MANW Negative Impact

[StrongHarm 13]

I'm seeing a seriously negative impact on the community caused by MANW. I published a new mission to steam and immediately had a number of negative reviews with no comments saying why. Before you scream false conspiracy, consider the facts;

I published Close Air Support (Day2) and it slowly climbed to the top of the Steam Missions list. BIS featured it in a SITREP and even more people subscribed. At that point I had about 40k subscribers and 500+ positive ratings. When the MANW contest was announced the mission immediately received 20 negative ratings.

Post-MANW I published another CAS mission (ECAS). It immediately received a stack of negative ratings, again with no comments supporting why it was voted down. The result was that this mission that I'd spent hundreds of hours on stayed on the first page of the workshop for about as long you'd see a mission that took 10 minutes to create called 'Go Kill Bunny FooFoo'. Despite the reviews (below) by the people who have actually been able to find it, it now has four stars and is buried in obscurity. I believe that people interested in competing in MANW have voted my mission down believing it's the same as voting their mission up.. but the truth is that it has no direct impact on the contest...

I tried posting my mission information to the General Forum in hopes that people would be able to find and enjoy it. A moderator moved the post and tagged my account with an infraction. I've never had any other infraction on the boards, but here I was with a big red "I" on my forehead for trying to unbury my mission. I watched moved posts for the next few days and none of them were given an Infraction. The worst part is that my first thought was:

"I wonder if this moderator is a mission builder competing in MANW... "

I know BIS chooses their moderators carefully and immediately retracted that notion.. but it's sad that I had to wonder...

Based on the lack of integrity of some people these days, and the negative impact of MANW on the community, I don't plan on participating. I don't want money or recognition. I want people to be able to enjoy the missions I put my time and heart into. And to whomever started my name floating around the internet as someone to watch for MANW.. you put a target on my forehead.. right next to that big red "I".

I've sent communications to the appropriate people at BIS with suggestions to prevent this problem, but have received no reply.

I might start developing missions again after this contest is concluded, but for now.. those people win.. StrongHarm out.

EDIT: To be clear; I think BIS had a great idea with MANW, and I don't disparage the A3 Community overall.. it's just a few people with integrity issues who are making an impact. I guess they're in every crowd.

Edited May 18, 2014 by StrongHarm
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[the_demongod 31]

I don't think there is anything that bothers me more than someone who would rate down a mission without offering constructive criticism. It's really rude, actually. It's happened to me too.

CAS Day 2 and ECAS are still my two favorite missions in arma, and I'm sad to see you have to go. I hope that you return soon and continue creating great content.

Cheers

[RushHour 11]

The last idiot is yet to be born!

I haven´t played many user missions but i definitely played your Close Air Support (Day2) and it was brilliant.

[Tonci87 163]

Dude that really sucks. I really hope that there aren´t people so desperate and eager that they go around and downvote other missions becuase of the competition, But yes things usually get very ugly once money gets involved....

[L3TUC3 32]

Not surprised you got an infraction for posting the thread in general discussion, just stick with the MANW page and the user mission forum as that's what they're for. I wouldn't want to see the general discussion be flooded with MANW entries.

That said, ECAS and close air support day two are really good. I dunno why there's so much negativity on it, maybe they take offense to you lifting actual combat comms or something? But without any comments it's hard to figure out.

Just do what you do and don't worry too much about it.

[[evo] dan 79]

Not surprised you got an infraction for posting the thread in general discussion, just stick with the MANW page and the user mission forum as that's what they're for. I wouldn't want to see the general discussion be flooded with MANW entries.

That said, ECAS and close air support day two are really good. I dunno why there's so much negativity on it, maybe they take offense to you lifting actual combat comms or something? But without any comments it's hard to figure out.

Just do what you do and don't worry too much about it.

^this. If you have no intention of entering it, then don't worry. If the competition destroys the community, then BIS only have themselves to blame for it.

[StrongHarm 13]

Let me break it down a little further for you. My sole concern isn't that MANW is bringing out the worst in some people.. my concern is that the extreme amount of time I put into a mission will be wasted after my mission is buried by misguided people who think it will increase their chances in the competition. I know you're a smart guy L3tuc3.. read my OP again. This can't be discounted by the fact that I put real coms in my last mission.. empirical data shows that the problem didn't exist until MANW kicked off and my name was being thrown around as a contender. Also, where the infraction is concerned, it wasn't the root problem.. my wondering if it had to do with this competition describes the extent of the problem.

I appreciate your effort man, but it's difficult to suggest a solution to a problem with no solution.. unless you downplay the problem... but I see that your intentions are good. I think after reading the post again you'll see that I wasn't looking for advice, only making observations. I say this amicably.

Not surprised you got an infraction for posting the thread in general discussion, just stick with the MANW page and the user mission forum as that's what they're for. I wouldn't want to see the general discussion be flooded with MANW entries.

That said, ECAS and close air support day two are really good. I dunno why there's so much negativity on it, maybe they take offense to you lifting actual combat comms or something? But without any comments it's hard to figure out.

Just do what you do and don't worry too much about it.

[.kju 3245]

Maybe just don't put as many emphasis on steam and promote your work (more) on the other channels:

BI forum, Armaholic, Play withSIX, reddit and other community sites

[maddogx 13]

@StrongHarm: Public discussion of the forum moderation is normally not allowed (rule §18), but for the sake of keeping this thread on track let's clear a few things up:

1. From what I can see, the moderator in question gave you a warning, not an infraction (two different things).

2. Considering that you broke two rules at the time (cross-posting and posting in the wrong section), a warning seems to have been justified.

