Israel General

[jakerod 254]

Rocket and Revenge: Dispatch 6

I've been watching these lately in addition to the Russian Roulette ones. Both have been quite informative to their respective conflicts.

[Xalteva 10]

Al qassam claimed yesterday that they have captured an Israelian soldier today ... sad for his family,but i hope this helps having some serious negociations with the children-killers Israeli governement !

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html

Edited July 21, 2014 by Xalteva

[mistyronin 1181]

Oh my God, some people are really messed up... Crazy fanatics.

[vilas 473]

Oh my God, some people are really messed up... Crazy fanatics.

yes religion is one of worst things in the world

i remember movie i seen few years ago, it was French documentary movie

document was filming 2 sides, Jews and Muslims

first they shown Muslim school - religious scholl, teacher-preacher was telling kids that "Allah is only god, all other religions are evil, other gods are Satans, other people are animals"

i though "o my gosh, what a nazi, cyco , mad retarded system"

than they shown Israeli school (i had thought that Israel is secular morn state, i had no idea before that it is religious country too)

and in Israeli school i seen following scene:

teacher say to kids "Yahve chosen us to led other people, other people must obey Jews, whole land is promissed to us by god"

and i was in shock "o my gosh, this is the same radical thinking, the same superiority ideas"

i do not remember name of this document movie, but it was French on Planete Channel

Islamists want to force other people to obey Shiria, radical Rabins tell that all non-Jews should be slaves and work for free for Jews (i can find name of Rabins who told that, it is on google)

i can only dedicate Slayer:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/slayer/cult.html

this slayer song tells all what i think

both sides of this conflict should quit all this "superiority" thinking and start think about equality

Edited July 21, 2014 by vilas

[Variable 322]

Oh my God, some people are really messed up... Crazy fanatics.

Crazy indeed. Extremist from both sides suffocate any chance for getting things better. But these such price tag acts (I oppose this term, I rather call it violent hate crimes), are not official poicy of the Israeli goverment. These people are arrested (not as much as I would like) and thrown to jail. However, on the other side, much worse crimes murderous crimes are official policy.

There's a strong Israeli opposition to these people. You know, I talk with you guys here and on the other hand I argue strongly with right-wing Israeli people. The real problem is that in the Palestinian side, at least in Gaza, there's no peace movement as in Israel, because if there was, Hamas would have murdered them. and Israeli left wingers have no colleagues on the other side, and that weakens the Israeli left.

[vilas 473]

The real problem is that in the Palestinian side, at least in Gaza, there's no peace movement as in Israel, because if there was, Hamas would have murdered them.

there is death penalty for apostasy in Islam, a lot of people were killed for saying they will be atheists or Christians or Buddists

i doubt that Jews kills for being atheist and leaving Judais, am i right?

[Tonci87 163]

I think that really depends on who you ask.

Someone who luves by the Tora aka the old testament might give yoh a quite brutal answer.

Now it is true that Israel has done a lot of wrong things, that can't be denied. And you basically locked up the palestinians in a Reservate. I can understand why they are pissed. However I find their acceptance of death very irritating. The mother in the Vice report that basically celebrated her sons death really made me go WTF.

[Variable 322]

there is death penalty for apostasy in Islam, a lot of people were killed for saying they will be atheists or Christians or Buddists

i doubt that Jews kills for being atheist and leaving Judais, am i right?

I am atheist, and there are a lot of atheist in the Israeli authorities, and we all are still alive :)

The Jewish state is not a theocracy although there are forces here that want to see it becoming one. There is no civilian weddings here and there are several Orthodox educational networks that teach that shit you wrote about in your previous post. However, the state is secular in all other respects.

[vilas 473]

no civilian wedding ? than how atteists mary ? (a lot of my friends have only civilian wedding and not even cross Church in other than historical-turistic-photo reason, no matter that they are right wing, but atheists )

[Variable 322]

And you basically locked up the palestinians in a Reservate

I know how it may look like but the security fence you are referring to was established in order to protect Israeli civilians from suicide bombers that murdered Israelis in the hundreds. It wa build to protect, not to lock up anyone, although enclaves were formed this way and that (to my opinion) should be changed.

