Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[DancZer 65]

why would holding your breath affect the weight or size of a weapon. it makes no sense. holding your breath should temporarily reduce weapon sway (aka the up and down movement) but if you keep moving your weapon around then inertia comes into play.

Who talk about the weight or size of the weapon?

As you say, it should reduce the sway. I skipped the part "while player not moving, turning" from my previous post.

[alsanjuro 20]

90% of the time i use assault rifles and if you see in the bottom left of my video i have stamina bar mod running and you will see i have none of the fatigue which makes it a problem for me. Even if i start to me a few feet and aim with my gun it just starts to bounce like in the video. I do love the fatigue that was implemented cause i hate people that carry LMG with 10 mags plus launcher and bunch of rockets. I do not like run and gunning cause i like preserving my ammo so i do not need to carry tens of mags like some people that i play with. I just makes it very unplayable for me and I love ARMA 3 I did put nearly 1300 hours for nothing. Yeah when i press to hold breath i should be able to aim and keep my weapon on the target and looks like AI dont have as much problem shooting back accurately.

[twisted 127]

Like danczer said, holding breath in Arma doesn't just mean stopping breathing, it's also tensing your muscles; struggling to hold the gun steady, which is something you don't constantly do when just casually swinging your weapon.

That sideways sway looks like fatigue sway. I don't remember it looking the same when you're not exhausted. :confused:

hey man, i hear what you are saying... but to be a stickler for detail you cant really tense your msucles to hold a gun steady. you can tuck it more into your shoulder, but you still breath and things move. Thats something BIS captures pretty well. . in fact if you had to try and hold a gun steady by tensing your muslces (aka Rambo) you'd end up swaying all over the place pretty fast. Not sure why im getting into this cray cray conversation so I'm over and out for a bit.

[Bouben 3]

90% of the time i use assault rifles and if you see in the bottom left of my video i have stamina bar mod running and you will see i have none of the fatigue which makes it a problem for me. Even if i start to me a few feet and aim with my gun it just starts to bounce like in the video. I do love the fatigue that was implemented cause i hate people that carry LMG with 10 mags plus launcher and bunch of rockets. I do not like run and gunning cause i like preserving my ammo so i do not need to carry tens of mags like some people that i play with. I just makes it very unplayable for me and I love ARMA 3 I did put nearly 1300 hours for nothing. Yeah when i press to hold breath i should be able to aim and keep my weapon on the target and looks like AI dont have as much problem shooting back accurately.

I agree that a weapon in Arma can get a bit too unstable even after few steps when fully rested. I think I can agree with you that there should be less "shakiness" when a soldier is fully rested.

UPDATE:

OK, the problem I identified is that if you make just a few steps sideways when fully rested, your weapon gets a lot of horizontal sway that takes a bit too long to stop. I think it should be reduced a bit so that you have more control over your weapon when fully rested. Then more fatigue should mean gradually less control over your weapon and more pronounced inertia effects.

EDIT:

But overall the feeling is now really great. I really feel the weight of my avatar in the game. The movement is solid yet a bit clunky which I really enjoy. It stopped that feeling of an ordinary FPS game. Great job BIS.

EDIT2:

Machineguns definitely needs more inertia. They are too easily controllable.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Bouben

[Gutsnav 13]

Never "muscle it" onto target. It just makes the sway worse. A lot of muscle tension causes inaccuracy, and adds a bit to the fatigue of your arms. Relax, take a few deep breaths, and slowly release the air from your lungs. Then boom. Shooting 101 here guys

[Bouben 3]

Never "muscle it" onto target. It just makes the sway worse. A lot of muscle tension causes inaccuracy, and adds a bit to the fatigue of your arms. Relax, take a few deep breaths, and slowly release the air from your lungs. Then boom. Shooting 101 here guys

Are you talking about CQB? I guess not.

[Greenfist 1863]

OK, the problem I identified is that if you make just a few steps sideways when fully rested, your weapon gets a lot of horizontal sway that takes a bit too long to stop. I think it should be reduced a bit so that you have more control over your weapon when fully rested. Then more fatigue should mean gradually less control over your weapon and more pronounced inertia effects.

