New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

[vegeta897 13]

He said that is what it is like when he shoots.

No he didn't. He said based on his own experience and secondary sources that the sway in game is realistic. As in, countering it in game is similar to controlling it in real life. He didn't say the sway in the game is what he experiences in real life.

The *results* of the added challenge are realistic in that long range engagements aren't easy.

The *visual representation* of the new system is not realistic and it is immersion-breaking.

Again, this is the end point of the disagreement. We both understand eachother and disagree on how the end result is achieved. I said this already, so I don't know why you're repeating it. I replied to you not because I have a problem with you disagreeing, but because you decided to say something that threw away all the progress made in this discussion.

[Rath 10]

No he didn't. He said based on his own experience and secondary sources that the sway in game is realistic. As in, countering it in game is similar to controlling it in real life. He didn't say the sway in the game is what he experiences in real life.

If he is saying the sway is realistic then he is saying that is what he experiences in real life...

Sorry, but it isn't hard to control a weapon.

Again, this is the end point of the disagreement. We both understand eachother and disagree on how the end result is achieved. I said this already, so I don't know why you're repeating it. I replied to you not because I have a problem with you disagreeing, but because you decided to say something that threw away all the progress made in this discussion.

I am repeating it because I will stand by the fact that this new system is not realistic. I was talking to him anyways, not you.

Anyways, I came up with realistic options that can make both sides happy.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Rath

[vegeta897 13]

We're going in circles...

You said yourself: The *results* of the added challenge are realistic in that long range engagements aren't easy.

Then you say it isn't hard to control a weapon? Which is it? It's harder in the game to hold the weapon steady than real life, but it's not hard in the game to shoot accurately. If we can both agree on the realism of how hard it is to shoot accurately, I can't fathom why you keep bringing the argument backwards. Nowhere in his post did he say that the sway in the game is what he experienced in real life when actively holding his weapon steady. What his post did say is that the challenge of shooting accurately in real life is realistically represented in the game via the exaggerated sway. You agree that the level of challenge is realistic, but disagree that the method of recreating this challenge is a good one. This is a concluded argument, there's nothing left without talking in more circles. We understand both sides, and disagree on a point that is disagreeable.

When you make a public post in a public thread, you accept that others can respond to you. If you didn't want that, make it a PM.

[Rath 10]

Long range engagements, as in 1000m+

It is still horribly annoying close range.

If he is saying the challenge of shooting accurately in real life is realistically represented in the game via the exaggerated sway, I am going to naturally assume that when he shoots he sways around like how it is represented in game... In which case, based on *my* experience, he is a very inexperienced shooter or has no idea what he is talking about.

Really? This is a public thread? O.o

I couldn't care less if people respond...

The "level of challenge" doesn't need to be made realistic by this system (there are better ways) and a lot of the ArmA 3 players have been alienated because of it, so I apologize if I am a little annoyed.

[faire 10]

Rath: you say that there are fare better ways of making long-range fights more difficult, do you have anything specific on your mind?

[Rath 10]

Rath: you say that there are fare better ways of making long-range fights more difficult, do you have anything specific on your mind?

Yes sir.

This is mostly general difficulty:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180382-New-Weaponsway-is-way-to-much-And-holding-breath-bug&p=2734993&viewfull=1#post2734993

As for long range sniper shots, if vanilla had better *and realistic* ballistics - problem solved.

From 191:

Maybe for sniper rifles have a trigger squeeze bar or something where you have to hold down the mouse and a bar goes to the right then back and you have to release it in the middle on a mark, kinda like a golfing game. Totally like a minigame and not something I endorse, LOL, but it might be fun for people who like to play as snipers.

I will never agree with forcing everyone to play a certain way just to fix one thing. All I am asking for is options so that we don't have to rely on addons, and so the people who can't use addons have a way to enjoy the game the way they want to.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Rath

[-Coulum- 35]

Maybe for sniper rifles have a trigger squeeze bar or something where you have to hold down the mouse and a bar goes to the right then back and you have to release it in the middle on a mark, kinda like a golfing game. Totally like a minigame and not something I endorse, LOL, but it might be fun for people who like to play as snipers.

