Russia General

[Drxi 10]

Yes Villas, there were fighters coming from other lands to help us defend our country, and since you're bragging so much about why ain't you mentioning Russian volunteers coming over to Bosnia & Herzegovina and fighting along side other Serbian paramilitary forces ?

[vilas 477]

Also, Nazi Germany was no1 world's superpower in economy and military -- what hungry soul would not fight alongside it to become like it ?

for us Third Reich is "all evil" and anyone who fight along, not against , similarly too, thats why when i read that one nation was fighting in SS, other nation fought against SS then enemy of my enemy is my ally,

The most of people didn't even know what they fought for.

strange, cause i believed that people back than fought either for/against "nation" or for/against "religion", and people who fought, fought with main idea - eliminate other nation/believers or turn them into slaves,

situation that you prescribe is closer to pre-WW1, yes, but WW2 there was already difference, back than people not fought for "this or other king who came and took them conscript", because WW1 was like this,

indeed it was in empires-wars, cause empires often occupied 1 country and later cousin was in 1 empire and second cousin in 2nd empire,

but also people fought for independence of newly rebuilt countries after centuries of occupation of fallen empires (Russian Empire, Prussian, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman one)

in XIX c. and before really people had no basic education, but during WW2? there was already radio, telephones, press and even elections with parliament and different parties (at least here),

we fought against Germans cause they were bombing us telling we are under-human that should be slaves,

because according to plans of Hitler and Himmler my nation was planned to extint next after Jews, first Jews had to be eliminated, than POles, with plan to leave only 100 000 POles from 35 000 000 as slaves on farms and etc.

if i could count "hate level" in scale 1 to 10 , than for SS i would give 11, and 9 for Sharia fighters in Europe (cause i believe in their land they can live according to their weird tradition altough as apostate i do not accept killing apostates and atheists) and NKVD,

thus i cannot even look at it different cause Third Reich plan (if they would won WW2) was to kill 99% of my nation and turn 1% into slaves,

maybe you not understand it but if your nation would be planned to be eliminated, you would, because we were told not be human, like nowadays islamists say about infidels, like Talmud says about non-Jews,

Third Reich not planned to eliminate Frenchmen, Dutch nation, Austrians, Norwegians,

official plans to eliminate whole nations were about Jews (first order), Poles (second order), Russians, Belarussians,

USSR, not matter what we can say, never planned delete 99% of population here, because for Germans we were not humans back than,

USSR confiscated all property of my family indeed, USSR sent my family for 18 years inprisoned within borders of USSR including Siberia region camp (granfather from mother-side was railway officer and we had land-property, my family has reasons to hate USSR ),

but USSR never planned to destroy us as human beings, even in Soviet Union my mother (born in 1948, in USSR till 1958) had education and my grandmother had normal job in USSR and flat, Germans with Muslims (Azeri, Azerbeijani) legion who came to my city were simply burning people alive in 1944, as i was born in 70s, for me it is not far history too, my neigbor was witnessing this all and as kid i heard almost every day , brother of my granfather was also every day telling about WW2 and fights, many movies were about WW2,

fact is that half of Europe had romance with Hitler (by saying this i mean huge amount of SS volunteers, Vichy-like government cooperation), it is very hard to me to accept that because of WW2 Serbs are not as well victims , because Ottoman Empire was abusing them, than WW2 ,

Yes Villas, there were fighters coming from other lands to help us defend our country, and since you're bragging so much about why ain't you mentioning Russian volunteers coming over to Bosnia & Herzegovina and fighting along side other Serbian paramilitary forces ?

because websites i read were mentioning about biased vision in western media which show only one side of coin, and because brining Jihad to Europe is something which is totally middleages, those websites were not denying crimes of Serbs, but saying that Serbs also suffered, and i believe it made Russia to vote as they voted, because in Russia cult of WW2 and fight with Hitler is 10x stronger than anywhere in the world (similar cult existen in my country till 1989), maybe in Isreal it is stronger, probably for Russia it was not important that Bosniaks, Croats suffered, but for them it is important that in WW2 Bosnia and Croatia fought along Third Reich, plus of course Russia is loyal ally to Serbia, because of Kosovo independence and also because of that for Russia all that happens in Syria is simply western-world conspiracy against Assad being ally to Russia in region where Russian want to have ally,

historical thesis about "roots of conflict in Yugoslavia"

http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/32200/0011.pdf

what i can read from this e-book :