---------- Post added at 11:07 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

no civilian wedding ? than how atteists mary ? (a lot of my friends have only civilian wedding and not even cross Church in other than historical-turistic-photo reason, no matter that they are right wing, but atheists )

Most of them bite their lips and do the traditional wedding anyway. Others just live as a married couple, it's possible because there are laws that align their rights with officially married couples.

[Tonci87 163]

I see how the security walls were build for safety but they are still kind of wrong.

People inside

can't travel

can't find jobs outside

can't export manufactured goods

without going through all kinds of trouble.

And wares from the outside very often don't reach them, even if it is humanitarian aid.

[Variable 322]

I see how the security walls were build for safety but they are still kind of wrong.

People inside

can't travel

can't find jobs outside

can't export manufactured goods

without going through all kinds of trouble.

And wares from the outside very often don't reach them, even if it is humanitarian aid.

And that's the unfortunate and unintentional price the Palestinian pay for choosing suicide murder as a policy. And yes, it was a cross-organizational Palestinian policy.

And yet Israel should do everything to make it easier on the population, even if it means rerouting the fence in certain places. But you don't really expect Israel to let its civilians die in exploding buses because having a fence will have the some Palestinians "go through all kinds of trouble", do you?

---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 ----------

Even as we speak Israel provides convoys of necessity goods into Gaza.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Variable

[mistyronin 1181]

( Al Jazeera ) John Kerry caught on open microphone discussing Israel’s Gaza offensive in candid terms

Ahead of an interview with Fox New Sunday, a seemingly frustrated Mr Kerry took a telephone call apparently unaware that his words could be overheard.

In what is being taken as a sarcastic reference to Israel’s claims to have launched a limited operation designed to avoid civilian casualties while choking off attacks by Hamas, he told the caller, who he referred to as “Johnâ€: “It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation, it’s a hell of a pinpoint operation.â€

He went on: “We’ve got to get over there. Thank you John. I think John, we ought to go tonight. I think it’s crazy to be sitting around.â€

Mr Kerry’s remarks appear to reflect concern shared by many in the international community about the high civilian death toll in Gaza in recent days. There was widespread condemnation of one incident in particular in which four Palestinian boys, cousins aged between four and nine, were killed as they played on a beach.

[Xalteva 10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

Edited July 21, 2014 by Xalteva

[froggyluv 2130]

yes religion is one of worst things in the world

Most of the problems seem to come from Right wing idealogues of said religion. Liberal Jew, Christians and Muslims tend to better get along if nothing more than tolerate each other. Also religion is just a venue for powerful evil men to divide and control the masses. It could be anything really such as race, nationality, socio-economic, blond hair to brunette's etc.. Nazism wasn't really based on religion, neither was Stalin or the American slave trade and many other mass world crimes. This stuff has been going on since before old Abraham was born and will continue after as well and Atheism is no guard against it. Trust me if there are alien civilizations it's going on there as well despite never having heard of Moses, Jesus or Muhammed.

@Variable: Good point about there seemingly being no counterpart to the Israeli peaceniks. I could see why that would fall pretty flat in Gaza but are there no signs of it in the West Bank? We had a large group of Palestinians living down in the Caribbean and they would tell me that the Hamas types were just 'troublemakers' but then again, they had that luxury.

[mistyronin 1181]

IMO troublemakers and fanatics can be found anywhere, from extremist Jews to soccer hooligans. The problem is the level of support that they receive from certain organizations, and how some Govs tolerate them.

For instance, in the territory of Judea, before the creation of the State of Israel, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in relatively peace. And at that time Jews were a minority and no one bullied them.

The problem was that during the decolonization after the WW2, the world allowed the creation of the artificial state of Israel, without caring a s...t about the people that were living there, and all with the excuse of some 2000 year old religious texts. All with the cooperation of most of European and American countries.

Some argue that was due to the Shoah, but what fault had Palestinians committed, to be expelled of their territory without even being consulted? Two wrongs have never made one right.

So the Jewish illegally migrate to Palestine ( Aliyah Bet ) to escape from the Nazi prosecution and then they treated the natives of Palestine in an almost similar fashion as the Nazis have treated them.

