Israel General

[mistyronin 1181]

The facts is that Arab Israeli conflict predates the establishment of Israel.

Do you understand the word relatively? I guess no. Compare all the deaths and events at that time in Palestine with any other territory in the world, and later you compare it with the last 60 years...

Factual nonsense. Jewish had always lived in Israel

Have I said that Jews were not living in Palestine before the WW2? Nope. They did live in Judea, but were a minority. Until the massive illegal immigration, you know Aliyah Bet and so on.

The Palestinian Mufti had allied with the Nazi regime, however, at that point in time the Jewish agreed to establish two states over this land, one for Jews and one for the Palestinians.

How nice that Jews! First, Palestinians go away from your native land, that although we are a small minority we are so nice that we are gonna let you live in a little spaces that we determine, and if we stay in your native land we will make you pay. We don't want your culture. In my dictionary that is call ethnic cleanse.

How dare you say that? The Nazis have exterminated the Jews, the Jews never attempted to exterminate the Palestinians.

Again, your reading comprehension is lacking. Do you understand the word almost?

The Jews have never attempted to exterminate the Palestinians, just close them in certain territories with barbed wire, surrounded by soldiers that will shot them, with thousand controls; again that in my dictionary is a concentration camp ( in fact it was the first Hitler's idea, to close the Jews in Madagascar, allowing them to do whatever they want as long as they don't go, but that later changed in favor of the concentration camps due to economical issues ).

More nonsense. Israel has evacuated the Gaza strip and several settlements in the west bank, and sign a peace treaty with Egypt giving up the Sinai peninsula which it taken in 67. Since 67 Israel is only retreating from land.

Of course, then the settlements like the one of the Vice News and more than are being build are all fiction.

The state of Israel was established around an EXISTING settlement that were built and inhabitted by Jews for years, alongside arabs.

A settlement were Jews were a tiny minority and Muslims a majority. But all changed during WW2 due to the illegal immigration and the Jewish Groups of interest in countries like the USA.

From someone that demonstrates so little knowledge of the facts, I would expect to pose much less judgment and blatantly erasing the right of millions of people for self definition and independence.

Again, the Jews were a notorious tiny minority before WW2, the millions came later.

So of course that all the millions that came later to settle inside the territory of the Palestines and force them out of their homes have no right to self definition nor independence; because they were not from there, they were colons.

What would you think if I come to your house, and alleging millennial rights over the lands force you and your family to remove all your stuff, and "be so kind" to let you live all piled in the toilet, without the right to move.

Pure hypocrisy. The Jews that suffered the Shoah should be the first ones to understand what is to be confined in small spaces, to be mistreated, to see your house and lands taken, remove your Culture, be killed, etc. But instead they act just in the opposite way.

That were the lands under Jewish control in 1947 ( after heavy Jewish immigration ), compare it with an actual map:

http://www.christians-standing-with-israel.org/un-partition-plan-1947-palestine.png (126 kB)

Even the UN proposition was a joke.

http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/map_of_jewish_settlements_in_palestine_in_1947.png

Edited July 21, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Variable 322]

Your post is so full with pseudo morale and factual nonsense, I'll relate only to the most glaring flaws.

How nice that Jews! First, Palestinians go away from your native land, that although we are a small minority we are so nice that we are gonna let you live in a little spaces that we determine, and if we stay in your native land we will make you pay. We don't want your culture. In my dictionary that is call ethnic cleanse.

You seem to think that the partition plan you talk about was proposed by the Jewish, but it was proposed by the UN. The plan split the land in half (percentage wise). It wasn't the Jews plan, the land given to the Jews were mostly the Negev desert which was barren. Although much favorable to the Arab side THE ARABS were the ones who rejected it and opened a vicious war the day after. I guess that's ok in your eyes to do that. This civil war was bloody and during the war land was taken and lost, mostly by the Arab side who practically lost. When you start a war and you lose it you better well be ready to pay the price. The price was they lost land. Well, I guess they should have taken the UN proposal, but they didn't. Israel is not to be blamed for that, the Arabs are. The Jews fought for their own survival in this war the Arabs have started. But this minor fact has no place on your judgement.