I love this kind of thinking but I think for now we are going to have to stick to tweaking sway alone to achieve the desired results. What you suggest is maybe something for marksman dlc. I like the other suggestions you have about suppression and what not as well bbut again right now the question is how to tweak the sway alone, to get the best of both result based realism and immersive/aesthetic realism.

I will never agree with forcing everyone to play a certain way just to fix one thing. All I am asking for is options so that we don't have to rely on addons, and so the people who can't use addons have a way to enjoy the game the way they want to.

That is understandable but at the same time BI should have a general standard that pleases as many people as possible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay guys I've spent some time to analyse what is actually happening with the sway in 1.24 stable. Picture is worth a thousand words so here are my general findings:

The shaded area represents the vertical and horizontal axis of sway, while the line represents the actual sway pattern (Yes sway isn't actually something random, each stance has path that the weapon follows). Basically the axis of sway manipulates the sway pattern by stretching or compressing it.

This is sway while standing pointing at a target 300 metres away:

Sway Speed is moderate.

This is sway while crouched pointing at a target 300 metres away:

Speed of the sway is about two thirds as fast as while standing.

This is sway while prone pointing at a target 300 metres away:

Speed of the sway is about one tenth as fast as while standing.

This is the sway while prone pointing at a target 1000 metres away:

You can see that higher power optics magnify the sway.

And Lastly a comparison of the 3 stances

Basically when you are fatigued or injured it stretches the vertical and horizontal axis of sway as well as increasing the sway speed. Injury general causes a horizontal stretch in the sway pattern, while fatigue general causes a vertical stretch in the sway pattern.

Based on this I have several suggestions that I think might help players find the system more intuitive and immersive/believable/aesthetically realistic and less frustrating/annoying, while also retaining the more realistic challenge that 1.24 stable brought. Here are a few key points:

• Sway should be much more vertical and much less horizontal - stance will change vertical sway not as drastically but will almost nullify horizontal sway the lower you go.
  
• Sway speed should not be effected by stance as much. Standing speed should be slightly slower (than in 1.24), while prone speed should be slightly faster (than in 1.24). Your breathing rate doesn't change when you change stance.
  
• Fatigue will not increase the vertical axis of sway as much, but will effect sway speed drastically, since your respiratory rate is increasing.
  
• Injury is fine as it is. It is pretty damn hard to shoot with an arm injury now but I don't think anyone really knows what its like to aim with a bullet in your arm. We can assume it is very hard. The current achieves this. If anyone has better ideas/experience feel free to share.
  

So basically this is somewhat like what the new sway system would look like...

Standing 300m:

Compared to 1.24

Much less horizontal with a slightly slower sway speed than 1.24 currently has, and a longer vertical axis.

Crouched 300m:

Compared to 1.24

Less horizontal with the same sway speed as 1.24 and a longer vertical axis.

Prone 300m:

Compared to 1.24

A bit less horizontal with a slightly faster sway speed than 1.24 currently has, and a longer vertical axis.

Prone 1000m:

Compared to 1.24

You will notice that prone still has a considerable range of motion when targeting long range targets. This is intentional. The hope is that the much more vertical and thus predictable sway pattern will make it feel more natural and smooth, and less jerky and frustrating. I don't want 1km sniping to be a cakewalk, but at the same time I don't want it to be a painful experience that can't be mastered. With the hold breath I suggest below, I think that this system will achieve this far better than what we currently have.

Basically the goal here is to keep the challenge while changing the sway such that it is more intuitive and less gimmicky. The more vertical movement will allow players to better predict and thus compensate for sway. Meanwhile, the speed change (standing slower than 1.24, prone faster than 1.24) will make shooting standing a bit more viable while still keeping prone shooting engaging despite the predictable weapon sway.

Hold breath feature would ideally not change the sway pattern as it does now in devbranch - it is confusing when you hold breath and your sway basically changes direction. Instead hold breath should merely slow down the speed of sway equally in both the vertical and horizontal direction (maybe by 75%) while keeping in the same motion. This will allow players to have more time to line up their shots or train their aim, while steadying their weapon.