Yeah, that's it. Every sideways movement and turning before aiming down the sights adds to the lateral sway. If you move only forward before it, the sway is almost completely vertical.

[DancZer 65]

I don't know that this is a feature or bug, but turning from hip(optic mode + free look) not apply horizontal sway.

[-Coulum- 35]

Are you talking about CQB? I guess not.

But are you talking about CQB? When you're truly in CQB range the sway does not prevent you (well certainly not me) from hitting the target. Its only when you try to engage targets out of CQB range, quickly, before first gaining a stable shooting platform (recovering from strafing/rapidly changing aim) that you will find frustration. The slight sway you point out, which lasts about a second after strafe walking, really isn't harsh enough to prevent you from engaging the enemy just down the hall from you. Or do you disagree?

And PS, don't use tactical pace if you don't have to. Its not meant to be something you engage from with accuracy. If this is the pace you are using when you get the extra horizontal sway... well there's your problem. That "after sway" is perfect and I really hope they don't take it out. Gone are the days of constantly strafing each other like playing quake.

That being said I do have some feedback for inertia after a bit of time playing with it:

• Prone should have much more inertia and sway distortion. It is the most stable of the shooting positions, but it should be the least flexible/slowest to engage with
  
• In the same train of thought, crouch should have slightly more inertia. It is the middle ground for accuracy and speed
  
• LMG should have more inertia effects
  
• Sniper rifles should have more inertia effects and more sway distortion
  
• SMG's should have a tiny bit less inertia
  
• The sensitivity of sway distortion when standing with rifles should be lessened a bit (This should address the issue Aslanjuro has if you are not trying to turn unrealistically fast - the sway itself is good, but it is triggered far to easily right now - at least for standing
  

I do agree that heavy weapons should not be able to move as fast as say assault rifles and sub machine guns at the moment you can move LMGs at same speed as the rest of the weapons. Here is what it looks like when I engage an enemy at close range holding breath doest work well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7sa...3Ex8g4qxF6G3uQ

As I mention above, I think the sway isn't actually that bad, but rather its how easily it is triggered that is the problem. With a rifle you should be able to rotate a bit more while maintaining accuracy.

And also be aware that this is really limited to weapons that have optics capable of magnification mounted on them. Use a strictly holographic sight and you will see that the sway distortion is much harder to trigger. BI mentioned that high magnification scopes would be effected by inertia more. But problems arise when you are using the secondary, non magnified sight on that scope.

I don't know that this is a feature or bug, but turning from hip(optic mode + free look) not apply horizontal sway.

Yeah noticed that. Probably not supposed to work that way.

Edited August 26, 2014 by -Coulum-

[chortles 263]

In the CQB context, how do you define 'when you have to' for tactical pace?

[Bouben 3]

But are you talking about CQB? When you're truly in CQB range the sway does not prevent you (well certainly not me) from hitting the target. Its only when you try to engage targets out of CQB range, quickly, before first gaining a stable shooting platform (recovering from strafing/rapidly changing aim) that you will find frustration. The slight sway you point out, which lasts about a second after strafe walking, really isn't harsh enough to prevent you from engaging the enemy just down the hall from you. Or do you disagree?

And PS, don't use tactical pace if you don't have to. Its not meant to be something you engage from with accuracy. If this is the pace you are using when you get the extra horizontal sway... well there's your problem. That "after sway" is perfect and I really hope they don't take it out. Gone are the days of constantly strafing each other like playing quake.

That being said I do have some feedback for inertia after a bit of time playing with it:

I have no problems with CQB. I was just pointing out that you don't have time for the "Shooting 101" procedures during CQB.

However the amount of lateral sway is nothing I was experiencing when trying a real world weapon. I think you should have a bit more control over your weapon when fully rested. It simply feels too clunky. But other than that, I enjoy Arma 3 more than ever before. It is simply a big improvement.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Bouben

[roshnak 41]

For clarification, is the sway you're describing a result of the weapon sway/fatigue or the new inertia system?

[-Coulum- 35]

In the CQB context, how do you define 'when you have to' for tactical pace?

