New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

[Reuben5150 2]

It can be controlled and mastered with patience, concentration, time and skill. Roshnak's vid makes it look easy. I am able to hit targets out to 1500m with the 1.24 sway, and I am not really a great fps player. No doubt, it takes a fair amount of time, but I think for such shots it is reasonable. I was even able to get a hit on a moving target which feels amazingly satisfying!

You are right, I should have spent more time playing before commenting ;-) its really not so bad, but im still not happy with fatigue as it is.

[mamasan8 11]

Weapon sway is an exact replica from COD:Ghosts. At least on console.

[barakokula31 10]

Weapon sway is an exact replica from COD:Ghosts. At least on console.

Did you hear that everyone? CoD is finally trying to be realistic!

[mamasan8 11]

Did you hear that everyone? CoD is finally trying to be realistic!

Good joke

[-Coulum- 35]

Did you hear that everyone? CoD is finally trying to be realistic!

Haha yes!

Good joke

No joke. Who knows maybe ghosts got its inspiration for weapon sway from VBS2. I hear its a pretty realistic game (well training sim) as well - and your weapon is constantly bobbing around...

You are right, I should have spent more time playing before commenting ;-) its really not so bad, but im still not happy with fatigue as it is.

Thanks for giving it more time. Glad you agree.

Edited August 4, 2014 by -Coulum-

[UltimateBawb 1]

Sorry, but you're the one who's being confused by language. What do you think realistic means? True to life? It's a game, it can't be 100%, it's impossible. It would also be incredibly boring. You can't translate things from real life to a game that don't apply.

Stop trying to play with words. Realism doesn't have to be a carbon copy of real life. This game is supposed to be close to reality. Authentic. Again, stop trying to make ridiculous claims by bending language.

[lalas147 10]

I think the new weaponsway is not so cool..

[Bouben 3]

...need to focus on how it feels and how it plays.

I agree with this.

---------- Post added at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:02 ----------

Anyone else worried about how the sway looks? I still see everybody discussing the gameplay and difficulty but has anyone thought about the visual impact of the new sway system?

I mean, I really like the challenge it brings to the game but at the same time it really kills my immersion somehow. It just feels wrong. It feels so unnatural, artificial and forced (the weapon sway looks completely ridiculous when moving while tired).

Has anyone similar feeling about this?

[redarmy 422]

Thought id just chime in here....

I like the new sway,wethers its authentic or not,it adds difficulty- i like.

Also mods...tmr weapon rest etc can make it a clear choice about shooting poition when playing.

I had no trouble prone with PKM(no bipod or rest) mowing down fire teams with high volumes of fire,and then with an SVD after that.

Personally i like it,along with fatigue,its more emmersive

[CaptainObvious 95]

looks[/b]? I still see everybody discussing the gameplay and difficulty but has anyone thought about the visual impact of the new sway system?

I mean' date=' I really like the challenge it brings to the game but at the same time it really kills my immersion somehow. It just [b']feels [/b]wrong. It feels so unnatural, artificial and forced (the weapon sway looks completely ridiculous when moving while tired).

Has anyone similar feeling about this?

While moving and aiming down sights? Or just the weapon movement when the rifle is shouldered?

[Bouben 3]

While moving and aiming down sights? Or just the weapon movement when the rifle is shouldered?

The sway feels wrong pretty much in every situation for me but the most disturbing is the combat jog with a weapon ready when you are <=50% fatigued. It feels as if the soldier is limping.

[GShock 10]

It is impossible to assess whether or not the new system is better until it is implemented in the AI (which still shoots unerringly from 200m with iron sights) and until a better damage model is implemented as well.

[enex 11]

someone can tell me if the AI accuracy is affected by new fatigue?

It is (even though it may not visually seem so when looking thru AI's eyes). It is affected by injuries and fatigue in (almost) the same way as the player. Issue might be that AI is rather good at compensating the sway. There are adjustments in progress. Ideally it should be more dependable on the AI skill.

