France General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Which by itself, I suppose, wasn't subject of terrorists' attack. They didn't attacked just because there is freedom of speech in France.

There i disagree with you. Well, that's what is nice in a democracy. You disagree with me, but we can discuss in a civil manner ; if you disagree strongly, you can sue me and the justice will tell what is right or wrong. But you won't kill me if you have lost in justice. That's what happened with Charlie, it was sued 13 times by the Christians and 1 time by the Muslims, and it won most of the times (if not all the times i can't remember). I don't share most of their leftist ideas, but i recognize them the right of blasphemy or indecency...

You see, freedom of speech concerns precisely what isn't usually accepted (should i say politically correct...). That's why those newspapers are very essential (i should say consubstantial) in democracy, even if some people feel offended or insulted. They always have the right to sue them.

If those newspapers create disorder and trouble in the country, something must be done to educate the country, but not against those newspapers, as long as the law (which is extremely precise in that matter) isn't broken.

Feel free to disagree with me, though :)

[mistyronin 1181]

I think the main cause of the attack was the boys frustration that lead them to be brainwashed by a few bastards that use a twisted view of Islam to manipulate and get power.

After all, we are talking about people who were raised in France, who even lived like French normal teens: drinking alcohol, with dreams of becoming a rap star, etc. not about some poor Iraq civilian raised and indoctrinated into extremist Islam that was bombed by the Coalition and had strong motives for vengeance.

But as they couldn't achieve their expectations they decided to reject their culture and turn into the first one that promised them to be "heroes" ( martyrs )...

It's really hard to fight against frustration, after all most teenagers are frustrated at some point... So the ones we can fight are those who take advantage of the situation, the ones that radicalize our youth.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I don't think the social factor is essential, even if it somehow plays a role. I see it more as the brainwashing system of sectarian movements. There are a lot of very well integrated people who are going to Syria ATM ; they have jobs, money, family, and they leave all this to go. Lot of them aren't even muslim, nor from North Africa or any "muslim" country but Catholic or even jewish.

[Tonci87 163]

A ver alma de cantaro... Which country have I talk that I don't know very good? And / or using a simplistic point of view?

If you mean Spain, I even have Spanish passport because of all the years I lived there... ( After all I only lived there different years in each of these cities: Barcelona, Cartagena, Torrelavega, Madrid and Toledo )... I even studied a couple years of Anthropology in a Spanish University... How I dare!

As there would say: Es mejor estar callado y parecer tonto, que... Así que aplicate el cuento y espabila

@djotacon

Apply cold water to that burn ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

I don't think the social factor is essential, even if it somehow plays a role. I see it more as the brainwashing system of sectarian movements. There are a lot of very well integrated people who are going to Syria ATM ; they have jobs, money, family, and they leave all this to go. Lot of them aren't even muslim, nor from North Africa or any "muslim" country but Catholic or even jewish.

Yeah I agree, I was focusing more on the frustration side. I mean even the richest man in the World can be frustrated for some reason ( for example, if he has expectations to "do" Natalie Portman and she rejects him ). Frustrated/desperate people can do a lot of crazy things.

Everyone can eventually become frustrated, the problem are the brain-washers that always take advantage of people's weaknesses. These are the ones that must be fought IMHO, specially the ones that dwell in Europe; but it's more a fight of minds than physical. And we do need the help of the common Muslims to alert the authorities when they find some radical folk doing proselytism; it's not feasible nor healthy to have every Muslim under surveillance.

Edited January 12, 2015 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Germany: Leipzig forbids Mohammed Cartoons

Satirical images of the prophet could be construed as provocative, fears the Assembly authority in Leipzig. _{(the controversy Pegida/Legida demonstrations)}

Pegida mobilizes for weeks against the alleged Islamization of Germany by immigrants.

After Paris, one must assume that the Muhammad cartoons are a provocation," said a city spokesman of the DPA (german press agency). The goal is a peaceful course of the demonstration. But for the other assemblies there is no such requirement.

French and francophone cartoonists published on Sunday a leaflet entitled "Pegida, get out!" . "We reject that Pegida wants to monopolize the memory of our colleagues," said one of the organizers of the German Press Agency

article google translated

Seems like they did lift the cartoon ban.

As much these demonstrations and the people who are behind it are controversial, a ban of such cartoons sounds just strange after the outcry for press freedom and freedom of expression.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/mohammed-karikaturen-leipzig-hebt-verbot-auf-a-1012595.html

[Tonci87 163]

It was pretty stupid in the first place. A city is in no position to decide what falls under free speech and what not.

[Sooke 13]

At least 20 attacks perpetrated against muslims since wednesday.

Unfortunately I can't find any articles in english.

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2015/01/12/une-vingtaine-d-actions-contre-la-communaute-musulmane-recensees_4554633_3224.html

I hope this is an emotional reaction that will stop before it gets out of hand.

[mistyronin 1181]

At least 20 attacks perpetrated against muslims since wednesday.

Yes, it's a shame.

