Is fatigue system realistic? Fact based discussion

[d3nn16 3]

Hello,

I created a PvP mission and I haven't done any modifications to the ArmA 3 fatigue system. As a consequence players started to complain because some other missions use some kind of fatigue reduction / tweaking.

This discussion is not about whether the fatigue system is good for gameplay (because I think "gamepaly" it is too vast subject to discuss about and will not give me the answer I am looking for) or about whether you like playing with it or not.

I want to know your opinion about how far is the fatigue system from an ideal "fatigue system" that is closest to reality according to your belief and facts you are aware of.

The poll has 3 options:

1) too easy = overall soldier fatigue is too small compared to what happens in the real world and must be fixed

2) balanced = fatigue system is realistic enough and it doesn't need any major fixing

3) too hard = overall soldier fatigue is too much compared to what happens in the real world and must be fixed

Please provide facts in this discussion with the following method:

1) provide ArmA 3 test results

2) provide real world test results

For both cases provide test parameters and result:

A) distance in meters

B) terrain (flat, hill, etc)

C) running (running, sprinting, walking, combat pace)

D) weapon (rifle, handgun, launcher, lowered, raised, etc)

E) weight (value returned by loadAbs or kg)

F) gear (weapons, items, magazines, uniforms, backpacks, etc)

RESULT: value of "getFatigue player" and./or appreciation of fatigue state (speed, aiming, weapon sway, etc)

Here is an example of a test done in ArmA 3 (I used kg = loadAbs / 9.82 formula for weight):

BASIC TEST - common gear #1

===========================

A) 1220m (from [14382.7,15896.5,0.00143814] to [15235.6,16769.8,0.00143814] on Altis airport)

B) flat

C) sprint

D) no weapon

E) 124 loadAbs (12.63 kg)

F) gear: "U_O_SpecopsUniform_ocamo" + map + radio + watch + compass + uav terminal + binocular

RESULT: 23% fatigue

BASIC TEST - common gear #2

===========================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) no weapon

E) 84 loadAbs (8.55 kg)

F) gear: "U_I_CombatUniform" + map + radio + watch + compass + uav terminal + binocular

RESULT: 21% fatigue

ASSAULT SOLDIER #1

==================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) lowered rifle

E) 482 loadAbs (49.1 kg)

F) gear:

["arifle_MX_GL_Black_F","hgun_P07_F","Laserdesignator"],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","HandGrenade","HandGrenade","SmokeShell","SmokeShellGreen",

"Laserbatteries","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_Smoke_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_SmokeGreen_Grenade_shell"],

["","","optic_Hamr"],[],["","",""],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_mag"],[],["16Rnd_9x21_Mag"],

["FirstAidKit"],

["ItemMap","ItemCompass","ItemWatch","ItemRadio","ItemGPS","Laserdesignator"],

"U_I_CombatUniform_shortsleeve","V_PlateCarrierIA1_dgtl","","H_HelmetSpecB_paint1",""]

RESULT: 91% fatigue (60% fatigue after around half the distance ~600m)

ASSAULT SOLDIER #2

==================

A) same as before

B) same as before

C) same as before

D) lowered rifle

E) 552 loadAbs (56.2 kg)

F) gear:

["arifle_Katiba_GL_F","hgun_Rook40_F","Laserdesignator"],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","16Rnd_9x21_Mag","HandGrenade","HandGrenade","SmokeShell","SmokeShellGreen",

"Laserbatteries","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_HE_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_Smoke_Grenade_shell","1Rnd_SmokeGreen_Grenade_shell"],

["","","optic_Arco"],[],["","",""],

["30Rnd_65x39_caseless_green"],[],["16Rnd_9x21_Mag"],

["FirstAidKit"],

["ItemMap","ItemCompass","ItemWatch","ItemRadio","ItemGPS","Laserdesignator"],

"U_O_CombatUniform_ocamo","V_PlateCarrier1_blk","","H_HelmetLeaderO_ocamo",""];

RESULT: 97% fatigue (60% fatigue after around half the distance ~600m)

Edited December 20, 2014 by d3nn16

[Greenfist 1863]

If you want to monitor the fatigue and its factors, here's my script: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?168240-Fatigue-Feedback-(dev-branch)&p=2810105&viewfull=1#post2810105 (a good thread about the fatigue, by the way)

I'd love to compare the game to real life test results but unfortunately right now I don't have my "U_I_CombatUniform_shortsleeve" and ["","","optic_Arco"] handy to test them. ;)

[TSAndrey 1]

It shouldn't be realistic, this is a game. There's no fun in the current system.

[the_demongod 31]

It shouldn't be realistic, this is a game. There's no fun in the current system.