Try placing a soldier next to you, keep giving you both fatigue by a script and have some careless targets down the range. He wont be much better than you ;) But isolated tests are one thing - emergent gameplay situations are different and more important.

-This is Dev BRANCH!

After hitting an AI unit in the hands they seem to have no problems aiming spot on.

In fact they receive the maximum error an AI can ever get ;) The speed of "recovery" is dependent on their skill (unlike some other aspects, I believe the skill effect here is quite pronounced). You can't really observe that visually (thru animations - there's no visible sway on AI), but you shouldn't get hit by the AI you've just shot (other than by pure bad luck;)).

At the same time I am not saying this purrfectly reflects the sway player receives in the current stable build.

[roshnak 41]

It is impossible to assess whether or not the new system is better until it is implemented in the AI (which still shoots unerringly from 200m with iron sights) and until a better damage model is implemented as well.

Unless you primarily play PvP multiplayer.

[CaptainObvious 95]

The sway feels wrong pretty much in every situation for me but the most disturbing is the combat jog with a weapon ready when you are <=50% fatigued. It feels as if the soldier is limping.

I have mixed feelings about the looks, when I'm staying still and ADS, I like what I see, but some of the sway while moving is rather uneasy on the eye, I can't remember what exactly were the cases I don't like but will test on a later occasion, it's bazillion degrees in the house already and my rig is an oven :pet13:

[Bouben 3]

I have mixed feelings about the looks, when I'm staying still and ADS, I like what I see, but some of the sway while moving is rather uneasy on the eye, I can't remember what exactly were the cases I don't like but will test on a later occasion, it's bazillion degrees in the house already and my rig is an oven :pet13:

OK, tell us your findings then. Thanks.

[squirrel0311 16]

Personally I like the old system better because the prone and lower stances felt more realistic in terms of weapons sway and breathing. It seems like every weapon uses the same amount of sway instead of being relative to the weight. (Haven’t tested that other than messing around with the Lynx, MX, and Zafir in the Virtual Arsenal) Add the new sway with the new fatigue system and it just makes it hard for me to accept. I play a lot of PVP and if I had that much trouble with weapon sway and fatigue after running 15m in real life I would just desert. Haha

I’m seeing a lot of people talking about countering weapon sway via movement or “handling.†– At higher stances yes you should have more sway and have to counter the sway but as you get yourself lower to the ground you SHOULD through good technique become more stable which means less to ultimately no need to “Muscle your weapon.†This is why the prone position bothers me so much.

Prone: When the Marksmanship fundamentals are applied, even with gear on, prone remains the most stable position and for that reason we teach that there should be NO MUSCLING of the weapon. In fact once you’ve improved on the basics enough and everything becomes tight, a new element is introduced…Shot Timing. When you snap in correctly and tight enough you can see your crosshair jiggle in pulses thanks to your heart beat. (I’m sure many have already mentioned this.) Obviously in game a lot of this stuff can’t and probably shouldn’t be simulated but what I saw last night shooting prone was nowhere near what I would consider realistic.

When aimed in through the scope on this new patch it feels like the sensitivity is turned way down and fighting the sway even while holding my breath is nearly impossible. It seems like you have to really drag your mouse in the opposite direction to even slow it down enough to wrangle a shot on or near target. In real life, at distances of 500 to 1000m simply moving your foot could cause you to miss.

I’d much rather see a system that is sensitive and easy to over correct if you move your mouse too fast. In addition, when in the prone you can only move about 15 degrees from center line of where your body is pointing. If you moved further than that the scope would jolt upward and bob once or twice as your body shifts. There should be a little bit of sway but when you hold your breath it should drop to almost nothing but… the little heart beat jiggle would be a nice touch. You should also be able to hold your breath for 10 seconds normally to 6 seconds fatigued.