In France 24 they were reporting some, but no foreign mainstream media is talking about it.

[nodunit 397]

Well, is the country media talking about it? Similar to Nigeria, its difficult to catch the worlds eye when not even your own country is reporting it to great extent.

[Sooke 13]

Good point NodUnit, sadly beside Le Monde and Liberation -2 major newspapers- nobody's talking about it.

I've checked the front page of BFM-TV, Le Point, France 24, Le Nouvel Observarteur, Rue 89.

Maybe they do talk about it but it's burried somewhere on their websites.

Worst, more than one have articles on their front page about the minority of people claiming "I'm not Charlie", mostly muslims of course.

I trully think the polarization between communities is a greater danger to the french society then the jihadists are.

Most of these media have articles talking about ways to prevent islamophobia...maybe they could start by reporting the islamophobic attacks...

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sooke

[djotacon 190]

A ver alma de cantaro... Which country have I talk that I don't know very good? And / or using a simplistic point of view?

If you mean Spain, I even have Spanish passport because of all the years I lived there... ( After all I only lived there different years in each of these cities: Barcelona, Cartagena, Torrelavega, Madrid and Toledo )... I even studied a couple years of Anthropology in a Spanish University... How I dare!

As there would say: Es mejor estar callado y parecer tonto, que... Así que aplicate el cuento y espabila

Using spanish insults to avoid the forum moderators is a low form of win a debate but...

Spain is now a democracy governed by politicians who have unamimente condemned the previous regime . Accusing politicians of alluding to their ancestors is a deeply simplistic approximation.

Honestly I firmly believe that you do not know what you 're talking about. As the political situation in Spain is only known by the Spanish people like me.

Edited January 13, 2015 by djotacon

[Tonci87 163]

Spain for the Spainards, eh?

[13islucky 10]

Worst, more than one have articles on their front page about the minority of people claiming "I'm not Charlie", mostly muslims of course.

I trully think the polarization between communities is a greater danger to the french society then the jihadists are.

Most of these media have articles talking about ways to prevent islamophobia...maybe they could start by reporting the islamophobic attacks...

Ah, so that's what "Je ne suis pas Charlie, je suis Mohammed" is. Kinda pissed me off seeing mass amounts of likes on those Facebook comments at first, but it helped me realize how watching South Park growing up really got me (and surprisingly enough my rather religious family) over getting offended by satire.

[Sooke 13]

Well the "Je suis Mohamed" refers to the policeman who was shot on the street following the newspaper attack.

But these articles talk about the small minority of muslim who refuses to grieve in memory of Charlie Hebdo. Those are 2 different types of people.

EDIT : oops, sorry I mixed up the name of the policeman, it wasn't Mohamed but Ahmed Merabet, so yeah, you are right.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sooke

[ProfTournesol 956]

I trully think the polarization between communities is a greater danger to the french society then the jihadists are.

I agree, while that's probably the main goal of those terrorist attacks.

[Tonci87 163]

I agree, while that's probably the main goal of those terrorist attacks.

I agree, they are after all terror attacks. Their aim is to terrorize the people, to make them live in fear.

And I must say that the French had the perfect response with that huge parade. A Huge message of solidarity, of courage and of will. Not like the Americans after 9/11.

The 9/11 Terrorists were very successfull. Not only did they do their attack inside america, they also tricked the US into taking away its own freedoms, into sending hundreds of soldiers to their death in a far away land, into creating a lot of new jihadists because innocent people lost their belongings and their lifes in those wars....

[nodunit 397]

Well the "Je suis Mohamed" refers to the policeman who was shot on the street following the newspaper attack.

But these articles talk about the small minority of muslim who refuses to grieve in memory of Charlie Hebdo. Those are 2 different types of people.

EDIT : oops, sorry I mixed up the name of the policeman, it wasn't Mohamed but Ahmed Merabet, so yeah, you are right.

But if we're going to believe in free speech and freedom of thought then isn't that their right to refuse to grieve? As long as they aren't bringing physical harm to another person what is their wrongdoing? I'm not saying this for just muslims but rather anyone who would disagree and not stand beside an image or message to support the death of an idea or something Do they become an enemy instantly for looking the other way?

The 9/11 Terrorists were very successfull. Not only did they do their attack inside america, they also tricked the US into taking away its own freedoms, into sending hundreds of soldiers to their death in a far away land, into creating a lot of new jihadists because innocent people lost their belongings and their lifes in those wars....

Yeah our government is full of a bunch of greedy lobbying old morons that see war as a chance to profit and can't even be arsed to sign a declaration of war, and war seems to be their answer to everything these days, both foreign and domestic.

[mistyronin 1181]

Using spanish insults to avoid the forum moderators is a low form of win a debate but...

What are you talking about?

Do you still remember that people can check the words in the internet? And that some moderator can speak Spanish right? ( Google translate and lexicons are at everyone's reach ) :j:

What strange Spanish insult was hidden in my words?

