Female character models

[nodunit 397]

Oh no I wasn't downplaying it but one must consider how uniforms and equipment act on their own, for example here http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/2/2/4/0/6/eurogamer-2eaqoj.jpg we can see the true thickness of her arms thanks to the bands on the sleeves but the rest of it makes her frame appear larger than it is. http://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/81871/123986116/stock-photo-female-soldier-holding-books-123986116.jpg

Ask any woman (preferrably one you know so they won't take it wierdly) what kind of bra they would wear for running, jogging, jumping and so on and they will tell you a sports bra to keep the cleavage down and stop it from moving

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/4e89f336eab8ea7763000015/this-new-sports-bra-could-detect-a-heart-attack.jpg

http://dzftds8z9s83c.cloudfront.net/wordpress_images/images/production/274/show/female-soldiers.jpg?1377552420

http://popularmilitary.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/monicabrown.jpg

This is why I don't think vests and other accesories need to be tinkered with, because they are put on you won't be seeing anything other than the vest and armor, and its not as though we're talking sheet thin clothing here.

http://www.bodyarmornews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/female-soldiers.jpg

http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/c/images/2012/08/23/261477/original.jpg

http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/c/images/2012/08/23/261479/original.jpg

http://chivethebrigade.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/women-soldiers-01_17_12-920-20.jpg

The thing is when you start tinkering with skeletons and core functionalities you start running into headaches not just from that system alone but how it translates to others..for example all current animations are designed for the current skeleton, if you make a new and shorter one then you run into stretching model parts along the old animations, meaning you need a whole new set just to make up for what could be but a few inches...factor in that you also need to be sure that the arms bend a bit more to grip the steering wheel, hold weapons properly, fingers don't sing into magazines and so on...then you run into the gameplay aspect of people accusing others of cheating because they have the ability to hide a few pixels lower.

And lastly...we have the immature behavior that tends to pop up from many guys when anything indicating a female is nearby in a game, especially a person.

Edited June 1, 2014 by NodUnit

[Wiki 1558]

IMHO, I say yes for girls in the armed forces but no in effective combat units.

Why?

3 things:

-women naturally lose blood which is absolutely a bad thing for units who do recon or deep penetration missions - as they can be spotted by hounds if the enemy has some.

-it has been proven that guys in a squad/platoon/unit will do more stupid things/put themselves at jeopardy much often if the wounded soldier is a girl. The negative impact upon the unit will be higher for a girl rather than for a guy.

-the negative impact upon public opinion when a soldier is KIA is much higher if it's a girl

[vegeta897 13]

IMHO, I say yes for girls in the armed forces but no in effective combat units.

Why?

3 things:

-women naturally lose blood which is absolutely a bad thing for units who do recon or deep penetration missions - as they can be spotted by hounds if the enemy has some.

-it has been proven that guys in a squad/platoon/unit will do more stupid things/put themselves at jeopardy much often if the wounded soldier is a girl. The negative impact upon the unit will be higher for a girl rather than for a guy.

-the negative impact upon public opinion when a soldier is KIA is much higher if it's a girl

And those 3 things have what impact, exactly, on a video game?

[Wiki 1558]

You mean, on a video game that tries to be realistic? A simulation? Yes, it's relevant.

[vegeta897 13]

I just don't see them as compelling enough points to even pass for the "realism" argument. If my sister wanted to enlist, do you think if I told her any one of those reasons, she'd reconsider?

"Melanie, you're too stupid for combat. Melanie, if you die, America will cry a little more!"

[Wiki 1558]

It's not about the girls' choice, but the consequences of this choice.

Girls can be as good as guys - or even better, but a girl in the fight, wounded or killed is not something occident is ready for.

[vegeta897 13]

But maybe it's ready in 2035 ;)

[roshnak 41]

It's not about the girls' choice, but the consequences of this choice.

Girls can be as good as guys - or even better, but a girl in the fight, wounded or killed is not something occident is ready for.

How do you think soldiers react to seeing dead women and children laying by the side of the road, something that wasn't an entirely uncommon sight during the invasion of Iraq? How do you exlain the over 800,000 women who served in the Soviet Army during WWII?

We really don't need to be having an argument about whether it's realistic for women to be portrayed in Arma 3. It is.

[Wiki 1558]

How do you think soldiers react to seeing dead women and children laying by the side of the road, something that wasn't an entirely uncommon sight during the invasion of Iraq? How do you exlain the over 800,000 women who served in the Soviet Army during WWII?

We really don't need to be having an argument about whether it's realistic for women to be portrayed in Arma 3. It is.

It's not the same seeing an unknown civilian dead along the road and seeing someone you know, who you trained with, fought with, lived with, etc... getting shot in front of you.

Concerning the Red Army, 1) it was a survival fight as nazis wanted to eradicate soviet people and 2) russian/soviet people don't have the same culture as us.

[roshnak 41]

It's not the same seeing an unknown civilian dead along the road and seeing someone you know, who you trained with, fought with, lived with, etc... getting shot in front of you.