Actually this game is supposed to be realistic (at least more so than any other FPS) and that's kind of the entire point of playing Arma. So good fatigue management should be challenging as it is in real life when carrying a heavy load.

I've never really had difficulty with the fatigue system, with a regular rifleman loadout it's easy to keep your fatigue below 10% at all times outside of intense combat, all you have to do is keep your weapon lowered and walk for a few seconds when you start to get too tired. It's not rocket science.

If anything, I think they've gone too easy on us because they don't simulate longer-term fatigue. You can sprint up and down a hill as many times as you want, resting at the bottom to regain you fatigue between each run and your performance will never change. In real life, you would very quickly begin to have muscle fatigue and this would last for minutes if not hours. However, it is a game and they can't require people to rest for hours on end to regain stamina so I can understand their wanting to leave this out.

[giorgygr 61]

I really wanted to see such an discussion about crazy-sway mini game :/

For me fatigue it is balanced-and it doesnt cause any major problems-although it should have

follow the *new flight model concept.

Along with the Crazy sway it should have been per-User selection on or off from game's menu with the ability

to enforce it on a mission.

Edited November 9, 2014 by GiorgyGR

[eggbeast 3673]

may be useful: from ex-soldiers POV - a lot of us discussed this when ACE added it in A2... I trained in the royal marines reserves, and we could run 9 miles alternately carrying a full sized, fully webbed man on our backs, and a weapon (in my case a heavy-ass SLR), or being carried (which was worse, think shoulder into diaphragm). at periodic intervals our corporal would shout grenade, and we would drop the guy and hit the floor (mud, puddles, thornbushes, whatever) and start crawling, then he'd shout return fire and we'd ready weapons, then he'd get us up and running again, then pick up casualty and resume... we did this at full tilt through frozen ponds, thornbushes, whatever, now a lot of other guys i play arma with also trained like this and many served in combat.

Our general feeling is that:

a) fatigue for running about with a pack weight is absolutely pointless and irrelevant to a soldier in anything under 9 miles of distance, although limiting sprinting without rest to 400m might make sense

b) however, once you're under fire you can sometimes pant like a bitch in heat due to the adrenalin flooding through your veins. this can be very random. suppression-based fatigue is therefore a great idea. so if you get suppressed, you have a good chance to go adrenal... at this point calling out your oppo to return fire is the only sensible choice, or lobbing a nade, or withdrawing, or steeling yourself for a suicidal rush (and potential medal!)

so i dunno, i think the mechanism could do with some work to improve it. anyway hope it helps.

[-Coulum- 35]

may be useful: from ex-soldiers POV - a lot of us discussed this when ACE added it in A2... I trained in the royal marines reserves, and we could run 9 miles alternately carrying a full sized, fully webbed man on our backs, and a weapon (in my case a heavy-ass SLR), or being carried (which was worse, think shoulder into diaphragm). at periodic intervals our corporal would shout grenade, and we would drop the guy and hit the floor (mud, puddles, thornbushes, whatever) and start crawling, then he'd shout return fire and we'd ready weapons, then he'd get us up and running again, then pick up casualty and resume... we did this at full tilt through frozen ponds, thornbushes, whatever, now a lot of other guys i play arma with also trained like this and many served in combat.

That's pretty impressive stuff. How long did it take you to complete the 9 miles? I am interested to test if you can do comparable feats in arma - but I would need to know the duration of the run to figure that out. Of course in arma you can't carry anybody over your back... but I am sure you could simulate a similar situation by loading up the solder extensively. And what do you mean by "full tilt"? When discussing the fatigue system I hear alot of stuff like "full tilt" "full out sprint the entire time" etc. but it is unclear what that actually means. Are you saying you sprinted the entire 9 miles? Like at the same speed you would sprint 100m? There must have been some form of pacing...?

Overall the fatigue system in itself isn't "realistic". It just doesn't even begin to resemble how a person fatigues through both anaerobic and aerobic activity. But I am quite happy because it does produce fairly realistic limitations on players and encourages more realistic actions/thinking/planning. Gone are the days where you load up on every weapon and ammo just because you can. Gone are the days of fully loaded guys running and gunning with ease, or sprinting to objectives.

So basically the mechanics and simulation isn't realsitic, but the results are quite realistic - that works for me.

I see no reason to dilute or change it right now, it serves its purpose well. If anything its a bit easy on the player for the reason The_Demongod poinnted out - there is no long term build up of fatigue. But I think that generally that is for the better

[St. Jimmy 272]

Balanced or bit too easy for heavier equipment but overall it works nicely. Sometimes I've wondered if the mission even has it disabled but quick test always shows that there it is ;) You can jog pretty far without a penalty with a reasonal equipment.

