Islamic State (ISIS/ISIL/Daesh) Discussion

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

that's what I thought, which is the reason why I mentioned markets.

Corporations are not happy when there is a war. Wars are risk; not good for investments, not good for trade.

 

Depends what type of corporation, and also where it is doing business.

 

For instance lots of (civil) wars tend to have international corporate backers, usually for the side that promises to do business with them after the dust clears.

 

Risk itself is not bad, and if there is high reward (weak domestic competition in the newly 'liberated' market) then the risk may be justified.

[Nicholas 5]

I was surprised to see that this has not been posted, but they have killed a Chinese and Norwegian hostage.  Both countries have condemned the killing with China vowing revenge.  I guess you could say that all of the world super powers are now involved with these terrorists.

 

Beijing vows justice as ISIS kills Chinese, Norwegian hostages - CNN

Beijing vows justice after ISIS executes only known Chinese hostage - Business Insider

And Now ISIS Takes on China - The Daily Beast

China declares war on ISIS after terrorists claim to have executed Chinese hostage - The Daily Mirror

[dontknowhow 33]

I was surprised to see that this has not been posted, but they have killed a Chinese and Norwegian hostage.  Both countries have condemned the killing with China vowing revenge.  I guess you could say that all of the world super powers are now involved with these terrorists.

 

Beijing vows justice as ISIS kills Chinese, Norwegian hostages - CNN

Beijing vows justice after ISIS executes only known Chinese hostage - Business Insider

And Now ISIS Takes on China - The Daily Beast

China declares war on ISIS after terrorists claim to have executed Chinese hostage - The Daily Mirror

There also were other Chinese killed in Mali.

Doesn't look like the Chinese are moving. After all, they had a very limited damage abroad, and the mess is already big enough.

[negah 26]

First sorties from the Charles de Gaulle against ISIS were launched today, France can increase the intensity of its attacks against the terrorists now.

[ProfTournesol 956]

First sorties from the Charles de Gaulle against ISIS were launched today, France can increase the intensity of its attacks against the terrorists now.

 

Yup, up to 38 planes (26 on the Aircraft carrier). Not much but still something.

 

Beautiful plane, though :

 

[ProfTournesol 956]

(BBC NEWS) Turkey 'down Russian warplane on Syria border' : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34907983

Has Turkey definitely sided with IS ?

[spooky lynx 73]

(BBC NEWS) Turkey 'down Russian warplane on Syria border' : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34907983

Has Turkey definitely sided with IS ?

Seems you are right. Let's wait for NATO statement about it.

[dontknowhow 33]

(BBC NEWS) Turkey 'down Russian warplane on Syria border' : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34907983

Has Turkey definitely sided with IS ?

lol how about the Turks getting sick of Russians planes coming into their airspace? Or maybe they are just sick of Russian planes bombing moderate rebels

[ProfTournesol 956]

lol how about the Turks getting sick of Russians planes coming into their airspace? Or maybe they are just sick of Russian planes bombing moderate rebels

When Turkey will actually do something against IS (ie stop financing and trade between Turkey and IS), and not only doing things against those fighting them (PKK for example), then yes, i could believe what you wrote. Until then, i would consider Erdogan as an objective ally of Daesh, with a common enemy (The Kurds).

[dontknowhow 33]

When Turkey will actually do something against IS (ie stop financing and trade between Turkey and IS), and not only doing things against those fighting them (PKK for example), then yes, i could believe what you wrote. Until then, i would consider Erdogan as an objective ally of Daesh, with a common enemy (The Kurds).

Oh, that. Yes, in that sense Turkey is a bit of a problem. They should give the Kurds some slack, but the Kurds have been a big problem in Turkey for a very long time, and Erdogan is not exactly known for his flexibility. I have to say that he has sort of a point. They should all calm down, and they won't.

But saying that Erdogan is an ally of the psychopaths goes maybe a bit too far.

[carlostex 38]

When Turkey will actually do something against IS (ie stop financing and trade between Turkey and IS), and not only doing things against those fighting them (PKK for example), then yes, i could believe what you wrote. Until then, i would consider Erdogan as an objective ally of Daesh, with a common enemy (The Kurds).

 

 

 While i agree with you 100% on this that doesn't justify Russia sending its bombers to violate Turkish airspace. This is apparently not the first time it happens and Turkey warn them before. So those Russian planes should be hammering IS positions instead of being sent in useless childish provocations.

 

Think about the Russian pilot who lost his life because of stupid orders and think of his family. 

 

Striked the upper comment has it is not confirmed a pilot died after all.

