looking for new input, that's all. :)

[Guest]

I just have to post on this. As an American citizen, I have to admit that I feel a bit ashamed of our president in the manner of slow and reluctant response to this growing threat that affects the entire planet. I can't help but think of the thousands of tanks, and other state of the art equipment we have just sitting in parking lots unused, while Iraq is being torn up by Isis, allied countries are coming under more and more attacks, and the only real response is only the safest route for our own sake, while the weak military forces of Iraq and other nearby areas are clearly unable to defeat the enemy without ground assistance. What has happened just recently is unspeakable, and as horrid as this is, imagine what life must be like for the thousands upon thousands of people that are trapped in Isis controlled territory. This is not just terrorism, this is becoming a war. I fear that as long as president Obama remains in office, our country will remain as inactive as possible in the fight to destroy this evil presence and effectively stand by whatever means in the aftermath of any liberated areas. I can usually eventually just let such political things go, but after hearing Obamas speech at the G20 meeting, I don't know, I wish he would just be removed from office and get a real leader in office that actually has the strength of character and integrity to take a stand for the sake of others and for the sake of doing what is right.