[BL1P 35]

I would say balanced.

Gun down jog to cover distances.

Walk gun up to clear areas .

Run from cover to cover.

Sprint when ya getting shot at or to move to cover under fire.

Or as I do when under fire... Panic like a bitch run in a circle, press vault instead of gun up all while screaming "CONTACT !!!" over the radio, then die.

[TSAndrey 1]

Actually this game is supposed to be realistic (at least more so than any other FPS) and that's kind of the entire point of playing Arma. So good fatigue management should be challenging as it is in real life when carrying a heavy load.

It's a more realistic military sandbox, not a fatigue simulator. I don't care if it's realistic, a game should be fun. I agree, there should be some penalty for carrying heavier loadouts, but this is too much.

[eggbeast 3673]

troops don't notice the weight unless its really hot. i mean they do, but they don't let on lol.

full tilt you do with a man on your back simulating rescuing a casualty in the open etc.

9 mile run with webbing and rifle - aim is to finish in 1.5hrs, with some beasting thrown in.

typical marine run is fast march, jog, fast march ,jog... can keep this up in full kit for 40+ miles and still be fresh for battle at the end.

falklands yomp is typical example of that - 45 miles in arctic conditions with full kit, then fight a long battle at the end.

fatigue schmatigue lol

but fair enough you dont want every soldier in game a clone of each other with a DMR and a SMAW... that sucks balls.

[Dirtylarry 10]

Run 150 meter and your character is totally done, he can't even aim when his life depends on it.

It is not that hard to run 150 meter, stop and aim standing and hit your target. if you hold your breath you shouldn't be moving as much as we do now.

[Jona33 51]

Run 150 meter and your character is totally done, he can't even aim when his life depends on it.

It is not that hard to run 150 meter, stop and aim standing and hit your target. if you hold your breath you shouldn't be moving as much as we do now.

Ha, bullshit.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?168240-Fatigue-Feedback-(dev-branch)&p=2809777&viewfull=1#post2809777

If you want to change the fatigue system fine but don't try and do it through outright lies.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Run 150 meter and your character is totally done, he can't even aim when his life depends on it.

It is not that hard to run 150 meter, stop and aim standing and hit your target. if you hold your breath you shouldn't be moving as much as we do now.

Fact based discussion...

[firemane 0]

At this point I've been in the US ARMY for almost 14 years. Half of that in the infantry, and most of it as a combat or combat support leader.

The fatigue system in A3 feels pretty accurate to me. So much so that I didn't even notice when it was rolled out. I was already moving and gearing up in accordance to my RL training.

The standard fighting load for an infantry soldier averages 15.8 to 20.4 Kg (35-45 lbs). More than that and you're paying a heavy price in terms of endurance and effectiveness. The gear list will usually entails a helmet, personal weapon + basic ammo load (300rd for the rifleman), double plate carrier with plates, one MRE, two frag grenades (if issued), 2 quarts of water and some assorted small items that are usually not counted.

Backpacks are usually left on the vehicles or left at a staging point if you are patrolling on foot. It is not the same to run around with a pack in a training environment as to actually fight with one. They unbalance you badly, add to the back pain generated by the body armor, and add greatly to your fatigue. Not to mention that they swing around, get you stuck in narrow spaces and fences, and generally fight you all the way. To go into combat with a heavy pack is generally considered a rookie mistake. It is like trying to work with a monkey on your back.

Loads in excess of 20 Kg are possible but are not recommended for a combat environment. Loads in excess of 27 Kg (60 Lbs) are typically used only during administrative movements when you are away from the enemy. Loads in excess of 35 Kg (80 lbs) are considered excessive and only carried when there is no viable alternative.

Moderate exercise in hot weather with a standard load (15.8-20.4 Kg/35-45 lbs) can be sustained by a well conditioned soldiers for periods of up to 20 hours (with proper rest breaks @ 15min/hour) a day for up to 8 days. However, moving around with that kind of weight, specially during actual fighting, will have you breathing hard within a few minutes and its sustainable only if you pace yourself. Most tactical movements and fighting are done at a walking pace or at the standard military 8 min/mile pace. If you start sprinting everywhere you will spend yourself pretty fast.

Sprinting or fighting with a 45 Kg load is just not viable. Not only will you start running into all sorts of problems (orthopedic pains, blisters, etc...), but your soldiers will be pretty much exhausted in the first two hours. More than that and your unit will lose cohesion and have a trail of stragglers a kilometer long.

If you want to fight like a pro in ARMA you need to gear up like a pro. If you want to win in ARMA you have to plan like a pro.