[vilas 477]

Erdogan kids were prescribed in journalist long ago, 

his daughter is volunteer in hospital healing jihadists, his son was also prescribed by press too

they probably support jihad ideology 

 

 

but the Kurds have been a big problem in Turkey for a very long time

cause since Ottoman Empire time Turkey was enslaving other nations ? 

it is like saying in year 1900 that Russia, Prussia has problem with Poles since century - question what Russia and Prussia in year 1900 do on territory of Poland since 1790s  ;)

it is not Kurds being problem IN TURKEY

it is problem that since Ottoman Empire Turkish administration been in areas that was other nation area (but occupied)

 

in times of big empires (XVII-XX centuries) there were few big empires who were occupying countless nations, 

empires fallen after WW1, but not all nations get independence 

 

borders in some regions are artificially prescribed on maps either by countries that were established after colonial divisions of lands (some nations cut in half) or after fall of empires (also cutting some nations in half) 

ideal borderlines drawn by ethnic structure do not appear outside western Europe (where those borders are similar since milenium and differ only a little ) 

 

2 stonger countries like Turkey (post Ottoman) and Persia (now Iran) divided Kurds, but remember that Iraq also was under Ottoman Empire rule

map from 1914

Kurds on 1986 map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Kurdish-inhabited_areas_of_the_Middle_East_and_the_Soviet_Union_in_1986.jpg

[spooky lynx 73]

 While i agree with you 100% on this that doesn't justify Russia sending its bombers to violate Turkish airspace. This is apparently not the first time it happens and Turkey warn them before. So those Russian planes should be hammering IS positions instead of being sent in useless childish provocations.

What if those IS positions are made just across the border? And on the other side, French, US planes violate Syrian airspace while striking IS positions, and...? Does anybody care? I think when it comes to fighting IS, there should not be any fuss about airspace violation. Because that's not some excercises or provocations.

[pulstar 55]

(BBC NEWS) Turkey 'down Russian warplane on Syria border' : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34907983

Has Turkey definitely sided with IS ?

 

You're so full of shit. Anyway Putin can't do anything if indeed it's proven they violated Turkish airspace.

 

Unlike Syria and its puppet canton Lebanon Turkey does protect its airspace. Assad doesn't dare fire a pellet at israeli fighters.

[sudayev 27]

hot info from sources on twitter.

 

-Pilots from Su24 catapulted themselves. First pilot is dead (vid on liveleak) while the second has been captured (speculated) FSA units.

 

- Russian gunships are attacking ground targets close to Turkish-Syrian border.

[pulstar 55]

But saying that Erdogan is an ally of the psychopaths goes maybe a bit too far.

Isiz are useful idiots to some regional players, so they make use of them. Let's not forget a powerful nation was even accused of making strategic airdrops in their stronghold :rolleyes:

[ProfTournesol 956]

Oh, that. Yes, in that sense Turkey is a bit of a problem. They should give the Kurds some slack, but the Kurds have been a big problem in Turkey for a very long time, and Erdogan is not exactly known for his flexibility. I have to say that he has sort of a point. They should all calm down, and they won't.

But saying that Erdogan is an ally of the psychopaths goes maybe a bit too far.

True, a bit too far. But Erdogan has succeeded where Morsi has failed in Egypt, taking power and keeping it while muzzling the Army that used to be defending turkish secularity. Now IS is the only effective counter power to Iran influence in Irak and Syria, and Erdogan knows that perfectly. But he's playing with fire.

[carlostex 38]

What if those IS positions are made just across the border? And on the other side, French, US planes violate Syrian airspace while striking IS positions, and...? Does anybody care? I think when it comes to fighting IS, there should not be any fuss about airspace violation. Because that's not some excercises or provocations.

 

If IS positions are on Turkish soil its Turkish jurisdiction. And stop with that bullshit because we know that IS claims territory in Syrian an Iraq. Do you think that politicians in Russia don't know that any attack inside NATO members territory would imply a response from other NATO members? 

 

You jump in defence of Russia because you think i'm attacking Russia. French, US and RUSSIAN planes bomb IS positions in Syria but we know its a totally different situation. 

 

There should not be any fuss about airspace violation but if the US would bomb IS positions inside Russia you would absolutely love that US or any NATO country was flying inside Russian territory? Lolz... 

 

 

Get over it, this is not the first time Russia violated Turkish territory, and Turkey warned Russia before. This is the fault of stupid politicians decisions, and because of this Russian and Turkish pilots lives are put at stake.

 

Why did Russian SU-30's were painting (air to air lock) Turkish F-16's when the Turkish jets were well inside their territory? Navigation problem like Russian officials claim? Seriously?

 

Maybe Russia should stop entering other countries airspace and it would even avoid disrupting civilian flights like on October 26th my brother in law flight got delayed because of Russian TU-XX incursions inside British airspace. 

 

Both stories:

 

Russia:

- SU-24 was on Syrian airspace;

- It was shot from the ground;

- We can prove it didn't violate Turkish airspace;

 

Turkey;

- Our F-16's shot down SU-24;

- We warned them 10 times and no answer;

- It was inside our airspace;

[spooky lynx 73]

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/669098577524822016

Tracking of Su-24 flight. The length of its flight in Turkish territory is about 2 km - some seconds of flight. So... did Turks really manage to ask several times to leave their airspace during this seconds?