Page 1

Monika Trawczyńska

The genesis and consequences of the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina

in the years 1992-1995

Balkan Peninsula is from the nineteenth century, the site of numerous

conflicts and ethno-cultural diversity of the population of this

part of Europe means that the geopolitical situation has not been

stabilized until today. The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

from 1992-1995, showed that the old continent after the two world wars

the world is not a place free of conflicts and atrocities,

which they committed the troops of all parties involved in

War, caused great astonishment and terror throughout the world.

The events of World War II, which took place on

Balkans, very strongly imprinted in the memory of the inhabitant

population. As a result, Croats collaboration with Germany and Italy

It came into being called. Independent State of Croatia with Ante

Pavelic headed

410

. Also, Muslim activists from Bosnia and

Herzegovina attempted to obtain autonomy, directing in November

Hitler's 1942 memorandum, which argued that they are not

Slavs, but come from the Goths, and came to the Balkans as early as the third

century as a Germanic tribe

411

. Created voluntary legion

Muslim, whose officers were of German origin

412

. In

1942-1943, SS formations were also filed with the Albanians and

Croats and together numbered about 20-25 thousand soldiers, who were

and sent to France to Silesia in order to follow training, and after his

finished, in March 1944, they returned into Bosnia, where

They fought against the guerrillas, often making murders on

Serb population

this is what our historical books say

source: http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/32200/0011.pdf

our historical books claim that reason for war in Yugoslavia was WW2 situation

a lot of words in this book is about coming to Europe Islamic radicals

Page 1

Religious radicalism of many mujahideen went hand in hand with

progressive radicalization of the way the government in Sarajevo, which began

transform the areas controlled by them in typical "state

religious ", where they began to censor radio and television, in schools

missionaries arrived from Arab countries and Arab science, reading

The Koran and Islam courses have become progressively mandatory

441

.

The situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina interested in the Osama

Bin Laden, who in 1993 obtained a passport of that country, and

then citizenship

442

. Asian edition of The Wall Street Journal

mentioned information, supposedly bin Laden has appointed Ayman al

Zawahiri to direct the activities in Bosnia

although this ebook says "there is no doubt that Serbs commited majority of crimes and killed more people than other in this conflict"

but we started from point - why Russia voted such like in UN,

and i simply took "forensic investigation to find Russian reasons to such voting"

i have such information from our books, what can i think ?

i do not live there, i do not know if this book says true or not, so i do not know if Mujahedin came there with mandatory Quoran teaching, i have no idea is it true, but mandatory religion teaching is something that should not happen in Europe (no matter catholic or not, cause even in my country church was trying to make religion mandatory in school and as metalhead i had problems with this in secondary school when i refused to go to religion lectures and i had problems in catholic society when i was saying that god doesn't exist , we had laugh of guy telling us that water turned into wine cause god made it without fruits and fermentation and that virgin gave birth without sex or when priest was telling us to take bath in clothes "to not look at organs created for lust" and that sex without marriage is equal killing someone, not mentioning stupid problems every friday "why don't you eat fish, you must eat fish, it is friday, you cannot eat pork", i come from very catholic family in which condom = evil, oral sex = evil, anal sex = hell till eternity, till something like this is not mandatory for others, people can believe whatever they want even Spaghetti or Pizza as god - but i always asks such people a question "why children are born with cancer, what they made wrong that your god allows it")

if such ebook is bullshit than tell me so, i have no personal expirience to say that such book is bullshit or not, but i have deep alergy on people that say that book written by man who sits on the cloud tells what i can eat at what callendar day - because only person who can say what i should eat is doctor who specializes in diet

---------

maybe it is Russian game to do anything to have Serbia as ally point in middle of Southern Europe

Edited July 10, 2015 by vilas

[Dwarden 1125]

please don't go offtopic ... this is chat related to Russia ...