Again, your reading comprehension is lacking. Do you understand the word almost?

Sure, because building fences to protect your own citizens and defending them is almost like a systematic annihilation of people because of their race. Congratulations, you have just demonstrated your morale standards.

I can't find the words to define the amazement I feel when I see you, someone I appreciate, tell me that my existence in the land my people have build a state in with their own hands and sweat is a crime. Why does people who know so little of a place so far from them feel that they can pass judgement and take sides? You seem like you are more confident in your views than most Israelis and Palestinians that live here. Where is this arrogance is coming from? Why not just try to learn how complex the situation is instead of taking the role of a morale judge? I studied international relations and I never felt that I have a final verdict over any conflict that I studied. Things like that are so complex you almost never get the full picture no matter how hard you study. I simply fail to understand why people so easily feel confident in telling other people half way around the globe that their existence is a crime. This is just sad, and it is part of the problem, not the solution.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Variable

[Dwarden 1125]

well Hamas considers the human shields as plausible policy,

so that makes it way harder for Israel to strike w/o civilians in way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI

here you can see the Hamas using UN and Ambulance vehicles

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ff_1405874865

you may find some videos where Israel Airforce calls off attack because the 'suspects' are 'evacuated' in ambulance

some history lesson (end of Israel don't warrant Palestine as state)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3e_1405412960

some good videos describing the problem of middle east

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fd_1405801040

anyway some more worthy ones to watch

humor shall ease the tension (just look on what happens in Mosul right now)

notice here http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a2b_1405954994

how the rocket launch site is next to hospital and one directly from Mosque?

Kids rights? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a6c_1405955882

brainwashed to hate enemy since earliest age

when one side teach own kids that it's rightful to kill the other-side at any cost, something is wrong

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/21/iran-supplied-hamas-missile-technology

75km range, payload of 178kg ... imagine it hits - after some iron-dome battery fails ...

also to those who say Jewish immigration started after WW2 it's completely wrong, the movement to resettle in land of the ancestors date back to 1850 or earlier

you shall watch tall the videos I posted to make your own understanding of the problem

the British and French rule to play and betray arabs, the many times promised some % from the land also for Jews, the ill fated UN proposal (totally rejected by Arabs)

but look at the original size of the lands given to Arabs and what is Israel, it's like 12-15%

same goes about the Israel returning Sinai for simple thing as peace with Egypt, because Egypt had the will ...

the question is for how long, maybe the Israel will regret it in future but at least Israel tried to come up with peace terms and the other side agreed ...

same goes about the video explaining that even if Israel cease to exists (let say his population emigrates to Mars or some other holy land elsewhere far away)

then the Palestine state might never happen due to interest of Jordan, Syria and other states around ...

the actual problem of conflict inbetween Israel and the nearby is that one side refuse to accept peace

(even when they were offered 94% of all land Israel occupied, where 6% was not possible to give due to massive security risk)

btw. just lesson from history there were 2 kingdoms and 1 state on the Israel in history plus settlements which were there always since Jews came there from Egypt

it's sick situation anyway and sad that innocent civilians lives are lost

I'm sure lot members of Israel military don't like the fact they need to fire into civilian area at all ...

Edited July 21, 2014 by Dwarden

[mistyronin 1181]

I've been following the situation in Israel for a long long time, same as my parents ( my mom is a teacher and has always been really interested in Judea ). I've studied anthropology & history at the University, specifically all the post-colonialism ( for instance one of my professors was Paz Moreno Feliu one of the main experts about Auschwitz, I studied in the University in Spain ).

And the actual Israel case is closely similar to the US or Australia where their native population have been removed from almost all their lands and closed in small and controlled spaces.

Some members of my family, from my wife side, are of Jewish religion and lived part of the Shoah ( I've quite a multicultural family, my parents are catholic and I'm atheist ).

To make it clear, I'm not against a Jewish state nor against Hebrew Culture ( as long as we talk about NATIVES, not immigrants nor colons ). I respect them and like them ( in fact some of the people that I admire the most are Jewish ).