[Eight Ball 16]

lol how about the Turks getting sick of Russians planes coming into their airspace? Or maybe they are just sick of Russian planes bombing moderate rebels

It's not like Tu-95 were flying above Ankara with their bomb bay open...

 

 

Take a look at the area in Google maps, that strip of land is roughly 3 Km wide.

If the aircraft flight path in the 1st map is true, it looks like the Su-24 was shot down when it was  no longer above Turkey.

[ProfTournesol 956]

[carlostex 38]

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/669098577524822016

Tracking of Su-24 flight. The length of its flight in Turkish territory is about 2 km - some seconds of flight. So... did Turks really manage to ask several times to leave their airspace during this seconds?

 

Wait CNN? So now sources from imperialistic western media controlled by evil US shills is to trust? 

 

Seriously now. If the source is accurate Turkish airspace was indeed violated. 

 

So was Turkish airspace really violated? Russia says no! If SU-24 never entered Turkish airspace F-16's should have never took a shot at it, so it's Turkey fault. But Russia MOD says that it didn't enter Turkish airspace and it was shot from the ground. So FSA shot SU-24 with MANPADS? Or was it ISIS? Russia claims the Fencer was flying at 6000 meters. As you can see there are lots of information and misinformation that contradicts itself. Reminds me when the Malaysian airliner was shot over Ukraine. 

 

For me, i think the truth is in the middle. I think the Turks have been ready the last few days for something like this to happen and took a shot at first opportunity, and the Russian MOD thought the Turks were pussies that wouldn't dare to fire on their aircraft and kept on with the same provocations and violations it has been doing the past weeks.

 

Again this is result of stupid politics and because of that pilots lost their lives because they were following stupid orders. And now it can be that other pilots on both sides might lose their lives on butt-hurt border clashes between TuAF and RuAF.

[dontknowhow 33]

Isiz are useful idiots to some regional players, so they make use of them. Let's not forget a powerful nation was even accused of making strategic airdrops in their stronghold :rolleyes:

I'm not quite sure it actually went exactly that way, but I have to say that I don't get the point.

 

True, a bit too far. But Erdogan has succeeded where Morsi has failed in Egypt, taking power and keeping it while muzzling the Army that used to be defending turkish secularity. Now IS is the only effective counter power to Iran influence in Irak and Syria, and Erdogan knows that perfectly. But he's playing with fire.

Erdogan is an idiot, but he has a lot of support in his country. And I don't think that support is forced, unfortunately.

Turks are Sunni Muslims, and it's known that there is some support for ISIS. But Turkey itself is a moderate Islamic country, and I don't think Erdogan is happy with ISIS, if that's what you mean.

 

It's not like Tu-95 were flying above Ankara with their bomb bay open...

And that would be a good reason to let things go? It is not the first time this happens, and according to the Turks there have been 10 warnings in 10 minutes ops, 5 minutes.

I do wonder how it works in these cases though. I think the next step after warnings is a radar lock on. I am not sure this is correct, and I don't know if that happened. The Russians didn't complain about that though.

[St. Jimmy 272]

It's not like Tu-95 were flying above Ankara with their bomb bay open...

 

map pic

 

Take a look at the area in Google maps, that strip of land is roughly 3 Km wide.

If the aircraft flight path in the 1st map is true, it looks like the Su-24 was shot down when it was  no longer above Turkey.

I see those maps everywhere but nothing explains what all the lines are? Did the plane go over the border two times or what is the other line??

[semiconductor 309]

Seriously now. If the source is accurate Turkish airspace was indeed violated.

That doesn't change the fact the Turkey have extremely screwed up. Even if the shoot down was justified by the international law, it certainly wasn't justified by the basic common sense because the only winning party in all this is ISIL (and probably personally Putin, for a very small extent).

By shooting that lone bomber that didn't try to advance further into Turkish territory and was on a mission in which international community claims to be interested, Turkey have put itself into a tough political situation, it have put NATO in even tougher position, it most likely prevented the creation of anti-ISIL coalition, it created a situation in which a war between Russia and NATO might actually happen because Russia has an actual semi-legit reason to retaliate, it will most likely lose all economic and political ties with Russia and Kurds will probably start to receive a substantial support on a regular basis from an unknown friend.

Turkey not just basically screwed international interests and joined the war on the wrong side, it also turned NATO into literally ISIL's very own air defence forces. I bet it felt nice for al-Baghdadi to have the most powerful ADF in the world on his side, even if for a couple of minutes.

 

And all this for what, exactly? For momentary feeling of national pride? Heh, a wise decision indeed.

 

But yeah, they probably had a right to do so, just like anybody can try to kick neighbour's angry doberman from their lawn shoud he wonder there chasing a squrell... and their family might even get a hefty compensation from doberman's owner so it won't go bankrupt after lawn defender's lavish funeral.