Maybe "when it best suits the situation" would be more accurate than "when you have to". But basically its for situations where your top priority isn't/can't be putting down the other guy immediately. When the only way not to get shot yourself is to move quickly, but you still want to put down fire and possibly the enemy. Getting out of a killzone quickly, putting fire down a hall while quickly strafing to cover. Quickly breaching into a room that doesn't allow a safer "leaning + cutting the pie" process. If you are in a very desperate situation and you need to move quickly through buildings that you don't think have enemy in them but you want to have your gun still up. There are a whole host of situations I can think of, but I would never suggest someone use tactical pace as a default pace. In CQB if you can do so safely, you should be walking, so you can best engage targets. I use tactical pace alot but its always in short second long bursts, to bust into a room or to move quickly up to the next door or something. But when it actually comes to engaging targets walking/leaning around corners is always best. Walking vs. Tactical pace is similar to Prone vs. Standing. Its aways ideal to be prone, but sometimes its simply not possible.

So a short answer to your "how do you define when you have to" is: when not doing so allows you to be easily be shot before you can shoot the other guy.

I have no problems with CQB. I was just pointing out that you don't have time for the "Shooting 101" procedures during CQB.

Okay, all I am pointing out is that the fact that you don't have time for shooting 101 isn't a big deal, because you don't really need shooting 101 for those engagements imo. The current sway doesn't make CQB impossible.

However the amount of lateral sway is nothing I was experiencing when trying a real world weapon. I think you should have a bit more control over your weapon when fully rested. It simply feels too clunky. But other than that, I enjoy Arma 3 more than ever before. It is simply a big improvement.

Okay, can you clarify what sway you are talking about. Is it that after strafing at tactical pace sway, after strafing at walking pace sway or sway due to inertia? Or something else entirely?

[alsanjuro 20]

I am amazed that there is so much inertia even when you are prone i mean your weapon in sitting on the ground and yet if i move it slightly to side i get the bouncing effect. You cant always walk at snail pace in CQB. The inertia is activated so easily and then i have no control over my weapon it just is starting to drive me mad especially when i see the ai run stop and put bullets into me without any problem. In real life when you aim down the gun which has a sight your head is no top off you weapon and if you move it your head moves with it to keep looking down the sight and yet here in arma your sight moves around even to the point where it leaves the screen. That would mean that your weapon moves around when turning but your body or your head.

Facts are that weapon sway is still over exaggerated and at moment i have no way of countering the inertia effect yet in real life i can stop my weapon from moving from going all over the place.

[roshnak 41]

I can't tell if you are talking about inertia or weapon sway or both.

As for your complaints about your head not being fixed to your sights: Sure, that's an argument that you can make, but even if the game acted like your head was glued to the stock, it wouldn't fundamentally change the weapon sway or inertia or the actions required to manage those things in the game.

The way you counter inertia, by the way, is by making smooth movements with your mouse and avoiding sudden accelerations. If you have ever played Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield, the principle is the same.

[alsanjuro 20]

Yes i am talking about both sway and inertia. On my arma as it stands even when i move my gun slowly it starts bouncing. When your weapon moves you should be able to stop your weapon from moving in that direction in this case your mouse in real life you would use your arms as they would be similar to a shock absorber not jelly when if it stops inside it get the bouncing effect. You should get a real weapon and tell me its the same as in the game. The so called inertia is at moment triggered too easily.

At moment even the slightest movement i make with the weapon its bouncing side to side. I dont think lot of people know how inertia works and there a hundreds of videos online with people demonstrating correct handling of all sort of weapons and i dont see any of their weapons bouncing. I do have real world experience with firearms and this is not what it is in real life. If your weapon was bouncing so easily then you need to get some serious training. Arma 3 soldiers arent soldiers they are geriatrics who cant hold their rifles.

[blackpixxel 53]

I think you don't really got the point what A3's weapon inertia is about. It is not there to simulate a weapon bouncing. The main goal is that the weapons weight affect your gameplay, that you cannot run around with a .50 Sniper Rifle in Close quarters and turn 90 degree to instantly shoot at someone. The weapon boucing is just the way they used to make the weight 'visible'. There are other ways, but they are worse (for example a weapon that rotates slower than you and would make the game much more indirect).