Interested to know what you guys think... Does this seem like it might look and feel more believable? Could it be a step in the right direction?

Edited July 21, 2014 by -Coulum-

[roshnak 41]

So when you aim a gun, and when the guy you know aims a gun, you both sway around like drunks?

btw: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162786-Weapon-sway&p=2735759&viewfull=1#post2735759

I don't feel super comfortable bringing someone into this argument who isn't even registered for the forums. It's why I was hesitant to bring it up in the first place. I'd really rather not just be quoting other people's opinions.

The feeback he gave was that he thought the sway was slightly too circular. That he experienced weapon sway when firing off-hand as sort of a diagonally slanted figure eight, from the bottom left to the upper right. He thought the actual pattern should be more randomized. He said the sway wasn't outside the realm of believabity.

Hold breath feature would ideally not change the sway pattern as it does now - it is confusing when you hold breath and your sway basically changes direction. Instead hold breath should merely slow down the speed of sway while keeping in the same motion. This will allow players to have more time to line up their shots or train their aim, while steadying their weapon.

Interested to know what you guys think... Does this seem like it might look and feel more believable? Could it be a step in the right direction?

Personally, I would get rid of the hold breath feature, and just have the sway pause at the top and bottom of each breath, but that's probably out of the question at this point. Perhaps a combination of the systems could make it more advantagous to hold your breath at the top and bottom of each breath by allowing you to lengthen the natural pause at the those times (I hope this description isn't confusing).

Also, your whole post is super cool, even though I could not disagree more about suppression mechanics.

Edited July 21, 2014 by roshnak

[the_demongod 31]

^ wow, this is a great visual. not sure how you did this but it looks great.

One thing I would add is that your proposed weapon sway is a little bit too vertical. In real life, I believe inhaling would actually make your point of aim go down (since your hand stays fairly stable, and the increase in volume of the body would push the stock up, pivoting the gun down). Another thing is that when shooting from a stable position such as prone where breathing has little effect on the weapon, your pulse is a much bigger factor. It would be a neat feature to see, because with a slow sway the player can always move their mouse to keep the reticle in place, whereas in real life (and in game) your pulse throws your aim in a random direction. Holding your breath temporarily slows and lessens this jerking, but after several seconds the lack of oxygen causes it to quicken and rise in intensity.

[roshnak 41]

^ wow, this is a great visual. not sure how you did this but it looks great.

One thing I would add is that your proposed weapon sway is a little bit too vertical. In real life, I believe inhaling would actually make your point of aim go down (since your hand stays fairly stable, and the increase in volume of the body would push the stock up, pivoting the gun down).

This is basically how the guy I was talking to described it, with the added sideways movement towards your off hand, since the weapon is pivoting from your strong side (where it's nestled into your shoulder) down to your weak side (where you are supporting it with your off hand).

Another thing is that when shooting from a stable position such as prone where breathing has little effect on the weapon, your pulse is a much bigger factor. It would be a neat feature to see, because with a slow sway the player can always move their mouse to keep the reticle in place, whereas in real life (and in game) your pulse throws your aim in a random direction. Holding your breath temporarily slows and lessens this jerking, but after several seconds the lack of oxygen causes it to quicken and rise in intensity.

This is cool, but I think we're assuming that you aren't firing from a stable position, since weapon resting isn't implemented yet. It would be cool to see in the Marksman DLC, though, if weapon resting makes it in.

[Rath 10]

Coulum, I will look at it again in the morning when I'm not half asleep, thank you for taking the time to do all that!

Demongod, if your weapon is properly seated in the pit of your shoulder, breathing in makes your point of aim go up as your chest rises.

A high rate of pulse makes your aim shaky, not throw it in a random direction. Holding your breath makes the shaking worse, but would lessen the sway.

---------- Post added at 06:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 AM ----------

This is basically how the guy I was talking to described it, with the added sideways movement towards your off hand, since the weapon is pivoting from your strong side (where it's nestled into your shoulder) down to your weak side (where you are supporting it with your off hand).