BUT the actual state of Israel is IMO a terrible joke, a crime as I said before, you just have to check the maps that I showed you. I think anyone with a bit of fair mind would understand it.

If the Jewish families that lived in Palestine for centuries had decided to get the Independence and create their own country, they would have all my support. But again of millions of people that immigrate later have no right IMO ( or the same right as any stranger to reclaim Israel land ).

The funny thing is that my native country, which is not Finland, is one of the closest Israel allies.

also to those who say Jewish immigration started after WW2 it's completely wrong, the movement to resettle in land of the ancestors date back to 1850 or earlier

Well, you just have to check the demographic census of Jewish population and you will see when the main immigration happened... :rolleyes:

Just after the 1949 the Jewish population has multiplicated for a few times, if you want a fast source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Edited July 21, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[sgtsev3n 12]

freedom for palestine.

[Variable 322]

I've been following the situation in Israel for a long long time, same as my parents ( my mom is a teacher and has always been really interested in Judea ). I've studied anthropology & history at the University, specifically all the post-colonialism ( for instance one of my professors was Paz Moreno Feliu one of the main experts about Auschwitz, I studied in the University in Spain ).

Well, with all that rich and impressive background, and your education, if the simplistic conclusion you can come up (or any simplistic conclusion for that matter) with is that the creation of Israel was a crime, and what is happening here is not a struggle but (almost) genocide, then I think all of that education was in vain. And it's sad, very sad. No educational background can justify such flat judgment.

Why is an immigrant that buys a land in a country and comes with his family to settle in the land he bought is a criminal?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Variable

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm not sure the main point is what happened with the creation of Israel, but rather what a solution could be, and most of all, who will be able to negociate.

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm not sure the main point is what happened with the creation of Israel, but rather what a solution could be, and most of all, who will be able to negociate.

The main point of the thread is:

This thread is to talk about the recent events in Israel and all the facts involved. I ask you all to be polite.

IMO the main cause of the actual events are the creation of Israel. I think we all agree that if it hasn't happened we won't be talking about the actual events.

- - - - -

I think all of that education was in vain. And it's sad, very sad. No educational background can justify such flat judgment.

First, I haven't used the word genocide ( quote the message ), but ethnic cleanse.

And it's quite simple, check the map in 1947, and what was the main culture/ethnicity, and then go now to that points and look for that culture ( you have it easy, as you live there ;) ).

If you prefer statistics, at that time Palestinian Muslims were more than 80% of the population of the actual territory of the state of Israel and now they are the 20%.

If after seeing the facts, you still think that my education was in vain just because our opinions differ ( having in mind that yours is completely one-sided biased as a resident in Israel ), well that shows how much your level is...

Why is an immigrant that buys a land in a country and comes with his family to settle in the land he bought is a criminal?

When that immigrant removes the native owners of the land by force, that's a crime. I remember you that the European colons in America also bought the lands ( and worked hard to build a new life ). In fact even the USA Gov. bought most of the actual territory from France, Spain and Russia. No one cared about the actual natives.

What would you think, if for instance 10 million Catholics settled in Israel, and removed the Isreali to the worst zones and close the borders. According to you they would have all the rights.

Edited July 21, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Variable 322]

IMO the main cause of the actual events are the creation of Israel. I think we all agree that if it hasn't happened we won't be talking about the actual events.

That doesn't make it a crime! Has it ever occured to you that the crime was the war that was imposed on the Jewish by the Arabs once they didn't get the whole land for themselves and tried to eliminate the Jews?

---------- Post added at 00:11 ---------- Previous post was at 00:09 ----------

well Hamas considers the human shields as plausible policy,

so that makes it way harder for Israel to strike w/o civilians in way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI

They are talking about it openly, and yet you rarely hear people here critisize them for this cynical and murderous policy.

For a complete picture of the Hamas human shield strategy see here:

[ProfTournesol 956]

But probably Hamas was looking for the type of reaction Israel is having now. It was declining in power and influence, and now the most extremist Hamas members are back on stage.

[mistyronin 1181]

That doesn't make it a crime! Has it ever occured to you that the crime was the war that was imposed on the Jewish by the Arabs once they didn't get the whole land for themselves and tried to eliminate the Jews?