(I'm sure someone already threw this in too but just for giggles.)

Marksmanship Fundamentals: Your stable shooting position is built on a few basic things…

Natural Point of Aim – This means positioning your body in such a way that your sights do or almost rest naturally on your target. There should be no twisting your body or constant fighting to keep your sights pointed where they’re supposed to go. (This is mainly for longer ranges in the prone but it’s still important.)

Bone Support – Muscles are twitchy, therefore you want to rely on them as little as possible. Instead you want to find a way that allows you to relax and let your bone structure or something else support the weapon. (Prone to low kneeling stances)

Weapon cradling – This is all the things that have to be done properly with the weapon itself including buttstock in the shoulder pocket, steady and naturally comfortable forehand support, high firm pistol grip, proper cheek-weld, proper eye relief, sight alignment, and sight picture. (Pretty much all done for you in the game.)

Breathing Control – Natural Respiratory Pause – This means waiting till you naturally exhale and holding that pause at the end when all of the air is out of your lungs. (Done by the hold breath key)

Trigger Control - Slow steady squeeze until the shot breaks. (Done for you by the game.)

[-Coulum- 35]

I’m seeing a lot of people talking about countering weapon sway via movement or “handling.†– At higher stances yes you should have more sway and have to counter the sway but as you get yourself lower to the ground you SHOULD through good technique become more stable which means less to ultimately no need to “Muscle your weapon.†This is why the prone position bothers me so much.

Prone: When the Marksmanship fundamentals are applied, even with gear on, prone remains the most stable position and for that reason we teach that there should be NO MUSCLING of the weapon. In fact once you’ve improved on the basics enough and everything becomes tight, a new element is introduced…Shot Timing. When you snap in correctly and tight enough you can see your crosshair jiggle in pulses thanks to your heart beat. (I’m sure many have already mentioned this.) Obviously in game a lot of this stuff can’t and probably shouldn’t be simulated but what I saw last night shooting prone was nowhere near what I would consider realistic.

But the thing is in arma when prone you don't have to "muscle" the mouse when prone. Its so stable that unless you are making 600m+ shots you pretty much just point and click. On the longer shots you adjust your aim to be generally pointing at the target, get in sync with the breathing and make sure the target lays on the path of the sway (there is a predictable pattern). And release your shot when the reticule falls over the target. Its actually pretty immersive to me because with each swing of the weapon I feel like I are breathing in and out (even more so in dev where sway is much more up and down/less side to side). Heres a vid of me practing exactly that (posted it a page back as well).

You should also be able to hold your breath for 10 seconds normally to 6 seconds fatigued.

I disagree. I am sure you know that hold breath doesn't literally help much if not applied correctly in reality. Alot more is going into it than stopping breathing for 10-6 seconds, and you really can't do that at all (let alone 6 seconds) when you are exhausted. If you don't give your muslces oxygen when they need it (asap when tired) your muscles will tremble enough to make it not worth it to hold your breath. Plus there are so many over factors when you are tired that even if you could have perfect breath control you wouldn't be able to achieve much accuracy.

I play a lot of PVP and if I had that much trouble with weapon sway and fatigue after running 15m in real life I would just desert.

It may just take some getting used to but really it is not that bad. Running 15m barely has an effect on your aim and it goes away within seconds. I am not sure how it is that difficult. Here is a good video shows just how hard it is to engage after sprinting distances in various stances. I would say stable is pretty reasonable. Dev is even easier.

Edited August 6, 2014 by -Coulum-

[roshnak 41]

It seems like every weapon uses the same amount of sway instead of being relative to the weight.

I think this is true and should probably be changed.

I’m seeing a lot of people talking about countering weapon sway via movement or “handling.†– At higher stances yes you should have more sway and have to counter the sway but as you get yourself lower to the ground you SHOULD through good technique become more stable which means less to ultimately no need to “Muscle your weapon.†This is why the prone position bothers me so much.