Then he is gripping and supporting the weapon wrong. (and probably has poor stance too)

Edited July 21, 2014 by Rath

[badlucky1776 3]

Okay, guess I'm supposed to post this here instead. Forgive me I don't do a lot with forums. This is the copy from my post in "Weapons Sway" thread:

Hrm... I will add my two cents.

EXP...Former Navy & LE. About 1200 hrs in firearms training & rangetime (pretty much everything M2 Browning and smaller). Worked in the firearms community (defense/LE/domestic US) on and off for about 15 years. I feel moderately comfortable giving my opinion.

Weapon sway in 1.24 is a wee bit over the top. The weapon side-to-side sway while standing still (no fatigue ingame) is closer to what I experience doing an actual fatigue drill (40 situps/35 pushups, stand & shoot). I can understand the devs trying to simulate fatigue/adrenaline/inexperience in the shooting dynamic, but this feels more like the player has just ingested a couple bottles of Nyquil and marched into a gunfight.

Natural sway does included some lateral motion, but if the weapon is held correctly the shooter should mostly have to manage the vertical motion caused by respiration. The side-to-side sway introduced in 1.24 should be tied to extreme fatigue only - it does become difficult to position a 7 lbs (thats loaded/no optics/no lam-lights) rifle after a 1/2 mile run.

The optic swaying from one side of the screen to another? What does this simulate? If I physically have the energy to shoulder a weapon for sighting, I've never experienced my head bobbing laterally so that my sight picture moved like that. If you have an optic mounted on a weapon somewhere just try to simulate this. Where the sight gets to the edge of the screen ingame...you can no longer see the sight picture thru an actual optic. I just tried it with my M4 and Redfield 30mm optic...I'm at a loss. Even extremely tired my sight picture stays centered. My torso and arms may impart respiratory sway and fatigue shaking, but never does my sight move like I'm having a grand mal seizure.

Overall I could identify with the pre-1.24 sway dynamic, but I understand BIS attempt to improve. Here's some tips for a direction that may help...

- Stance is key, not just prone, kneeling standing, but how long you've adjusted to your stance. Try changing stance and immediately firing vs coming to a stance and taking a split second to stabilize yourself.

- Slow gait walking can allow for good controlled CQB firing (sub 50 ft range)

- Non-fatigued standing and kneeling stances are going to be more effected by respiration (vertical sway)...likewise recently walking = respiration is going to be faster

- Changing stance from prone-to-standing or kneeling-to-standing is going to effect fatigue greater than downward stance changes (not talking about diving mind you). Put 20-30 lbs in a backpack and try it yourself.

- Physical exertion isn't all the same. A slow jog for a mile can be a lot less taxing than an all out 100 yard sprint loaded down. The body gets time to adjust to the jog, but the sprint creates large fatigue problems over a much shorter distance.

- Extreme activity can have the same kind of gross motor effects that is experienced in 1.24 (albiet more vertical than side-to-side and more shaking than even swaying - nature of muscle recovery). But, and this is a BIG BUTT, it can be managed by being more conditioned to physical stress and experience with adrenaline. Maybe you should tie this to the reaction of the character based upon skill setting?

- Fear and adrenaline...some of the suppression mods have done some work to simulate this. Being shot at causes the body to flood with adrenaline (been there done that - El Camino Mall shooting Sacramento, Oct 19th, 1991). While this causes more shaking and rapid breathing (faster vertical sway) it actually has a negating effect on fatigue. I've never moved faster and farther in my life without feeling tired. Inversely, a person who is unprepared can experience paralysis (fight/flight/freeze). This could again be tied to skill level. 49% skill and lower = freeze (degrees of paralysis/slow movement). Units with 50% skill and greater = fight/flight (degrees of little or no fatigue for period of time).

[roberthammer 582]

@BadLucky1776

@-Coulum-

I agree with both of you - btw Coulum check the dev version if you can , in there the sway was reduced

as for long range accuracy , BIS needs to add these ballistics - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=4729 and http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11989

hopefully for marksman dlc , then it wont be that easy to hit the target , it will require a skill to do it

Edited July 21, 2014 by RobertHammer

[St. Jimmy 272]

@-Column-

Good visuals maybe bit too much vertical sway though, but it's hard to judge because people can compensate the sway with mouse, so even big sway can be good if it isn't too sudden.