The crime was to remove violently the people that were native from there and their culture, and then flood the new occupied lands with millions of people and colonies ( having as many children as possible to become the majority ). And closing the former citizens to certain areas, under heavy military control and lots of restrictions.

Again, check the map from 1947, it's easy to see it there.

About Hamas, I don't have much to say, they are a religious fanatic group that IMO have lost their common sense and are making their own people suffer.

There are ten thousand better million ways to fight for their nation, a huge amount of them peacefully. As I said before to me launch rockets against civilian zones is pure terrorism, in the same way that the IAF is bombing residential places ( because no, the house of a Hamas leader it is not a military target, Geneve Conventions and so on... ).

---------- Post added at 00:53 ---------- Previous post was at 00:31 ----------

( The Washington Post ) Transcript: President Obama’s July 21 statement on Gaza and Ukraine

The work will not be easy. Obviously, there are enormous passions involved in this and some very difficult strategic issues involved. Nevertheless, I’ve asked John to do everything he can to help facilitate a cessation of hostilities. We don’t want to see anymore civilians getting killed.

Edited July 21, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Xalteva 10]

Huge respect to this doctor :

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12920-letter-from-gaza-by-a-norwegian-doctor

@Dwarden

You should understand that palestinians in Gaza are fully supporting Hamas ! and who are hamas anyway ? people who lost their families due to Israel's terrorism ,it's not some organization that came from Jupiter and started ruling people in the name of Allah ... they won the elections democratically too !

And what do you expect ? ofcourse they want their children not to forget who is the ennemy so they can fight for the cause,israelians are doing the same ! it's not some normal situation we have here ! jews all around the world can't stop reminding everyone of the Shoah but still no one is complaining and many countries are paying for that till now ... you think that american indigens raised their children to love the conqueror who exterminated savagely millions of them ?

Yeah,jews were there before the WW2,and it's not a good argument to be used ,if you insist on defending Israel because since they were living in peace within a muslim majority ... (until zionists asked france help against england) !

I have a huge difficulty finding any logical reason to defend the state of Israel ! and i don't know how you guys ignore the actual facts ... the only legitimity Israel has is their holy book ! how would have been the world's reaction if ,for example, muslims had some promised land ?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Xalteva

[Dwarden 1125]

hamas, sure democratically, guess you forgot the executions of Fatah members ...

[Xalteva 10]

hamas, sure democratically, guess you forgot the executions of Fatah members ...

So what's your point exactly ?

[katipo66 94]

Probably that he has no problem with the bombing civilians because Hamas is labelled terrorists..

Hospitals are also targets, 120 Palestinians were killed in Shujai'iya, a third of them women and children.

Colonisation at its finest.

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

This is my opinion

http://i.imgur.com/yy2cECD.jpg (387 kB)

[Variable 322]

The crime was to remove violently the people that were native from there and their culture

Repeating this lie won't make it the truth. What happened was not "violent removal of natives". These people and their leadership opened a war in an attempt to remove the Jews from this place. It was their declared objective, "throw the Jews to the sea". The Jews fought back and won. It was war the Jews didn't started.

and then flood the new occupied lands with millions of people and colonies

There was no sovereign in this land, no state of any kind was declared at that time. Many jews have came from abroad and bought land from arabs and settled in it. In no dictionary such act is a crime.

( having as many children as possible to become the majority ).

So giving birth is a crime now if you were a Jew in Israel? You really should be ashamed of yourself.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Variable

[vilas 477]

i still see that one side still claims that only one side is clean here and without any sins, and other side is only occupant and evil,

those who ignor calling other to be ignoring, ironic,

ignoring Islamists hate, intolerance, crimes, ignoring Sharia danger, ignoring pushing religion to military politics,

ignoring presence of Jews since few thousands years that couldn't have state because of Ottoman Empire or Egyptian empires in past

looking at rhetoric presented by Arabic countries and Muslim leader (all those preachers , immams etc.) it looks like they want to destroy Jews without any right to existence and it is ignored by some, why ?