[mistyronin 1181]

(National Interest) Russia's New Nuclear Submarines to Target U.S. Aircraft Carriers

Russia is designing “carrier killer†nuclear submarines, local media is reporting.

According to reports in The Moscow Times and Pravda, among others, Anatoly Shlemov, the head of the state-owned United Shipbuilding Corporation's state defense order department, recently said that Russia will build two-classes of fifth-generation submarines as part of Vladimir Putin’s military modernization plan.

The first of these submarines will be designed to intercept strategic submarines whereas the other class will be built to target large surface vessels, principally aircraft carriers. “Though the designs have not yet been named, one will be classified as an ‘underwater interceptor’ and the other an ‘aircraft carrier killer,’†The Moscow Times paraphrased Shlemov as saying.

[Tonci87 163]

Well, to come back to the original question as to why Russia vetoed, there are multiple reasons.

1. Out of traditional loyalty to Serbia, wich is a mutual thing.

2. To piss of everybody else.

3. Because Russians were fighting there alongside the Serbs and also commited warcrimes with them. During the Ukraine conflict it was interesting to observe how many Russians claimed to be Balkan war veterans and how many Serbs went to join them to "return the favour".

Russia had to veto this because sooner or later someone is going to start questioning how much help the Serb troops got from Moscow and how much Moscow knew about the ethnic cleansings.

[vilas 477]

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/258969-rosyjscy-zolnierze-nie-chcieli-walczyc-na-wschodzie-ukrainy-trafia-do-wiezienia-surowa-kara-za-dezercje-z-jednostki

deserters in Russian army,

few dozens of Russian soldiers who refused to fight in Ukraine are sentenced for desertion, journalists claim

and another article about USSR history:

http://historia.wp.pl/title,Radzieccy-oficerowie-w-Wojsku-Polskim,wid,17700385,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=115352

in years 1943-1968 in "Polish" army commies put a lot of Soviet citizens, but simply those people get new names, Polish uniform and were told to be Polish officer,

scale of it was huge, our army had than ca 200-300 000 people and historicians say that among those soldiers ... 21 000 were Soviet officers,

so structure of "Polish" army till 1968 was - Pole as private, Pole as a corporal, Pole as sergeant but Russian as colonel,

in case of terror aparatus (ministry of internal affairs security) after WW2 till 1956 we had 50% "immigrants",

in case of army we had almost 5-10% "immigrants", probably on high ranked officers positions in army we had majority of such "immigrants",

i even personally knew family of one such guy, after WW2 in late 50s, father of my colleague from job was sent from Moscow to Poland, he get his name changed, he get our citizenship, he was Soviet Colonel and he came to became head of our military unit in one city,

such "independence" we had from USSR till 1968 ,

maybe not many people in west even knew about such facts, that USSR was putting their citizens in satelite-countries as commanders,

i do not know how it looked in other countries of Warsaw Pact, but in case of my country, as visible, 21 thousands officers were from Soviet Union till 1968 , maybe more than half generals , for sure dozens of percent of colonels,

[srbknight 925]

Well, to come back to the original question as to why Russia vetoed, there are multiple reasons.

1. Out of traditional loyalty to Serbia, wich is a mutual thing.

2. To piss of everybody else.

3. Because Russians were fighting there alongside the Serbs and also commited warcrimes with them. During the Ukraine conflict it was interesting to observe how many Russians claimed to be Balkan war veterans and how many Serbs went to join them to "return the favour".

Russia had to veto this because sooner or later someone is going to start questioning how much help the Serb troops got from Moscow and how much Moscow knew about the ethnic cleansings.

can we stay on topic or we can talk about 250.000 displaced Serbs from croatia during 1992'95 ? or Ww2 is better part to explain people about genocide and massacres Yasenovatz ? please stay on topic !