[-Coulum- 35]

^ wow, this is a great visual. not sure how you did this but it looks great.

Nothing special, just photoshop. The sway patterns aren't 100% accurate but they are generally the right shape within the confines of the horizontal and vertical extents of sway. The extents of sway are pretty accurate however, as I used the markings on the sights to measure exactly how far off target the gun was capable of swaying along the horizontal and vertical axis. I think the pictures are accurate enough to provide feedback on.

I believe inhaling would actually make your point of aim go down (since your hand stays fairly stable, and the increase in volume of the body would push the stock up, pivoting the gun down).

Demongod, if your weapon is properly seated in the pit of your shoulder, breathing in makes your point of aim go up as your chest rises.

Either way the result is the rifle moves up and down. Whether its while inhaling or exhaling is inconsequential.

One thing I would add is that your proposed weapon sway is a little bit too vertical.

Quite possibly. In real life my aim certainly doesn't drift that far up or down due to breathing. But then again in real life I am always trying to compensate for my breathing. If the player compensates for the vertical sway I presented, I think the end result will be similar. I know some aren't a fan of having to fight or predict the sway, but my hope is that since it is basically totally vertical, and thus much more predictable, it will be much less of a tedious/annoying task and since it is based on realistic motion of the rifle, it will not come across as too unimmersive/unrealistic. And since the travel path of the sway is long and at moderate speed, it will retain the more realistic challenge that I personally am most concerned about, making long range shots take a bit of time and concentration to line up. Really we can't know for sure until BI makes a similar change, but theoretically I think it will be better than the sway we have now. Admittedly it will never be perfect due to the fact that we are on a mouse and keyboard with a 2d screen. But I think this sway would be closer to perfect than anything we've had so far. So I can't fully agree or disagree with you until I see it in action.

Another thing is that when shooting from a stable position such as prone where breathing has little effect on the weapon, your pulse is a much bigger factor. It would be a neat feature to see, because with a slow sway the player can always move their mouse to keep the reticle in place, whereas in real life (and in game) your pulse throws your aim in a random direction. Holding your breath temporarily slows and lessens this jerking, but after several seconds the lack of oxygen causes it to quicken and rise in intensity.

I would argue that even when prone, breathing has more effect than pulse. When you're prone your chest is still rising and falling which moves your body up and down ever so slightly which is something you have to compensate for when you aim. I do like the idea of pulse, but I think it is a different thing then weapon sway. Maybe a cool feature of the marksman dlc.

Personally, I would get rid of the hold breath feature, and just have the sway pause at the top and bottom of each breath, but that's probably out of the question at this point. Perhaps a combination of the systems could make it more advantagous to hold your breath at the top and bottom of each breath by allowing you to lengthen the natural pause at the those times (I hope this description isn't confusing).

I would say just keep it simple for now. While I love and have had the idea to combine hold breath key with respiratory state for varying degrees of steadiness I think that is a bit too hardcore. My goal right now, is to find a relatively balanced sway that isn't too easy, but isn't overly annoying. I am trying to look at it from other people's perspectives as well as my own and balance accordingly. Plus that is more of an additional feature than a tweak. But whon knows whats possible when the marksman comes around.

even though I could not disagree more about suppression mechanics

Hehe. Thats definitely a can of worms to be opened in another thread. Forget I even mentioned it.:)

btw Coulum check the dev version if you can , in there the sway was reduced

I have and generally I was not happy with it. While I liked the fact that horizontal sway was decreased, I felt it was unbalanced without an increase to the vertical sway. And I felt the speed of the sway was generally pretty good in 1.24 stable, thus I found it unnecessary to decrease that speed. They kind of just went halfway.