Jihadists have thinking "Israel must be vanished" instead of "people should live in peace and cooperate"

both sided have some dirt, not only one side , both sides have victims, not only one side

religion leaders do all , to make peace impossible, cause then all those immams would not have power, cause people would live without Jihad , also Rabins would not have power,

as Dwarden said, Hamas killed Fatah, many Islamists even deny idea of voting, cause voting and democracy is against religion-led kingdom (example - cutting hands or fingers for voting in presidential election by Taliban in A-stan) ,

of course IDF made suffering to local Palestinians, i do not deny it, but as i say - both sides have very influential religious lead

conflict like :

"we are right cause Allah Akbar"

"no, we are right cause Yahve promissed this"

"die, Allah Akbar"

cannot be solved untill someone will not remove its extremist lead (if Muslims would remove their Jihad part, than peace would be possible, cause Jews can remove Haredi Rabins in voting, Haredi guys are 10% , they don't rule, while guys saying about Jihad, Shiria - rule and are not removed from power by average Muslims)

problem is in large percent of pro-religion element in society, if in UK, such muliculti tollerant country, according to The Guardian, 40% Muslims want Shiria law (for all in UK) than it is insane

So giving birth is a crime now if you are a Jew in Israel? You really should be ashamed of yourself.

what is ironic in this, that in UK or France - it is Muslim immigrants who have most of children (and because of industrialization and production located in China/Asia, those children in 20 years will be unemployed angry people frustrated from lack of jobs), so if someone say that it was crime what Jews did, than the same happens now by Muslims in France, UK, Germany, why treat other way Jew and Muslim ? they are both human, and they behave/d identical, both are/were led by Religion leaders, as Crusaders 1000 years ago

what was stopping Israel from independence ?

- Ancient Egypt,

- Roman Empire, than Bisantium,

- Crusaders slaving Arabs, Black and Jews,

- Egypt Empire ,

- Ottoman Empire,

land of Jews was occupied since few thousands years by different empires in that region

Misty - you should know it the best - Finlad get their state in 1918 when Russian Empire collapsed after WW1

Edited July 22, 2014 by vilas

[Xalteva 10]

*Please don't read what is above if you care for your intellectual safety *

vilas,where do you find these informations ? :D in your fantasy book ? ... i suggest you go read a bit of Bertrand Russell (probably the most respectable atheist of all times) books if you want to improve your argumentation against religion ! with your current arguments ,you will be cut into pieces in any serious debate :D

But i think you are a pseudo atheist,an islamophobic to be accurate ... unless you were thinking all this time that religion=islam !

If you claim that jews were persecuted by arab muslims in any moment of history,you will have to show some proofs ! and good luck with that ;)

And crusaders enslaving arabs ... that was a joke i guess ! Saladeen sent them back to Europ crying :D

Edited July 22, 2014 by Xalteva

[Variable 322]

If you claim that jews were persecuted by arab muslims in any moment of history,you will have to show some proofs ! and good luck with that ;)

Your toxic lies are getting out of hand. Do you wish to claim that any of that, or that, or that, or that is not true? Or will you respond with "so what is your point" like you so pathetically replied to Dwarden's post?

Quotes from the above:

"The 1929 Palestine riots, also known as the Western Wall Uprising, the 1929 Massacres, or the Buraq Uprising (Arabic: ثورة البراق‎), refers to a series of demonstrations and riots in late August 1929 when a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem escalated into violence. The riots took the form in the most part of attacks by Arabs on Jews accompanied by destruction of Jewish property. During the week of riots from 23 to 29 August 133 Jews were killed by Arabs and 339 others were injured, while 110 Arabs were killed and 232 were injured, most of them by the Britishpolice while trying to suppress the riots"

"When Husseini eventually met with Hitler and Ribbentrop in 1941, he assured Hitler that 'The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies... namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists"

"Around 175 Jews were killed and 1,000 injured, and up to 300-400 non-Jewish rioters were killed in the attempt to quell the violence. Looting of Jewish property took place and 900 Jewish homes were destroyed. The violence came immediately after the rapid defeat by the British of Rashid Ali, whose earlier coup had generated a short period of national euphoria, and was charged by allegations that Iraqi Jews had aided the British"

"The 1948 Anti-Jewish Riots in Oujda and Jerada, the latter also known as Djerada, occurred on June 7–8, 1948, in the towns of Oujda and Jerada, in the northeast of the French protectorate in Morocco.