Nowadays some parts of Palestine are turned out in some kind of concentration camps, where no one is allowed in or out unless they go through a long series of controls. And the Israel Gov. is not doing much to prevent Jewish radical settlers to occupy more territory ( under the protection of the IDF ). In fact they have been expanding, stealing more and more territory every day ( just check the borders 20 years ago and now with the wall ).

It's all ridiculous. The creation of the artificial state of Israel was a terrible international crime, preceded by the ethnically cleanse of the natives and rightful citizens of Palestine. It has been the origin more than half a dozen wars and thousands of thousands of dead.

The problem is that at this point, there is no much left to do. Justice is never gonna be served. The only thing that the International Community can do is to stop the expansion of the Israel State ( and if possible return parts to their natives ) for one side. And for the other try to help Palestine Gov to rebuild their part of the country and to prosecute those who attempt against peace.

Because the funny thing is that I'm pretty sure that a majority of Palestinians and Jews want and could live in peace together, as they were before the terrible crime of the creation of Israel.

[Xalteva 10]

@Variable: Good point about there seemingly being no counterpart to the Israeli peaceniks. I could see why that would fall pretty flat in Gaza but are there no signs of it in the West Bank? We had a large group of Palestinians living down in the Caribbean and they would tell me that the Hamas types were just 'troublemakers' but then again, they had that luxury.

That explains why masses of palestinians went out in the streets to celebrate the capturing of that soldier !

[mistyronin 1181]

( Al Jazeera ) Deaths as Israeli tanks shell Gaza hospital

Patients killed in shelling of al-Aqsa Hospital, in third attack on a hospital since start of Israeli offensive.

[froggyluv 2130]

That explains why masses of palestinians went out in the streets to celebrate the capturing of that soldier !

Could you be more specific as I have no idea what your referring to?

[Xalteva 10]

Yesterday , Al Qassam captured an Israeli soldier ! Palestinians celebrated it ...

[vilas 473]

Most of the problems seem to come from Right wing idealogues of said religion. Liberal Jew, Christians and Muslims tend to better get along if nothing more than tolerate each other. Also religion is just a venue for powerful evil men to divide and control the masses. It could be anything really such as race, nationality, socio-economic, blond hair to brunette's etc.. Nazism wasn't really based on religion, neither was Stalin or the American slave trade and many other mass world crimes. This stuff has been going on since before old Abraham was born and will continue after as well and Atheism is no guard against it. Trust me if there are alien civilizations it's going on there as well despite never having heard of Moses, Jesus or Muhammed.

i was not precize:

religion war is because of irrational reasons, you cannot bribe or buy peace solution,

you cannot scare those who believe that their life is not only one and eternity waits,

you can buy a war or peace when it is from social or economical reasons, you cannot do it when comes to belief,

you can also threat those who have a lot to loose,

wars where nation A fights with nation B because one nation took area with natural resources - can be easier fixed via economical help or sanctions ,

war where someone believe he will become martyr and live eternally in heaven are not like this,

you can scary those who afraid to die, you cannot scary (prevent bigger blood) those who do not afraid to die,

thats why it is worst to stop, if one group of people live worse by economical reasons, you can help them and stop riots/violence/hate (Germany post WW2 are best example)

if group of people believe that YOU must follow THEIR god - you cannot stop them other way than military way

Edited July 21, 2014 by vilas

[x3kj 1247]

The problem is that at this point, there is no much left to do. Justice is never gonna be served. The only thing that the International Community can do is to stop the expansion of the Israel State ( and if possible return parts to their natives ) for one side. And for the other try to help Palestine Gov to rebuild their part of the country and to prosecute those who attempt against peace.

Because the funny thing is that I'm pretty sure that a majority of Palestinians and Jews want and could live in peace together, as they were before the terrible crime of the creation of Israel.

As long as the Israeli Lobby has strong influence on US government this will never be the case... And with both states using intensive media brainwashing and censorship i highly doubt there is a point of return. EU has no power at all, they are just marionettes of US government and play in their favor. Just look at Ukraine. US working hard at making Putin enemy no1 in western peoples minds and throw him from his throne, EU serving as yeasayers. After this there wont be any opposition left apart from china.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Fennek

[nikiforos 450]

Yesterday , Al Qassam captured an Israeli soldier ! Palestinians celebrated it ...