Concerning the Red Army, 1) it was a survival fight as nazis wanted to eradicate soviet people and 2) russian/soviet people don't have the same culture as us.

Yeah, apparently our culture is pretty gross and sexist. This thread was doing pretty good at staying away from the usual, "I don't see no kitchens in Arma!" comments that usually show up in these threads, too.

[nodunit 397]

You guys need to stop comparing video games to reality in regards to how you would behave in a given situation.

Things work differently in reality, if you see someone get shot in a game you don't care so much because your brain tells you its not real, if you watch someone die in a video feed from the real world it can be uncomfortable.

But watching or seeing someone dead right before your eyes is another thing entirerly, it is something you can't really explain or understand how it feels until you see it for yourself.

The moment time seems to freeze and surreal kicks in, denial goes into play but your mind knows its real. Adrenaline kicks in, regret and so on...was it someone you knew and know you will never see again, hear them laugh or joke.

Was it perhaps someone you didn't know...yet your mind wanders, did they have family, friends, children, what gap will they leave?

Worse yet is when you watch someone die right in front of you with the regret that you could have done something, and yet you were unable to either because it happened so fast, you froze or other circumstances.

Video games are different and you should stop comparing them to the real thing, women and girls have been playing in games of all sorts be them mmo's, first person shooters and so on...counter strike, battlefield and you know what? Nobody cares if they die because they aren't actually DEAD and you had no tie to them. Okay so my friend I'm in vent with just got killed, "OH dang someone got me" she says over the mic, or maybe she gets upset...either way my brain doesn't care, it doesn't feel a pang of regret or sadness and if anything if she were close to my position it just puts me into alert mode to save my own ass.

In reality there is far more at stake, in video games your character just hits the ground. There is no comparison and if you really care that much about the opposite gender in a video game enough that you feel you have to go out of your way and put your avatars life on the line to save them every single time then you need to see a therapist or someone about it...because you're in a dangerous zone of blurring the lines between reality and gaming.

Edited June 2, 2014 by NodUnit

[vegeta897 13]

By "you guys" I assume you just mean Wiki. He was the one using real life reasons (outdated ones at that, compared to the game's setting) to justify why there shouldn't be female combatants.

[nodunit 397]

He and all the others that would use that reasoning, it was rampant on the feedback tracker so I just assume address any and all that would use that reasoning.

[FrankManic 13]

Again - I do not care whether anyone thinks it is "appropriate" to have women represented in military roles. I really, really don't. That's your problem that you need to resolve.

I don't want unique animations. Everyone moves about the same way when they're carrying 70lbs of armor and weapons.

I don't want voice acting. It's not particularly important to gameplay and it's something the community can do themselves very easily.

I don't want every piece of gear tweaked.

I'm asking for one rigged head, one "underwear" body, one "western uniform" body, one shorts and t-shirt body, and one pants and blouse body.

That's it.

That is all I am asking for.

That will create a base of assets that can be expanded on as needed by community modders.

[dostunuz 10]

Again - I do not care whether anyone thinks it is "appropriate" to have women represented in military roles. I really, really don't. That's your problem that you need to resolve.

I don't want unique animations. Everyone moves about the same way when they're carrying 70lbs of armor and weapons.

I don't want voice acting. It's not particularly important to gameplay and it's something the community can do themselves very easily.

I don't want every piece of gear tweaked.

I'm asking for one rigged head, one "underwear" body, one "western uniform" body, one shorts and t-shirt body, and one pants and blouse body.

That's it.

That is all I am asking for.

That will create a base of assets that can be expanded on as needed by community modders.

Why not "Eastern Uniform"? do females exist in west only?.

[Mirek 166]

Why not "Eastern Uniform"? do females exist in west only?.

You did noticed that East side in A3 are moslims, didnt you?

[almanzo 144]

IMHO, I say yes for girls in the armed forces but no in effective combat units.

Why?

3 things:

-women naturally lose blood which is absolutely a bad thing for units who do recon or deep penetration missions - as they can be spotted by hounds if the enemy has some.

-it has been proven that guys in a squad/platoon/unit will do more stupid things/put themselves at jeopardy much often if the wounded soldier is a girl. The negative impact upon the unit will be higher for a girl rather than for a guy.

-the negative impact upon public opinion when a soldier is KIA is much higher if it's a girl

Yet women serve in combat roles in armies around the entire globe. This is nothing but ethnocentric bullshit. I served with women as a conscript, I was an engineer. We shared camp with the second batallion of our army, they had women in all levels. Female recruits, privates, sargents, leutenants and captains served with me. Their effort was just as good as their male counter parts.

[instagoat 133]

IMHO, I say yes for girls in the armed forces but no in effective combat units.

Why?

3 things:

-women naturally lose blood which is absolutely a bad thing for units who do recon or deep penetration missions - as they can be spotted by hounds if the enemy has some.