If you mean for the expression: Es mejor estar callado y parecer tonto; don't worry there's an English expression that matches it and it's practically the same: It is better to be silent and be thought a fool.

And Alma de cantaro would be translated ass: Mr. Doesn't-have-a-clue.

Honestly I firmly believe that you do not know what you 're talking about. As the political situation in Spain is only known by the Spanish people like me.

We have already known here a few people that thought the same way about their countries, that only them had their country's truth.

Which is kind of funny in a forum of this nature ( where we comment daily about a good amount of countries ).

Edited January 13, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Sooke 13]

But if we're going to believe in free speech and freedom of thought then isn't that their right to refuse to grieve?

Absolutely, and as far as I know nobody has been arrested for that in France.

Not sure if you were asking me or if it was a rethorical question, my problem is how some french media put them under the spotlight, defo not the right time.

Someone was sentenced with 6 months of jail (without parole) for screaming "Vive la kalach ! bang bang bang" (=kalachnikov FTW !) right in front of policemen tho

http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/six-mois-de-prison-ferme-pour-avoir-crie-vive-la-kalach-857040.html (French)

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sooke

[ProfTournesol 956]

Someone was sentenced with 6 months of jail (without parole) for screaming "Vive la kalach ! bang bang bang" (=kalachnikov FTW !) right in front of policemen tho

http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/six-mois-de-prison-ferme-pour-avoir-crie-vive-la-kalach-857040.html (French)

That's because advocating terrorism or inciting hatred or violence are criminalized. A good thing if you ask me.

[Sooke 13]

Yes but the problem is the guy isn't going to learn any -good- lesson in jail.

I don't understand how our society still believe that putting all the bad guys together, away from society, is actually producing any good result.

And according to the medias that's precisely where Coulibali became an extremist...

I don't know, sentence him to 1.000 hours of public work or send him with an humanitarian organisation in a warzone so he can see first hand the consequence of extremism.

Anything but the jail, you've most likely created a new enemy by doing so.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sooke

[djotacon 190]

What are you talking about?

Do you still remember that people can check the words in the internet? And that some moderator can speak Spanish right? ( Google translate and lexicons are at everyone's reach ) :j:

What strange Spanish insult was hidden in my words?

If you mean for the expression: Es mejor estar callado y parecer tonto; don't worry there's an English expression that matches it and it's practically the same: It is better to be silent and be thought a fool.

And Alma de cantaro would be translated ass: Mr. Doesn't-have-a-clue.

We have already known here a few people that thought the same way about their countries, that only them had their country's truth.

Which is kind of funny in a forum of this nature ( where we comment daily about a good amount of countries ).

I've had enough "good manners" to answer you despite your insults in private and in public. I'm not going to waste more of my precious life time arguing with someone like you.

I've already said what I think of your argument and you have given me reason with your behavior.

Good luck.

[ProfTournesol 956]

DGjj74eoprs#t=32

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

About Nigeria, i absolutely agree that what happens there is much more awful than what happened in France (it cannot even be compared), and that the French medias are almost quiet on the subject. They are most of the time very centered on what happens in France only, that's why i never watch/read them but prefer the international press, such as the BBC.
But to be honest, France is one of the very few Western countries very much involved against islamist terrorists in Africa, with some success. I know some will reply we are defending our own interests (which is true of course), but the fact is that we are doing something. Cameroon is extremely threatened by Boko Haram atm, and has almost no Armed forces. Will Germany do something if Cameroon is invaded by BH ?

[mistyronin 1181]

I've had enough "good manners" to answer you despite your insults in private and in public. I'm not going to waste more of my precious life time arguing with someone like you.

Does that mean that you'll finish your rants I-am-the-only-truth-owner and let us continue with our conversation? If so, I'm glad :)

Yes but the problem is the guy isn't going to learn any -good- lesson in jail.

I don't understand how our society still believe that putting all the bad guys together, away from society, is actually producing any good result.

And according to the medias that's precisely where Coulibali became an extremist...

I don't know, sentence him to 1.000 hours of public work or send him with an humanitarian organisation in a warzone so he can see first hand the consequence of extremism.

Anything but the jail, you've most likely created a new enemy by doing so.

Indeed.

In fact once I had the chance to talk with a manager of a prison and he told me that the biggest issue they have is that as nowadays you can't force inmates to work then most of them spend their time doing nothing, gathering info from their mates and planning what they will do after their jail-time. Basically our European prisons have become a Crime University paid by the tax-payers.

One youngster that entered for a little theft can learn how drug trafficking works and where to buy bigger weapons... And not only that, he has all the time in the World to think what to do next...

IMHO public works are the way to go, but from terrorist to young vandals.

But to be honest, France is one of the very few Western countries very much involved against islamist terrorists in Africa, with some success.

Yup, but no one talks about it. The only info I've been able to read is the one on Le Monde and other french newspapers, and a few French Documentaries.

I think that the foreign media should talk more about France's efforts and advances in Africa ( and not only now cuz of the recent events in Paris ).

Edited January 13, 2015 by MistyRonin