Prone: When the Marksmanship fundamentals are applied, even with gear on, prone remains the most stable position and for that reason we teach that there should be NO MUSCLING of the weapon. In fact once you’ve improved on the basics enough and everything becomes tight, a new element is introduced…Shot Timing. When you snap in correctly and tight enough you can see your crosshair jiggle in pulses thanks to your heart beat. (I’m sure many have already mentioned this.) Obviously in game a lot of this stuff can’t and probably shouldn’t be simulated but what I saw last night shooting prone was nowhere near what I would consider realistic.

When aimed in through the scope on this new patch it feels like the sensitivity is turned way down and fighting the sway even while holding my breath is nearly impossible. It seems like you have to really drag your mouse in the opposite direction to even slow it down enough to wrangle a shot on or near target. In real life, at distances of 500 to 1000m simply moving your foot could cause you to miss.

First of all, you don't have to correct for sway in Arma 3. You can absolutely just predict the sway and wait for the sights to sweep over the target.

Second, while what you are saying is true in real life, this is a video game and there are fundamental differences. It's hard to remain still in real life, while it's easy in a video game - all you have to do is take your hands off the controls. That is a substantial disconnect between real life and video games. There is a huge difference in where the skill is at.

Simply put, it's just not possible to make using a mouse feel like aiming a rifle. The mouse isn't susceptible to all the small movements your body makes. The mouse isn't heavy. It's already resting on a surface, and you're just sliding it around in 2D space. Those of us in favor of the new system and the ability to correct for sway don't like it because we think it's a perfect recreation of the experience shooting in reality, we like it because we feel that it provides a roughly analogous skill requirement and it creates realistic situations. Even under the new sway system it doesn't take a great deal of skill to make shots that would be considered exceptional in real life.

[-Coulum- 35]

Second, while what you are saying is true in real life, this is a video game and there are fundamental differences. It's hard to remain still in real life, while it's easy in a video game - all you have to do is take your hands off the controls. That is a substantial disconnect between real life and video games. There is a huge difference in where the skill is at.

Simply put, it's just not possible to make using a mouse feel like aiming a rifle. The mouse isn't susceptible to all the small movements your body makes. The mouse isn't heavy. It's already resting on a surface, and you're just sliding it around in 2D space. Those of us in favor of the new system and the ability to correct for sway don't like it because we think it's a perfect recreation of the experience shooting in reality, we like it because we feel that it provides a roughly analogous skill requirement and it creates realistic situations. Even under the new sway system it doesn't take a great deal of skill to make shots that would be considered exceptional in real life.

Exactly. Wonderfully worded.

[squirrel0311 16]

Well first let me start by saying that I am fully aware of the gap between reality and games that can never be fully closed, hence why I said some of this stuff can’t and shouldn't be added or attempted.

I also understand why some might favor the somewhat added difficulty or “skill†that is now required due to the new features and therefore prefer the new system over the old.

I am also completely aware that you can simply wait for the sights to sweep over the target with little to no adjustment. I do not claim that this patch makes shooting impossible or that it’s even overly difficult to put rounds on targets.

However, with that being said… as I stated in the beginning… Personally I don’t like the new system. It doesn't feel or look natural to me. The natural respiratory pause has its place and without it, the aiming just feels clunky and non-immersive. I’m not saying that it’s all bad, just that it feels broken and incomplete. You might compare this to how some people hate that the MI-48 interior is a copy and paste of the Apache. While I can look past the pasted interior, the sway and pause are harder for me to overlook and it leaves something else to be desired for me.