In those events 43 Jews and one Frenchman were killed and approximately 150 injured at the hands of local Muslims."

Do you want more? I can keep on all day.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Variable
adding quotes

[hellfire257 3]

No side is innocent in this, nobody. To claim otherwise you'd have to be blinded by something.

[vilas 477]

i have read history of Isreal in WIKI about Egyptian state which in XIII century ban Jews from praying , so yes, in history sources which we have here (not in Arab countries or Iran) we have info about what was in midleages there or post midle-ages , or during Ottoman Empire (which was holding till WW1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

No side is innocent in this, nobody. To claim otherwise you'd have to be blinded by something.

of course Muslims are innocent, there was no single beheading or hanging single gay in history, there was no acid-burning face of any woman, those are all racist lies of nazis and racists ;)

all women with burned by acid faces are made by Jews, Christians, all beheaded gays are by Jews, all beaten native Europeans for drinking beer in London are beaten by Jewish racists ;)

Edited July 22, 2014 by vilas

[Variable 322]

No side is innocent in this, nobody. To claim otherwise you'd have to be blinded by something.

I couldn't agree more. Both sides have made huge historical mistakes.

of course Muslims are innocent, there was no single beheading or hanging single gay in history, there was no acid-burning face of any woman, those are all racist lies of nazis and racists ;)

all women with burned by acid faces are made by Jews, Christians, all beheaded gays are by Jews, all beaten native Europeans for drinking beer in London are beaten by Jewish racists ;)

The history according to Xalteva!

[vilas 477]

Youtube is full of tollernace proofs,

tollerant innocent group of victims goes trough French street when it is suddenly they have to counter attack one woman,

or tollerant peacefull people are walking street and throwing stones against intolerant people who dare to go to Church,

etc.

when i posted such YT movies, Xalteva called them fake videos,

when i asked to show how Jews attack natives in Europe, he found no YT, but called me racist,

fact is that Islamists who believe in Jihad make a lot of problems in the globe (African slaughterhouse, Middle East, Asia, now Western Europe, 9/11 , Moscow/Beslan terrorism)

just like before WW2 some ultra-Catholic guys were making problems to Jewish minority or etc.

Xalteva says he is not Muslim, but he acts like Jihadists, he deny any source that shows that Islamists make problems,

Jihad is similar to Crusades , i know from my friends in London what problems they are facing, i know personally one girl who worked 2 years in France and i know what she was trough

i cannot imagine that someone come to my yard and says "you cannot have dog, you cannot drink wine, and remove Christmas tree from your garden, it is Sharia area since today", one person which was working in London heard such things and had to move to avoid violence, cause Muslim neighbors were very angry about Christmas tree in his window,

Islamists are not tolerant, they should learn tolerance to other religions and not think about any Shiria, people can pray to Spaghetti if they want and noone should tell them how,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-27434176

death for apostasy ? how can it be allowable ?

there is even list on wiki of people killed for becoming Christians or Atheists , there are actual death-threats of people from Pakistan who decided to left god etc. why the hell anyone wants to kill them ? why they cannot live normally without praying in Mosque ? why Islamists in Iraq has to local Christians only one proposal "convert or die", why my friend from Egypt had to escape cause he is orthodox Coptic Chrisitan ? he had to escape with all his family, why they not allow him to live in his Egypt ? why UNESCO heritage Budda statues in A-Stan were blown up ? why Christian WW2 cemeteries in Africa were destroyed ?

we are in XXI century, not in middleages, there is convention of human rights, it is not 1000 years ago that Holy Inquisition burns people alive for saying that earth is round,

Edited July 22, 2014 by vilas

[Dwarden 1125]

So what's your point exactly ?

Fatah is the opposite faction to Hamas, less radical, more tolerant and while they don't like Israel

they came up with some compromises ...

in the end, Hamas employed show of force and brutality to overcome them in 'democratic elections'