-it has been proven that guys in a squad/platoon/unit will do more stupid things/put themselves at jeopardy much often if the wounded soldier is a girl. The negative impact upon the unit will be higher for a girl rather than for a guy.

-the negative impact upon public opinion when a soldier is KIA is much higher if it's a girl

1: Okay, I give you that. Nevertheless, german KSK is allowing women into their admission program (Equal standards, so no female has passed yet afaik, but that's where you're pushing the limits of male physiology, so it's no real surprise), so it can't be that much of a problem. When in doubt, shoot the dog.

2: Where's your sources? Anybody can claim anything on the internet. Baseless arguments from authority don't prove anything. The psychological problem is artificially made: we value women differently, but that is sociological not biological. If men would treat women as equals instead of sub humans (which is what this is about, at bottom.), this would not be as problematic.

3: Same point. Culturally ingrained sexual bias.

There are undeniable physiological and minor psychological differences between men and women. However, as the technology level rises and physiological differences are equalized through training and equipment short term and evolution in the mid term. (such as evidenced by the constant changes in age of maturity we are experiencing, as well as hormonal differences across generations caused by exposure to our own society.) People who argue against women in combat roles should either plainly state that their interest lies in sticking with the established order for conservative/comfort reasons or actually put up some evidence why women in trenches is a bad idea.

[vegeta897 13]

I feel like I shouldn't even continue dignifying Wiki's post by to responding to it again, but let's also not forget that men bring their own set of problems to war that women do not. I'm sure I don't need to go into detail here.

[blackpixxel 53]

Women as soldiers in Arma 3 is the one topic, but what about female civilians??

They were not able to carry weapons in Arma 2. But they made the scenarios believable. Why does Bohemia Interactive not the same for Arma 3. I am not sure why, but it makes the impression of lazyness. It is the same with bipods, better tank interieur, a working medic system and so on. There was such a potential in Arma 3, but now there aren't many new features, but some good features of Arma 2 are gone...

The expansion pack may solve this issue, on the Devblog BI said that the expansion will bring new civilian assets.

[vegeta897 13]

Let's not confuse laziness with compromises. If they took the time to add everything the community ever requested, the game would still be in development as we speak. Keep the faith in BIS and they will continue to slowly bring what we want. Shooting from vehicles and a 3D editor are confirmed on the way. These are long-requested features and they are coming for free. Let's not toss the word 'lazy' around.

[roshnak 41]

Women as soldiers in Arma 3 is the one topic, but what about female civilians??

Female civilians wouldn't require any less work than female soldiers. The total amount of art work required is basically the same. At the same time, it becomes more obvious and less acceptable if female civilians are using the same animation set as males, almost necessitating more mocap and animation work, at which point there's really no excuse at all for not including female soldiers.

Basically, if you are going to include female civilians, there's no (non-political) reason not to include female soldiers.

Let's not confuse laziness with compromises. If they took the time to add everything the community ever requested, the game would still be in development as we speak. Keep the faith in BIS and they will continue to slowly bring what we want. Shooting from vehicles and a 3D editor are confirmed on the way. These are long-requested features and they are coming for free. Let's not toss the word 'lazy' around.

The thing is, BIS sometimes makes compromises in weird areas.

Also, it's great that we are finally getting the ability to fire from cargo positions and a 3D editor, but those features have been requested since OFP and Arma, respectively. Which means that we have been waiting, conservatively speaking, betweem 7 and 10 years for those features. Both features were also present early on in VBS2, so it's not like it hasn't been possible to implement them until now. It just took this long for BIS to decide that they were worth implementing.

[FrankManic 13]

The long and the short of it is that the "Western" uniform is just fatigues, while the CSAT uniform is some kind of advanced environment suit. If we re-texture the fatigues uniform to another camo pattern it can stand in for the uniform of just about any military, including CSAT - Their officers apparently wear normal fatigues with HEX camo patterns. On the other hand the CSAT uniform, with its distinctive AC unit and other features, cannot be swapped to NATO MPT without being very obvious, nor can it be readily texture swapped to represent various contemporary military units.

Basically - The "western" fatigues are just easier to apply to a wider variety of military forces. Which isn't to say I wouldn't love to have a properly modelled CSAT female environment suit, but if I am only going to ask for an absolute minimum then fatigues are the most widely applicable uniform type. Again, my hope is that with properly rigged and animated female heads and bodies it would be relatively easy for the community to fill in the gaps - Convert the CSAT armor to a female variant, for instance, or handle wet-suits and helicopter coveralls.

[faire 10]

2: Where's your sources? Anybody can claim anything on the internet. Baseless arguments from authority don't prove anything. ...

3: Same point. Culturally ingrained sexual bias.

I haven't quite found your sources. Are you sure you are not just following a culturally ingrained biass?

[motorizer 12]

This thread is about character models, and the OP specifically asked for it not to turn into a circular argument about the rights and wrongs of female soldiers.

So if you can't replace the words "women" or "female soldiers" in your post with the words "character models" you are probably off topic.

OP have you seen Zeealex's mod WIP?