Edited July 14, 2015 by SRBKnight

[Tonci87 163]

Fun fact, Croatia would really want some of those "displaced" (actually the Serbs were ordered to flee by their own "government" when their frontline collapsed) back in Croatia. They are wanted in connection with warcrimes.

[vilas 477]

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/74201

[Degman 73]

can we stay on topic or we can talk about 250.000 displaced Serbs from croatia during 1992'95 ? or Ww2 is better part to explain people about genocide and massacres Yasenovatz ? please stay on topic !

Russia defending Serbia in politics is not related to Russia - how ? Also, if Russia had something to do with Jasenovac, then yes - it belongs in this thread.

[srbknight 925]

Russia defending Serbia in politics is not related to Russia - how ? Also, if Russia had something to do with Jasenovac, then yes - it belongs in this thread.

Yes it defends Serbia from resolution that can't bring peace between people in Ex-YU only hate and warmongering people but more pain is given here when you are calling Serbs as an genocidal nation but you forgot what happened 1995 and 1941 by Army of independent Croatia

Casualties of 1941-44 750,000 people of them 500.000 Serbs 50.000 Roma's and 200.000 Jews this is not related to this thread but also not the details of War in Bosnia in this thread Russia stopped the Srebrenica resolution because Serbian president ask them to put veto and that's all !

[Degman 73]

Yes it defends Serbia from resolution that can't bring peace between people in Ex-YU only hate and warmongering people but more pain is given here when you are calling Serbs as an genocidal nation but you forgot what happened 1995 and 1941 by Army of independent Croatia

Casualties of 1941-44 750,000 people of them 500.000 Serbs 50.000 Roma's and 200.000 Jews this is not related to this thread but also not the details of War in Bosnia in this thread Russia stopped the Srebrenica resolution because Serbian president ask them to put veto and that's all !

This is Russia General thread. When Russia put veto on something, then it can be mentioned in this particular thread. I dont see why something should not be mentioned just because it features something about Serbia.

Nobody here is calling you a genocidal nation (are you complex or something ?), but we do hate those who has commited war crimes. Some of Serbian officers, Chetnik leaders (Šešelj and his 'students') and individuals which did it, not the whole Serbian nation. It's like we are offending you personnaly or something.

(...) 700k victims in Jasenovac is a pure joke. Yugoslavian research (and all the researchs until today with serious and objective approach) from 1964. indicates that there were 80k of victims, while they are counting on yet unfound mass graves with believeing that max. number would be around 100-150k.

Until today there is still no more skeletons found than 70-85k. Note that Ustashies had no gas chambers, but bullets and knives.

And just to stop this off-topic in off-topic madness, I will note that my own grandgrandmother was captured (because of helping partisans) and sent to Jasenovac. She was saved in the last moment.

[Tonci87 163]

Pulling numbers out of his ass again, I see...

Care to explain what happened in 1995?

[mistyronin 1181]

Tho I enjoy reading your Balkan debate, I have to suggest as always that maybe a Balkan's thread would fit more for this kind of conversation.

- - -

Seems that there are serious problems in the Russian Military budget due to the Russian poor economy.

(Business Insider) Russia's military aircraft are now crashing from overuse

Russia's Air Force has suffered from a string of crashes over the past month that highlight the country's maintenance and modernization woes.

Since June 4, there have been five major Air Force crashes, USNI News reports. On June 4, a MiG-29 and an Su-34 both crashed. The SU-34 is one of Russia's most advanced fighter jets, and was officially introduced into service in March of 2014.

These incidents were followed by a Tu-95 Bear bomber suffering an engine fire on June 8, another MiG-29 crashing on July 3, and an Su-24 crash on July 6 that killed both of its pilots.

Most recently, a second Tu-95 crashed on Tuesday close to the Chinese border. The incident has led to Russia grounding its Tu-95 fleet to carry out mechanical inspections of its planes.