Nothing to celebrate but I guess most of them celebrated as a reaction to all the killings and all the devestation that Israel brought to them the last 10-15 days.

Another sad video from Gaza. Injured unarmed man killed by sniper.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f44_1405953311

[maturin 12]

Just look at Ukraine. US working hard at making Putin enemy no1 in western peoples minds and throw him from his throne, EU serving as yeasayers.

The Ukraine crisis shows how the EU is unwilling to damage its economy by slavishly obeying Western demands for sanctions, but whatever.

[Variable 322]

For instance, in the territory of Judea, before the creation of the State of Israel, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in relatively peace. And at that time Jews were a minority and no one bullied them.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The facts is that Arab Israeli conflict predates the establishment of Israel. It's more than a hundred years old struggle over this land. Just one example out of many: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

The problem was that during the decolonization after the WW2, the world allowed the creation of the artificial state of Israel, without caring a s...t about the people that were living there, and all with the excuse of some 2000 year old religious texts. All with the cooperation of most of European and American countries.

Factual nonsense. Jewish had always lived in Israel. During the late 19th century more of them came to this land which was under the Turkish rule, over the years and into the British mandate they have started to build infrastructure, schools, hospitals and roads. Hostilities with the Arabs started back then. By the time WW2 started there was already a de-facto Jewish state in terms of facilities and establishments. WW2 and the holocaust sped up the declaration of the state of Israel but knowing just a bit of history would tell you that the Jewish state would have been erected anyway.

Some argue that was due to the Shoah, but what fault had Palestinians committed, to be expelled of their territory without even being consulted? Two wrongs have never made one right.

The Palestinian Mufti had allied with the Nazi regime, however, at that point in time the Jewish agreed to establish two states over this land, one for Jews and one for the Palestinians. The Palestinians refused and open a war, in which they lose. There was no policy of ethnic cleansing, many of the Arabs just fled to neighboring countries.

So the Jewish illegally migrate to Palestine ( Aliyah Bet ) to escape from the Nazi prosecution and then they treated the natives of Palestine in an almost similar fashion as the Nazis have treated them.

How dare you say that? The Nazis have exterminated the Jews, the Jews never attempted to exterminate the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians which allied with the Nazis had the same plans regarding the Jews. Many of them still do, just go and read the Hamas charter.

Nowadays some parts of Palestine are turned out in some kind of concentration camps, where no one is allowed in or out unless they go through a long series of controls. And the Israel Gov. is not doing much to prevent Jewish radical settlers to occupy more territory ( under the protection of the IDF ). In fact they have been expanding, stealing more and more territory every day ( just check the borders 20 years ago and now with the wall ).

More nonsense. Israel has evacuated the Gaza strip and several settlements in the west bank, and sign a peace treaty with Egypt giving up the Sinai peninsula which it taken in 67. Since 67 Israel is only retreating from land. In the disputed west bank area many settlements were built and will be mostly evacuated in any future peace treaty. Actually, what stopped Israel from retreating from more areas was Hamas who taught Israel that from places it evacuate, it will receive missiles and death tunnels.

It's all ridiculous. The creation of the artificial state of Israel was a terrible international crime, preceded by the ethnically cleanse of the natives and rightful citizens of Palestine. It has been the origin more than half a dozen wars and thousands of thousands of dead.

The state of Israel was established around an EXISTING settlement that were built and inhabitted by Jews for years, alongside arabs. The two people have rights over this land, I'm not saying it's all belong to the Jews but the Arab leaders have decided they want it all for themselves, if only they agreed there would have been two national states in this land. Instead they chose in war, wanting all to themselves. They have no more rights over this land than the Jews since both people have lived here since ever. The only crime commited is the war the Arabs decided to open against the Jewish part.

the terrible crime of the creation of Israel.

This vicious mantra is only said by people who don't know the history of this place.

From someone that demonstrates so little knowledge of the facts, I would expect to pose much less judgment and blatantly erasing the right of millions of people for self definition and independence.