As for holding your breath for 10 seconds fully rested… It’s all about conditioning... I’m not sure what kind of PT the CSAT and Altis guys do but I think I heard that the BlueFor guys are supposed to be something along the lines of SF which would generally mean they’re probably in pretty good shape. In real life we used to do breath holding drills all the time. It’s more of a way of measuring conditioning and adding additional stress than it is an actual marksmanship tool. You would start at the 1000yrd line, load your weapon, get online and everyone would take off to the 500. (We said sprint but it was really more of a fast jog, you want to be one of the first 5 there but you don’t want to be so tired you miss.) Hit the 500yrd line and set up and make ready. Drop your hand when you start holding your breath while your buddy counts out loud. You hold it as long as you can and then squeeze your shot off… If you hit your target then you’re good if not then get to do it again. :/ I could hold it about MAX 8 seconds and still hit a silhouette center mass at 500yrds and that’s using a Mk11 or Mk12 which are heavier than a standard M-16A4. For game purposes though I would be happy with something more along the lines of 6 fully rested and 3 when fatigued.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Squirrel0311

[-Coulum- 35]

However, with that being said… as I stated in the beginning… Personally I don’t like the new system. It doesn't feel or look natural to me. The natural respiratory pause has its place and without it, the aiming just feels clunky and non-immersive. I’m not saying that it’s all bad, just that it feels broken and incomplete. You might compare this to how some people hate that the MI-48 interior is a copy and paste of the Apache. While I can look past the pasted interior, the sway and pause are harder for me to overlook and it leaves something else to be desired for me.

Yeah I get where your coming from, and others in this thread have the same feeling. Even I won't argue that the sway is an exact replica of what you will see and feel in real life. Its not. But now the question comes - what is that "something else to be deisred" that you mention...that will also not degrade from the more realistic limitations of putting rounds on target that come with the current sway? What will make things feel more real to you, but not make it easier than it should be? So far as I see, a tad of possibly exaggerated sway is the best option we have really.

I hear you say that the respiratory pause is missing. I agree quite a bit actually. Maybe at the end of each "swing" there should be a slow down and pause for just under a second. Then this can be extended using hold breath:

So at the top of each breath you might have a second of steadiness, but if you hold breath at that time (which might slow sway to maybe by a factor of 5) you would actually have 5 six seconds of complete steadiness. Meanwhile if you hold breath during the middle of a sway it will slow the sway making it easier to aim but not with the perfect steadiness.

As for the hold breath. All I am trying to say is that you can practice it when fatigued but at that point I think breathing is the least of your worries. Like you say earlier, at 500m just moving your foot can throw off your shots. When your legs are trembling because you just did an all out 100 metre sprint you can imagine breathing isn't going to be your only problem. And that's not something that can be changed by fitness. If you exhaust your muscles, they don't do what you want them to do with much precision. fitness will make it take longer to get fatigued, but when your exhausted your exhausted, no matter how fit you are.

So basically, yes you can hold breath even while fatigued, and even practice proper breath control, but that isn't really going to help much because there are other factors. That is my experience at least. I am not and have not been in the military, but I have done shooting torture tests and no matter how hard I tried to practice breath control proper posture etc. it made little difference because my muscles simply refused to relax.

And in dev this is actually exactly what happens. You can hold your breath for a full 8 seconds while fully fatigued, but it doesn't help much because your aim is still trembling horizontally like mad. Cant switch to stable to see how it works there...

I could hold it about MAX 8 seconds and still hit a silhouette center mass at 500yrds

Wow that is pretty impressive. Were you able to do that consistently? If so that is exceptional. I mean, what conditions would it take for you to miss a shot...?

Edited August 7, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Varanon 892]

Edit: Never mind, old post

[galzohar 31]

In real life, holding your breath for too long (sniper instructors were saying max 8 seconds, and that's when you are fully rested) will start to cause your brain to see things at a delay compared to what is really happening, which can easily cause you to miss (as you are deciding to finish pulling the trigger based on an image that is no longer valid, and your sights are actually already pointing elsewhere, even if ever so slightly). Since this effect cannot be simulated in-game, I find it acceptable that the game simply forces you to start breathing again, as IRL you wouldn't have continued to hold your breath anyway due to this effect.