Something along the lines I'd like to see in next devbranch changelog regarding sway:

• Decreased horizontal sway by another 30% (ontop of the previous 20% we just had chopped off)
  
• Increased vertical sway by 30%
  
• Sped up crouched sway speed by 10%
  
• Sped up prone sway speed by 25%
  
• Hold breath now decreases not only vertical sway speed but also horizontal sway speed by 50% (To avoid the reticule suddenly veering left or right when you hold breath, as it does currently)
  

That dev branch would be closer to what I am trying achieve in my above post. Basically my problem with the way it is now is that it didn't make the sway and more controllable or less annoying, it just simply made it a hell of alot easier which isn't what I am looking for. I am trying to find the challenge of 1.24 without/with less of the annoying mechanics.

Good visuals maybe bit too much vertical sway though, but it's hard to judge because people can compensate the sway with mouse, so even big sway can be good if it isn't too sudden.

Exactly my thought process. Since the sway will be more predictable it shouldn't be hard for people to compensate for that vertical sway and keep realistically on target or time their shots when the reticule lines up with the target. But can't be sure based soley on pictures. See my response to the_Demongod.

Edited July 21, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Rath 10]

So that's pretty close to 80% vertical and 20% horizontal... which I've been saying for days. Thanks for listening Coulum :)

[CaptainObvious 95]

Coulum's post is awesome, as always, I hope the devs see it.

Also, thanks to BadLucky1776, that was interesting to read.

[faire 10]

Guys, you almost made me crying. It might be the first time in my life I saw people coming to a reasonable conclusion after days of heated discussion. Sob.

Coulum: thanks for your hard work, I hope that the devs will find it useful. I think it is very reasonable.

Rath: thanks for your answer.

[down8 30]

Rath: you say that there are fare better ways of making long-range fights more difficult, do you have anything specific on your mind?

Wind deflection, like in ACE mod. Realistic, challenging and funny way.

[Mr_FairyCake 10]

Spot on JC, it’s a game at the end of the day...make the dam thing playable as it becoming unplayable at the moment and putting me and my friends off big time

[Rath 10]

Coulum... I finally had a chance to take a better look at your pictures since my phone didn't seem to want to zoom in - they look great!

[whisper 0]

Wind deflection, like in ACE mod. Realistic, challenging and funny way.

Imho this is not enough. If the technicities consist of reading the wind from some sensor, entering it in some way into your sight calibration, and then be back exactly in the situation seen before (ie, easy shot @extreme ranges), I don't consider that particularly fine.

Aiming correctly comes from training. Rath jost showed it up a few replies back when commenting about people having the wrong stance and weapon positioning. I like the fact that the sway change introduces something for the player to try training for. The game doesn't consider anymore that you are a trained soldier and does all the "rifle holding" job for you.

It may be implemented in a very perfectible way, making it "feel" wrong, but having something to work for is good. It has several impact on gameplay that I like.

[roshnak 41]

Then he is gripping and supporting the weapon wrong. (and probably has poor stance too)

He's not, but in the interest of not setting back the progress we've made in this topic, because I already stated that I would be fine with a system that gave a corresponding increase in vertical sway for the decrease in horizontal, and because it's not my place to talk up someone else's military service, we should just drop it. If you'd like to discuss this more, we can take it to PMs. If not, that's cool too.

I would say just keep it simple for now. While I love and have had the idea to combine hold breath key with respiratory state for varying degrees of steadiness I think that is a bit too hardcore. My goal right now, is to find a relatively balanced sway that isn't too easy, but isn't overly annoying. I am trying to look at it from other people's perspectives as well as my own and balance accordingly. Plus that is more of an additional feature than a tweak. But whon knows whats possible when the marksman comes around.

I think you might be misunderstanding my suggestion about this. The way I saw it was that if you combine your system of slowing down the sway while holding your breath with my system of a natural pause at the top and bottom of each breath, it would naturally create a lengthened pause if you hold breath at those times. Otherwise, it would behave exactly like you suggested. Technically, it would always behave like you suggested, there would just be a natural pause at the end of each breath cycle.

Edited July 21, 2014 by roshnak

[badlucky1776 3]

Not sure how this would effect the sway correction effort but here's a little FYI..