3. As far as I am aware, none of the BI forum moderators are participating in MANW. I know for a fact that one who gave you the warning is not, so that's one conspiracy theory we can put to rest.

If you have any further questions or comments related to the moderation of this forum, please look here or contact a moderator directly.

[[frl]myke 14]

I can confirm that i'm not participating in the MANW contest (the last time i've made a mission was shortly after ArmA 2 release). And until now i didn't knew that StrongHarm does (at least i haven't any memories about it). Also i don't think that a warning has any effect on your reputation, the community tends to make it's opinion based on behaviour and actions, not collected warnings/infractions. And from that point, your reputation is really good.

[Dwarden 1125]

btw. strongharm I would not worry that much about some negative ratings on STEAM , that's normal there ... 10 negative reviews out of 40k subscribers ... that's ratio many devs just dream about ;)

[Belbo 462]

I know where you're coming from with this, as I know how much time one can spend on a mission and how frustrating it can be if all the work doesn't get acknowledged well. But the way it comes across is that you're basically accusing each and every contestant of the MANW with the suspicion of dishonesty. That's not a very nice thing to do, even though you've been very careful to phrase it neutral.

empirical data shows that the problem didn't exist until MANW kicked off and my name was being thrown around as a contender.

I think we're rather talking about a causality-correlation-problem here. Another possible explanation for your experience may have been that the MANW brought more missions to the peoples attention and reduced the inhibitions to vote on missions without properly reviewing. As simple as that. If I'd be to vote on a mission, I wouldn't bother about it without writing a commentary or an explanatory statement. Maybe the MANW stimulated a less 'formal' environment for voting on missions, or lessened the threshold and thereby lead to more negative votes without reviews overall. If your accusations would be true, it would be a phenomenon that more contestants would experience. The correlation between the opening of the MANW, your name on the list of possible contenders and the negative votes your missions received may certainly be coincidental. At least that would be the way I would want to see it, if I were you. Otherwise the only negative impact of the MANW would have been to foster your paranoia.

And I can definitely join in on the chant of not being too dependent on the votes on steam-workshop. A good review here on the board or on armaholic is worth thousands of votes on steam.

[chrisb 196]

If you choose to put anything out into the public domain, you’ll need to grow a thick skin.

I understand that its upsetting to have hard work attacked, but if your confident the missions are good, then why worry. Those that have played your missions before and enjoyed them, will seek them out..;)

[StrongHarm 13]

Agreed and understood Maddogx and Myke. I won't dispute your decisions and the focus of my comment wasn't my interaction with a moderator.. but rather the effect of MANW on my perception. I probably shouldn't have used that as a contrast. Sorry for the confusion.

I know BIS chooses their moderators carefully and immediately retracted that notion.. but it's sad that I had to wonder...

---------- Post added at 05:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

@Dwarden, oh I agree. I'm happy so many people were able to enjoy my earlier missions. My current mission has hovered at 5-10% negative ratings with no feedback. The result is 3000 subscribers after a months time. My earlier CAS missions in contrast had 10k+. I'm sure there could be a lot of variables involved with a slow start.. but the disproportionate ratings sure look like the culprit.

@OtherComments - My skin was well thickened through hell and out the other side.. I assure you. My issue isn't that someone hurt my feelings. My concern is the theory that if MANW wasn't going on, more people would have had the chance to enjoy my latest mission. I wouldn't care if I received negative comments.. everyone has their own taste in missions. It's about knowing I provided something to the community equal to my effort in the creation. If my mission gets intentionally buried then it nullifies the value because people won't know it's there so they can enjoy it. I'm a Business Intelligence Architect by trade and understand well statistical variance and misinterpretation of data.. I did see a spike in non-commented negative rating numbers consistent with the time MANW was announced.. that's the empirical data that led me to my conclusion. Conspiracy theories typically involve someone gathering unsupported and unrelated data to prove some strange fear. I started with the data and ended with the conclusion.

My 'not worrying about it' is stepping back and letting the variables involved with MANW pass me by. I have all the money I need.. and based on others actions, they may be desperate. I'll just fly my missions for now and enjoy them while hoping others will too. Understand; this isn't me being angry, this is me being aware... and sharing it.

[Dwarden 1125]

I would say some of the negative feedback is probably influenced by bugs in the game which we work hard to ensure they die en masse ;)

the nearly daily DEV changelog and rapid testing of performance builds hopefully proves it

[StrongHarm 13]

Oh no doubt Dwarden. If people don't see the progress it's not the fault of this product or dev team. Being someone on an agile process dev team I can appreciate the challenges and just how well you guys are handling them. The scope is enormous.

Yes, I would expect a certain amount of my mission ratings to reflect the core product rather than my missions.. and that's ok. What I've witnessed is a dramatic spike.. a common abrupt variance.. rather than a fluid constant deviation.

What you've done with Arma3 is amazing though... even the naysayers will see one day.

All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.

-Sun Tzu

Here's what I said to one of those naysayers to try and explain:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?176810-I-give-up!&p=2676093&viewfull=1#post2676093

[kremator 1065]

You see once money is involved, people become shits. All eyes to the bankers please!

Just need to name those posting positive or negative votes.

I'll be interested in seeing who wins.