Aircraft incidents are perhaps inevitable even in the most advanced militaries. But the rapid pace of crashes in Russia could point to systemic flaws and problems within the country's Air Force as a whole. A possible contributor to the spate of accidents is the rapid uptick of Russian aerial maneuvers resulting from the Ukraine crisis, along with general poor maintenance and an aging fleet.

This piece of news relates with this older one:

(Business Insider)Russia is modernizing its increasingly aggressive air force

Russia's air force has problems.

Although Moscow has the world's second-largest air force, which includes strategic bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons thousands of miles around the world, its fleet is old. Constructed almost entirely during the Soviet era, the aircraft fleet is now largely aging and dwindling in numbers, reports Reuters.

[srbknight 925]

This is Russia General thread. When Russia put veto on something, then it can be mentioned in this particular thread. I dont see why something should not be mentioned just because it features something about Serbia.

Nobody here is calling you a genocidal nation (are you complex or something ?), but we do hate those who has commited war crimes. Some of Serbian officers, Chetnik leaders (Šešelj and his 'students') and individuals which did it, not the whole Serbian nation. It's like we are offending you personnaly or something.

(...) 700k victims in Jasenovac is a pure joke. Yugoslavian research (and all the researchs until today with serious and objective approach) from 1964. indicates that there were 80k of victims, while they are counting on yet unfound mass graves with believeing that max. number would be around 100-150k.

Until today there is still no more skeletons found than 70-85k. Note that Ustashies had no gas chambers, but bullets and knives.

And just to stop this off-topic in off-topic madness, I will note that my own grandgrandmother was captured (because of helping partisans) and sent to Jasenovac. She was saved in the last moment.

Yugoslavian and Israeli research but Croatia never decline that

it's i guess less genocidal that 150k that are founded ????

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------

Pulling numbers out of his ass again, I see...

Care to explain what happened in 1995?

from 4-7th august 1995 at least 1,192 civilians were killed during operation Storm (oluja) 150,000–200,000 Serbs from the former RSK

21,000 Bosniaks from the former APWB

22,000 Bosniaks and Croats from the Republika were displaced from the Croatia in few days !

Investigators: MH17 shot down over Ukraine by air-to-air missile not made in Russia

http://tass.ru/en/world/808930

[maturin 12]

How the hallucinations of an eccentric KGB psychic influence Russia today

Investigators: MH17 shot down over Ukraine by air-to-air missile not made in Russia

http://tass.ru/en/world/808930

Lol, how many times can they possibly change their story? For a whole year all the experts on Russian TV have sworn up and down first that it was a Ukrainian R-60, then a Ukrainian Buk. Now it's a mystery NATO missile. Perhaps by the anniversary we will go back to the initial theory of the passengers already being dead and the plane blowing up as planned.

[Tonci87 163]

Yugoslavian and Israeli research but Croatia never decline that

it's i guess less genocidal that 150k that are founded ????

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------

from 4-7th august 1995 at least 1,192 civilians were killed during operation Storm (oluja) 150,000–200,000 Serbs from the former RSK

21,000 Bosniaks from the former APWB

22,000 Bosniaks and Croats from the Republika were displaced from the Croatia in few days !

Investigators: MH17 shot down over Ukraine by air-to-air missile not made in Russia

http://tass.ru/en/world/808930

You sure you can list credible sources for those numbers that are not, you know, bullshit?

[oxmox 73]

Just checked it, the data is from the english wikipedia:

"The number of Serb civilian deaths is disputed—Croatia claims that 214 were killed, while Serbian sources cite 1,192 civilians killed or missing. During and after the offensive, 150,000–200,000 Serbs—or nearly the entire Serb population of the area formerly held by the ARSK—fled and a variety of crimes were committed against the remaining civilians there."

(no linked source)

"The evacuation and following mass-exodus of the Serbs from the RSK led to a significant humanitarian crisis. In August 1995, the UN estimated that only 3,500 Serbs remained in Kordun and Banovina (former Sector North) and 2,000 remained in Lika and Northern Dalmatia (former Sector South), while more than 150,000 had fled to Yugoslavia, and between 10,000 and 15,000 had arrived in the Banja Luka area.[133] The number of Serb refugees was reported to be as many as 200,000 by the international media[177] and international organizations.[178] Also, 21,000 Bosniak refugees from the former APWB fled to Croatia.[133] After Operation Storm, the Republika Srpska ordered the expulsion of all Croats and Bosniaks from the Banja Luka area,[179] and 22,000 refugees fled to Croatia by the end of August."