Quick note:

When standing or kneeling with pistol or rifle, breathing in increases the volume of the chest causing sight picture to rise vertically. The weapon, if supported by a good controlling grip has no point of pivot as mentioned in an earlier post. This is shooting, not techno dancing, if it looks like your doing the robot, you're doing it wrong. This is how you teach breath control in basic firearms instruction: Breath in, weapon rises. Breath out halfway, and as the sight picture strokes down over the target hold your breath gently and squeeze the trigger. With a good pace on semi auto you can match the recoil of the shot to the upward motion of your inhale and rapidly drop the sight picture onto with the following exhale, hold halway and squeeze. Ever heard the term slow is fast, fast is slow? Shooting is all about pacing. You typically don't shoot at the top or bottom of the inhale/exhale strokes, like you would during a long rip from a suppression weapon (although even they can be fairly controllable with short burst using this method).

The only time a pivot would come into play is when a rifle is being supported by a secondary contact (rested on or against cover, bipod etc). This does allow for the pivot action (breath in = sight picture down). This is why bipods are generally mounted as far forward on the fore-end as possible...to stabilize the weapon from shooter body influence. Don't use your magazine for a rest, it exacerbates this center pivot problem and with certain types of weapons and magazine you can actually jar your magazine out of battery causing misfeeds.

Edited July 21, 2014 by BadLucky1776

[-Coulum- 35]

I think you might be misunderstanding my suggestion about this. The way I saw it was that if you combine your system of slowing down the sway while holding your breath with my system of a natural pause at the top and bottom of each breath, it would naturally create a lengthened pause if you hold breath at those times. Otherwise, it would behave exactly like you suggested. Technically, it would always behave like you suggested, there would just be a natural pause at the end of each breath cycle.

Ah I see. So at the top of each breath you might have a second of steadiness, but if you hold breath at that time (which might slow sway to maybe by a factor of 5) you would actually have 5 six seconds of complete steadiness. Meanwhile if you hold breath during the middle of a sway it will slow the sway making it easier to aim but not with the perfect steadiness. Love that idea.

I wonder if it is possible for the devs to make a pause in the sway cycle or if it has to be continuous sway. Because thats a really cool idea roshnak

Wind deflection, like in ACE mod. Realistic, challenging and funny way.

]Imho this is not enough. If the technicities consist of reading the wind from some sensor, entering it in some way into your sight calibration, and then be back exactly in the situation seen before (ie, easy shot @extreme ranges), I don't consider that particularly fine.

My opinion as well. Wind and environmental effects will add more technical difficulty, but once you learn to adjust to those shooting will remain far too easy a task. Ace shows this, as the wind really only adds a couple extra button presses to the first shot. After that it is once again dead easy to shoot.

Glad to see that generally seem to think my ideas are in the right direction. I am confident the devs already have a clear idea of how they want the mechanics to function, but I hope maybe they can take a thing or two out of the suggestions, which I tried to compose by combining the feedback of everyone.

In dev branch the "weapon sway formula was tweaked". I don't know what that really means, but the effect I see is the sway pattern's are different. there is alot more up and down motion and side to side motion is much slower. However the actual extent of horizontal sway is still relatively high, and the extent of the vertical sway is pretty much equal. Overall it is better than what devbranch had. But I still feel it doesn't have that same effect as the 1.24 sway. Its still a relatively mindless task to counter the sway and line up shots at extreme range. I am hoping that horizontal reach of sway will be further decreased and the vertical extent will be increased. And sway speed should be a bit faster on prone and crouched stance. The ideal changelog to me would be something like:

• Decreased horizontal sway by another 30% (ontop of the previous 20% we just had chopped off)
  
• Increased vertical sway by 30%
  
• Sped up crouched sway speed by 10%
  
• Sped up prone sway speed by 25%
  
• Hold breath now decreases not only vertical sway speed but also horizontal sway speed by 50% (To avoid the reticule suddenly veering left or right when you hold breath, as it does currently)
  

At least that's the direction I would take. Looking forward to seeing what happens next. And it sounds like Inertia is something that may change the dynamics of sway even more. Can't wait to see it.

Edited July 21, 2014 by -Coulum-