[Westonsammy 1]

I think the issue people have with the new fatigue system is, after being pampered by ArmA 2's system of "Sprint all the time unless shooting", they haven't yet adapted to the new playstyle that fatigue enforces.

I noticed people on my server complaining about how unrealistic the new fatigue system was, then watched as the constantly sprinted from building to building every 2 seconds, and then tried to shoot accurately at hostiles.

The point is, for the fatigue system to feel realistic, you have to move realistically. No normal human beings runs at full speed everywhere, even in combat. And in combat you sure as hell aren't switching firing positions every 5 seconds.

[-Coulum- 35]

troops don't notice the weight unless its really hot. i mean they do, but they don't let on lol.

full tilt you do with a man on your back simulating rescuing a casualty in the open etc.

9 mile run with webbing and rifle - aim is to finish in 1.5hrs, with some beasting thrown in.

Haven't tested this (and its kind of hard because there is no way to carry people ingame), but I am willing to bet you could achieve the same pace in arma with an extremely loaded player. But maybe I speak to soon. When I get time I will have to try it out.

can keep this up in full kit for 40+ miles and still be fresh for battle at the end.

falklands yomp is typical example of that - 45 miles in arctic conditions with full kit, then fight a long battle at the end.

[/Quote]

This is possible even with the fatigue system.

but fair enough you dont want every soldier in game a clone of each other with a DMR and a SMAW... that sucks balls.

Yes indeed.

The point is, for the fatigue system to feel realistic, you have to move realistically. No normal human beings runs at full speed everywhere, even in combat. And in combat you sure as hell aren't switching firing positions every 5 seconds.

Totally agree. I donn't think it is only arma 2 that is the bad influence though but rather every run and gun fps (basically any other fps.) I think arma 3 is the first game ever to really make fatigue a real factor ingame that needs to be managed and balanced. Realistic or not, its going to get some getting used to for many fps players. The way I work around it is simply to imagine what I would do if I were in the situation in real life. When I do that, I rarely notice fatigue.

If you want to fight like a pro in ARMA you need to gear up like a pro. If you want to win in ARMA you have to plan like a pro.

Couldn't have said it better.

[PlacidPaul 11]

The current system is great, seems realistic and is fun. Seems similar to playing with ace2, without the falling down blackouts. It is easy for alot of people to have trouble realizing how far they just ran though, the game world doesnt always translate.

The pace that you need to play with in the current system fits, because going fast will get you killed anyways. If you dont like it, try having a slower pace, youll be better for it, and enjoy the game more.

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ----------

The way I work around it is simply to imagine what I would do if I were in the situation in real life.

This so true, its also how to have the most fun in arma, and be most effective, forget about your gun for awhile, youll enjoy the game more.

[bignewy 10]

Fatigue system is ridiculous in arma 3, as a ex infantry soldier our fitness levels were way better than ingame. Now the arma 3 soldiers are like me 40 year old ex army with lung problems. If a soldier was that unfit I would have shot him myself.

ps can someone link me to how to remove it completely

[Night 1]

I feel like fatigue is too punishing. As an unfit person who was in reasonably good shape a few years ago, Even now I can run 2 kilometers at a steady pace before I start to feel like im going to die. I haven't trained or exercised in a long time. I think a solider who is in the midst of it all every day should have no problems running with gear and not getting instantly fatigued.

I feel like it needs tweaking. :/

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Fuck people won't stop bitching about this until they can carry around 10 titan rockets and run forever will they

[fareast 20]

And zafir

[enex 11]

I have a feeling that majority of people who disagree with fatigue have yet to try out:

a: lowering weapon (2x Ctr)

b:alternate between jogging and walking (which you do when you spot black flash on the sides) (S + W)

c: pressing C while weapon down to alternative between combat paces

d:use sprint in combat (shift)

e:drop ruck if you are stopping to rest

f:taking into account what do you carry

g:take into count where do you travel (uphill exhaust you/downhill regain you)

[slim_pikins 12]

Or as I do when under fire... Panic like a bitch run in a circle, press vault instead of gun up all while screaming "CONTACT !!!" over the radio, then die.

Oh hi Bl1p thought I recognized you :p

[vegeta897 13]

I have a feeling that majority of people who disagree with fatigue have yet to try out:

a: lowering weapon (2x Ctr)

b:alternate between jogging and walking (which you do when you spot black flash on the sides) (S + W)

c: pressing C while weapon down to alternative between combat paces

d:use sprint in combat (shift)

e:drop ruck if you are stopping to rest

f:taking into account what do you carry

g:take into count where do you travel (uphill exhaust you/downhill regain you)

Good post.

Survive, Adapt, Win