(linked sources available)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

We slowly turn this thread into a pure Balkan discussion :eek:

Edited July 16, 2015 by oxmox

[Degman 73]

Russia, Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina General :D

[srbknight 925]

You sure you can list credible sources for those numbers that are not, you know, bullshit?

i know Croatian friend the truth is hurt everyone who is involved in her !

[srbknight 925]

Russian air force order of 169 Su-34 to be increased to 225 aircrafts

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201507161527-elba.htm

Russian air force in last 3 weeks had over 5 crashes the ministry of defense said that they have arrested 16 people covered with the "sabotage" on the aircraft's the 7 people died in air crashes

Russian ministry of defense said that the main suspect of Omsk base sabotage was Kiril Olishenko the commander of the base when 26 cadets died !

[SaOk 112]

Its not very reliable to read news from sites that are owned by goverment or ministry of defence. That is just common sense. The idea of press is to get objective articles made by independent people. Else its just advertising or propaganda.

Edited July 16, 2015 by SaOk

[mistyronin 1181]

(BBC) EU warning over Russia 'land grab' in South Ossetia border row

The EU has warned of increased tensions amid claims that Russia has redrawn a section of Georgia's de facto border with South Ossetia.

Georgia says Russian troops installed signs marking the "state border" of the breakaway region of South Ossetia further inside Georgian territory.

The move has left a small portion of the Baku-Supsa oil pipeline under Russia's effective control.

Russia has brushed off accusations about its role.

Its troops have been patrolling the administrative border since the 2008 Russian-Georgian war over South Ossetia.

An EU foreign policy spokesperson said the installation of new signposts "had led to tension in the area, with potentially negative effects on the local population, their livelihood and freedom of movement".

(The Guardian) Georgia accuses Russia of violating international law over South Ossetia

Georgia has accused Russia of violating international law after it erected new “border†markings in the disputed South Ossetia region, effectively seizing part of a BP-operated oil pipeline in the process.

While European leaders were focused on resolving the Greek crisis over the weekend, Russian troops were installing the new signs, pushing their self-declared border several hundred metres deeper into Georgian territory.

“We’ve lost most of our fields,†said a farmer from Tsitelubani, one of the villages in central Georgia affected by the move. “The Russians said we are no longer allowed there.â€

According to Georgia’s foreign ministry, the move means that a one-mile (1.5km) section of the Baku-Supsa pipeline beneath this farmland is now in what it called occupied territory.

- - -

Russian air force in last 3 weeks had over 5 crashes the ministry of defense said that they have arrested 16 people covered with the "sabotage" on the aircraft's the 7 people died in air crashes

Is anyone fool enough to believe that? :j:

[srbknight 925]

Its not very reliable to read news from sites that are owned by goverment or ministry of defence. That is just common sense. The idea of press is to get objective articles made by independent people. Else its just advertising or propaganda.

you want to say that i should believe other sources the TvZvezda is channel of Russian ministry of defense dude?!

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

(BBC) EU warning over Russia 'land grab' in South Ossetia border row

(The Guardian) Georgia accuses Russia of violating international law over South Ossetia

- - -

Is anyone fool enough to believe that? :j:

Seems to me only for western side this message should go ?! P.S. i know you love Russia just you can't accept it !

Edited July 16, 2015 by SRBKnight

[mistyronin 1181]

Seems to me only for western side this message should go ?!

I don't understand any of that. :confused:

P.S. i know you love Russia just you can't accept it !

Don't be absurd. The current Russian Gov. and their manipulated press doesn't equal at all to what Russia is.

But yes, I actually love Russia and its incredible history and culture (I already said a few times, that's why I created this thread).