[alsanjuro 20]

I was not talking about carring a .50 sniper and doing CQB i couldnt care about people that do that its their problem. My primary weapon is an assault rifle. Every weapon has a different weight yet you can still move a .50 sniper, assault rifle or lmg and same speed in game. I should be able to stop a weapon from bouncing so i can engage my targets accurately cause at the moment its not working. Weight should not be represented by the bouncing of your weapon and is by making it move slower. Inertia should be adjusted according to the weight of the weapon cause its not at moment where you can move any weapon at same speed. I am getting annoyed when everyone keeps bringing examples like using a sniper at CQB that is funny. If we are talking about real inertia then when you spin with your weapon say 90 degrees yes you shouldn't be able to stop your weapon dead on target but your weapon should still move a bit in that direction passed where you have stopped your weapon and then you should be able to bring back your weapon onto target. At the moment even slightest movement causes weapon sway, personally i think if you are moving your weapon slowly there shouldn't be much of sway because your weapon is not producing that much inertia. So my weapon should not be bouncing left or right but should continue to travel past a point and then you are able adjust your sight and shoot.

[Bouben 3]

Okay, can you clarify what sway you are talking about. Is it that after strafing at tactical pace sway, after strafing at walking pace sway or sway due to inertia? Or something else entirely?

Yes, it is a sway caused by inertia when you run sideways with your weapon ready.

I don't want to remove the sway, just to reduce the time needed to get control over your weapon again. Other than that, the lateral sway caused by inertia is good.

[twisted 127]

some peoples comments are getting an inordinate amont of attention despite the validillity (or lack therefo) of the concerns or the clarity of comments. a point has been made, repeating it wont make it anymore avlid or change thinsg it seems.

might be worth reading this before proceding as there might be a fundamental disconnect in approches and understanding. http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-weapon-inertia

[-Coulum- 35]

I don't want to remove the sway, just to reduce the time needed to get control over your weapon again. Other than that, the lateral sway caused by inertia is good.

When just running sideways weapon up, I actually don't see any lateral "after sway". Its only rotating that causes this as far as I can see.

On my arma as it stands even when i move my gun slowly it starts bouncing.

This is the only thing I somewhat agree with you. For assault rifles, the sway distortion is triggered a bit too easily when using the secondary sight on optics like the ARCO. You really have turn slowly to avoid the extra sway. I think when standing, with an assault rifle, it should be a bit less sensitive to sway distortion.

But Alsanjuro I encourage you to read the "oprep". Weapon inertia and sway is not supposed to be a 1:1 depiction of what you see in real life. Its supposed to make gameplay unfold more like real life. Its about having realistic results, not neccarily realistic methods of attaining those results. Inertia and the sway distortion is doing exactly that.

[Bouben 3]

When just running sideways weapon up, I actually don't see any lateral "after sway". Its only rotating that causes this as far as I can see.

Try to "zig-zag" a bit and then check it.

Maybe we just cannot communicate what we observe.

[alsanjuro 20]

After playing arma 3 and putting like 1300 hours looks more likely i will be deleting it and go back to Arma 2. So pretty much was a waste of money in supporting it in alpha. These mechanics they are introducing have really broken my interest in this game. I dont really like to play a drunk simulator as they turned dayz into a walking one. Sorry i just feel a bit ripped off. It is a game l love to play but it seems i will have to find something else.

[Ophichius 10]

With this latest update the sway and recoil issues have become bad enough that I'm not likely to pick the game up again until they're fixed. It's both jarring and incredibly irritating the way that both scopes and iron sights wobble around your screen as though your soldier is Cpl. Jello Arms. A proper shooting stance does not allow that much relative movement between the eye and the rear sight.

[-Coulum- 35]

Try to "zig-zag" a bit and then check it.

Maybe we just cannot communicate what we observe.

Yeah I still don't see any side to side sway after doing that. there is an extra long swing upwards usually, but otherwise it goes right to normal breathing sway again. Now when you rotate quickly then I definitely get that side to side sway.